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[shraeye]

I stay silent.  You wrong.

[Debatepro]

I think the universe might collapse because I agree with MiX about this [singular] point and I'm not changing my vote [yet]. I just checked she never voted for LaLight or seems like even waved the FoS. Please explain [@faust] with references as those seem to be lacking, in general???

That is not what I am saying though. I say that

- there is scum on LaLight iff one of raerae/MiX is scum
- the people on LaLight are kind of scummy
- thus, likely, there is scum on LaLight, which implies by the first point that one of raerae/MiX is scum.

I'm going to rephrase what you say in some if/then logic:
1. If raerae or MiX are scum, then someone who is scum is on LaLight.
2. People on LaLight are scummy
3. Because scum are likely on LaLight, vote RaeRae.

Makes absolutely no sense to me. However, I'm a newb so... if your logic holds then Vote: MiX

[faust]

Reasoning isn't the same as information regarding roles. The scum already know if you are town or scum, so knowing your reasoning is worthless to them. Unless your reasoning is guaranteed to help the scum by painting a guaranteed town in a bad light (which you can only know if you are mason or scum), your reasoning won't hurt the town. Give me a hypothetical situation where your reasoning would hurt the town, and I'll eat my words.

Hypothetical 1: I am a Doctor. I have targeted Ozle at night. Noone died. Now I have information that makes me think Ozle is town. But I will not share my reasoning.

Hypothetical 2: Ozle is a Cop. He makes a post in which he somehow references Cops, as a breadcrumb for his role. I notice it. Now explaining this reasoning will out Ozle as the Cop, which I certainly do not want.

Bon appetit.

[faust]

I think the universe might collapse because I agree with MiX about this [singular] point and I'm not changing my vote [yet]. I just checked she never voted for LaLight or seems like even waved the FoS. Please explain [@faust] with references as those seem to be lacking, in general???

That is not what I am saying though. I say that

- there is scum on LaLight iff one of raerae/MiX is scum
- the people on LaLight are kind of scummy
- thus, likely, there is scum on LaLight, which implies by the first point that one of raerae/MiX is scum.

I'm going to rephrase what you say in some if/then logic:
1. If raerae or MiX are scum, then someone who is scum is on LaLight.
2. People on LaLight are scummy
3. Because scum are likely on LaLight, vote RaeRae.

Makes absolutely no sense to me. However, I'm a newb so... if your logic holds then Vote: MiX

1 should be "if and only if"

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote Count 1.11
"What each individual wills is obstructed by everyone else, and what emerges is something that no one willed." — Friedrich Engels

MiX (4): Debatepro, shraeye, arishipshape, raerae
raerae (3): Joseph2302, DatSwan, faust
mail-mi (3): LaLight, silverspawn, MiX
LaLight (1): EFHW
DatSwan (1): Uncleeurope

Not Voting (1): mail-mi

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends February 01, 2019, 05:00:00 pm. That's in about 6 hours.

[arishipshape]

Reasoning isn't the same as information regarding roles. The scum already know if you are town or scum, so knowing your reasoning is worthless to them. Unless your reasoning is guaranteed to help the scum by painting a guaranteed town in a bad light (which you can only know if you are mason or scum), your reasoning won't hurt the town. Give me a hypothetical situation where your reasoning would hurt the town, and I'll eat my words.

Hypothetical 1: I am a Doctor. I have targeted Ozle at night. Noone died. Now I have information that makes me think Ozle is town. But I will not share my reasoning.

Hypothetical 2: Ozle is a Cop. He makes a post in which he somehow reference Cops, as a breadcrumb for his role. I notice it. Now explaining this reasoning will out Ozle as the Cop, which I certainly do not want.

Bon appetit.

1. In this scenario, you have hard information about what occurred (you doctoring Ozle). This is acceptable to keep secret (like my role). What I am asking of you is reasoning. If you said "Ozle said such and such towny thing, I think he's towny" this wouldn't give away your role. You don't have to give your information, just your reasoning. Now admittedly you may have such hard information (you may be a fellow mason). However, you said

When you think about it, it's really quite obvious that LaLight is telling the truth.

Which implies that reasoning brought you to the conclusion that LaLight is telling you the truth, not hard doctor or mason information, and that others can deduce this as well. Im asking for the reasoning, not the hard information.
2. In this scenario, you aren't sure Ozle is a cop. He could be trying to direct the scum to kill him instead of the real cop. Pointing this out would assist Ozle in his endeavors, and allow the cop to survive another night.

Guess I don't have to dust off my fork for a while longer yet!

[faust]

2. In this scenario, you aren't sure Ozle is a cop. He could be trying to direct the scum to kill him instead of the real cop. Pointing this out would assist Ozle in his endeavors, and allow the cop to survive another night.

He isn't though. You will notice that in the scenario I posted, Ozle is the Cop. You are talking about some other scenario and I don't know why, as it is clearly not the scenario I provided as an example.

[arishipshape]

2. In this scenario, you aren't sure Ozle is a cop. He could be trying to direct the scum to kill him instead of the real cop. Pointing this out would assist Ozle in his endeavors, and allow the cop to survive another night.

He isn't though. You will notice that in the scenario I posted, Ozle is the Cop. You are talking about some other scenario and I don't know why, as it is clearly not the scenario I provided as an example.

In the example, you don't KNOW he is the cop. I'm assuming you aren't a role cop as you didn't say you are. If you don't KNOW he is the cop, you can't know for sure what would help or hurt him. Sure, he is the cop, but from your perspective he could be acting as a decoy and it could assist the town to help him get NKed.

[MiX]

I'm perplexed by the instant acceptance LaLight's claim has gotten. When faust and DatSwan were masons, they were suspected for Days. True, it was mostly scum trying to spin the mason fakeclaim story, but I don't think I've ever seen faust assign the IC label so easily.

I'm instantly accepting LaLight's claim BECAUSE of that game. Scum are either very ballsy and want to create history by bluffing the mason claim, or there's no reason to not trust LaLight.

Besides, it's better to wait for D2 to wonder about that.

1. I said "not get away with not giving info to the town". I suspect your scum, so no info for you.

You do know you're not in a QT with faust: everything you say will be heard by "town".

I think the universe might collapse because I agree with MiX about this [singular] point and I'm not changing my vote [yet]. I just checked she never voted for LaLight or seems like even waved the FoS. Please explain [@faust] with references as those seem to be lacking, in general???

That is not what I am saying though. I say that

- there is scum on LaLight iff one of raerae/MiX is scum
- the people on LaLight are kind of scummy
- thus, likely, there is scum on LaLight, which implies by the first point that one of raerae/MiX is scum.

I'm going to rephrase what you say in some if/then logic:
1. If raerae or MiX are scum, then someone who is scum is on LaLight.
2. People on LaLight are scummy
3. Because scum are likely on LaLight, vote RaeRae.

Makes absolutely no sense to me. However, I'm a newb so... if your logic holds then Vote: MiX

Although this is horribly incorrect (as is faust's logic, really), this is exactly what I expected from you: I am scummier than raerae because I was one of the "scummy" people on his wagon, right? Also, weren't you voting for me already?

[arishipshape]

1. I said "not get away with not giving info to the town". I suspect your scum, so no info for you.

You do know you're not in a QT with faust: everything you say will be heard by "town".

With that comment, I was trying to remind everyone that I don't think i'm dealing with town in these arguments. I immediately give the rest of my reasoning in 2.

[MiX]

1. I said "not get away with not giving info to the town". I suspect your scum, so no info for you.

You do know you're not in a QT with faust: everything you say will be heard by "town".

With that comment, I was trying to remind everyone that I don't think i'm dealing with town in these arguments. I immediately give the rest of my reasoning in 2.

Do you think we forgot? Because I know you forgot about something:

You also never answered this:

Thoughts on LaLight DatSwan raerae shraeye EFHW in no particular order?

This was so you would reread and get a better sense of your scumreads, but now that's not important, instead look at DatSwan raerae mail-mi.

Please do the above, we don't have much time.

[arishipshape]

1. I said "not get away with not giving info to the town". I suspect your scum, so no info for you.

You do know you're not in a QT with faust: everything you say will be heard by "town".

With that comment, I was trying to remind everyone that I don't think i'm dealing with town in these arguments. I immediately give the rest of my reasoning in 2.

Do you think we forgot? Because I know you forgot about something:

You also never answered this:

Thoughts on LaLight DatSwan raerae shraeye EFHW in no particular order?

This was so you would reread and get a better sense of your scumreads, but now that's not important, instead look at DatSwan raerae mail-mi.

Please do the above, we don't have much time.

Gladly. Give me 20-30 minutes to re-read them.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote count edited in where I said it would be, it's only accurate to that post.

Doesn't look like there have been any votes since then, but I don't want any confusion. (Sorry, this was kind of a bad time for me to do a VC but Joth is VLA, I'll be more available starting in a couple hours.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Random question to UoS:

Can there be multiple scum teams, each consisting of more than one person, in the game?

Yes, multiball is possible under my setup rules.

[EFHW]

vote: mail-mi

[Joseph2302]

Anyways, regarding the rules of masons, is there guaranteed to be a mason? Or is it possible that the scum are taking a gamble on there being no real masons and claiming masons? Not that I suspect that, I just want to make sure. I've never played a mafia game where the roles weren't guaranteed to be 2 or 3 different sets of roles.

Not definitely masons in the game, the roles are from within a set of possible roles (of which mason is a possibility)

PPE: 1

[Debatepro]

Also, weren't you voting for me already?

You are growing on me. My goal is to do no harm to the best of my ability as a new player, I feel I'm making an informed decision based on probabilities, thus needed to reaffirm my dogma.

[shraeye]

MiX MiX, he's our man! If we can't lynch him, then scum will win!

[arishipshape]

Shraeye: Played those weird guessing games at the start. As you all know, I hate obfuscation and withholding of reason. Hasn't been super towny to make up for it IMHO. Therefore, fos.

LaLight: Is uncc'ed mason, a little to inactive for my liking. I think it would take some serious risk taking for scum to pretend to be mason, but if they pulled it off may God have mercy on our souls. I think LaLight actually is mason.

DatSwan: Active, good summarys, townread. Only issue I find is that early Faust having a role restriction conspiracy theory. I suspect nobody would just randomly be in the role restriction mindset, so I suspect DatSwan has some sort of role like that. That role could be town oriented, or scum. IDK. I suspect DatSwan is good, but depending on the restriction role swan may or may not have, I could change on that.

Raerae: Townread. Nice and logical. No hiding stuff.

E-foo: As I was typing this, Efoo voted mail-mi and gave no reasons why. Reasons please. Also,

vote: arishipshape. Cluttering the thread.

I was providing information. Kind of suspect imho. Other than those votes i'm not seeing anything too out of the ordinary. A little inactive for my taste perhaps.

[mail-mi]

MiX (4): Debatepro, shraeye, arishipshape, raerae
raerae (3): Joseph2302, DatSwan, faust
mail-mi (3): LaLight, silverspawn, MiX
LaLight (1): EFHW
DatSwan (1): Uncleeurope

These are the current wagons, with the exception of EFHW being on me. I don't like MiX or raerae particularly right now, and the only other option is DatSwan who has 1 vote on him and I don't even remember him very much in this game.

hm.

[MiX]

MiX MiX, he's our man! If we can't lynch him, then scum will win!

False.

What can I do to prove my innocence?

@ari, I like that list, but mail-mi's missing; yes, it wasn't part of my original question, but still.

@mail-mi, at this point it's either me or you. Apologies if you're town, but I can't die today.

[shraeye]

probably not much.  at this point i've almost tunneled down to the earth's core!! can't stop now, gotta get those achievements.

[arishipshape]

Shraeye: Played those weird guessing games at the start. As you all know, I hate obfuscation and withholding of reason. Hasn't been super towny to make up for it IMHO. Therefore, fos.

LaLight: Is uncc'ed mason, a little to inactive for my liking. I think it would take some serious risk taking for scum to pretend to be mason, but if they pulled it off may God have mercy on our souls. I think LaLight actually is mason.

DatSwan: Active, good summarys, townread. Only issue I find is that early Faust having a role restriction conspiracy theory. I suspect nobody would just randomly be in the role restriction mindset, so I suspect DatSwan has some sort of role like that. That role could be town oriented, or scum. IDK. I suspect DatSwan is good, but depending on the restriction role swan may or may not have, I could change on that.

Raerae: Townread. Nice and logical. No hiding stuff.

E-foo: As I was typing this, Efoo voted mail-mi and gave no reasons why. Reasons please. Also,

vote: arishipshape. Cluttering the thread.

I was providing information. Kind of suspect imho. Other than those votes i'm not seeing anything too out of the ordinary. A little inactive for my taste perhaps.

It has been brought to my attention that I missed Mail-Mi. Here goes:
Mail-mi: Not enough content for my liking. He isn't definitive and/or contributing enough. Nothing to evil, but nothing good either. I lean towards scum.

[MiX]

probably not much.  at this point i've almost tunneled down to the earth's core!! can't stop now, gotta get those achievements.

I feel the same way. Perhaps, in a way, we are the same. How unfortunate that we are on opposite sides.

...and how I'm the one that has a wagon. Oh well, at this point I've accepted my fate.

@ari, good, I like your D1 performance, now can you vote mail-mi? 

[mail-mi]

this day one has way too many pages.

I am rereading MiX right now, thoughts collected here:

goes all buddy-buddy on ariship. not sure how I feel about it. He seems very confident, though I suppose he's not an actual newbie, he's just a newbie to f.ds.

Question: How does MiX know Joseph's meta? He says he's only read the past few games, which I haven't done--Did Joseph claim SK in those games? If either one of them flips scum, definitely look back on them.

asks at least a few "would this be scummy if..." or "what I'm doing is usually scummy but..." stuff. Seems like it could be hedgy. Slightly scummy.

answering things instantly is not scummy. I don't like leaving questions unanswered (unless I miss them), and that is as town or scum. Null.

hm, MiX has been paying very close attention to the amount of votes that are on him. That's something I do much more often as scum than as town because I'm more worried about being lynched as scum than I am as town. Scummy.

also talks about how there are reasonable cases on him. if he's town, he knows any case on him is not reasonable because it is untrue. if he's scum, he should be trying to convince people that those cases are unreasonable. This is just weird. doesn't really affect my read.

i'm on MiX's post #251 and I've got to go to class, but my townread on him has significantly diminished due to this more focused reread of him. for now I will vote: MiX and finish my reread later if I can