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[Joseph2302]

This post reads as if it should really end in a vote for DatSwan. It doesn't, and that makes it scummy. There is little point in dismantling someone else's townread on you unless you think they are scum and you can show it this way.

I vote when I'm good and ready, not a moment before, and I'm not a bit sorry it doesn't match your expectations. The other thing I don't do is vote based on a single post unless that post is a copy/paste of a scum role message. Again, not a bit sorry about that.

Can confirm. This is raerae-meta.

seems to disagree with my game play and that makes me scummy in his eyes

I strongly dislike this attempt to invalidate my read on raerae.

I strongly like it

asking a lot of questions and doing nothing of actual scum hunting so far

If you'd enlighten me, how does one scumhunt in an online forum where our only interactions are text based?  Questions are bad because we get answers and reactions?  I'll have to keep that in mind.

raerae be right; I've said it before and I'll reaffirm.  This be townrae.

Buddying?

[shraeye]

Yeah man.

[arishipshape]

if [shraeye] shows up today and says some nice, straightforward information granting things, i'll give him a pass.

Shraeye, no more games. Say things straight.

Sorry man, I'm just going to keep being me.

Playing games obfuscates information. Therefore, playing games is anti-town, as the town is attempting to fix it's information deficit, while the scum is trying to make the deficit as painful as possible by clouding and sowing discord and strife. You can keep being you, if you want the town to have a harder time. Consider shraeye officially on my FOS list, along with Faust.

[Debatepro]

As a new player, aren't there some advantages to pulling the trigger a bit earlier than expected if you are fairly certain? I mean...  doesn't it give their scum!buddies a chance to build an alternative narrative impacting future votes.

Let's be honest, it's MiX, why keep them around? If you are their scum!buddy you have read the writing on the wall and you want to keep the day going long enough to build some alternative narratives. And if we're wrong... I'm not sure its a huge loss.

This is nothing against MiX, I'll be the first one to pour one out for them if they are town and put on the dunce hat. I think some of the issues are a change in the speed of the game compared to what they are used to and the available time.

[arishipshape]

As a new player, aren't there some advantages to pulling the trigger a bit earlier than expected if you are fairly certain? I mean...  doesn't it give their scum!buddies a chance to build an alternative narrative impacting future votes.

Let's be honest, it's MiX, why keep them around? If you are their scum!buddy you have read the writing on the wall and you want to keep the day going long enough to build some alternative narratives. And if we're wrong... I'm not sure its a huge loss.

This is nothing against MiX, I'll be the first one to pour one out for them if they are town and put on the dunce hat. I think some of the issues are a change in the speed of the game compared to what they are used to and the available time.

I'm not sure, as I am not used to forum mafia, but I believe having more conversation rather than ending the day is more important. More conversation equals more information. In addition, the mafia is gonna kill someone at night, and that will guarantee that person be town. The more everyone talks, the more that person talks, the more solid town opinions we have.

[raerae]

People including you
I think you're slightly scummy, and many other people I think are slightly towny

You recognize how wildly unhelpful this is, right?  I'm not saying you've got to go full case mode but give an example or something.  You aren't helping town with your sheepy vote and lack of reasoning.

Buddying?

He's just stating facts.  He's played with me more than anyone here, he knows buddying would get him nowhere with me, and he knows EFHW, mail-mi, and maybe faust since he's read me now would call him out if he tried to say this isn't my town meta.  It doesn't say much about his alignment to me.

[Joseph2302]

As a new player, aren't there some advantages to pulling the trigger a bit earlier than expected if you are fairly certain? I mean...  doesn't it give their scum!buddies a chance to build an alternative narrative impacting future votes.

Let's be honest, it's MiX, why keep them around? If you are their scum!buddy you have read the writing on the wall and you want to keep the day going long enough to build some alternative narratives. And if we're wrong... I'm not sure its a huge loss.

This is nothing against MiX, I'll be the first one to pour one out for them if they are town and put on the dunce hat. I think some of the issues are a change in the speed of the game compared to what they are used to and the available time.

D1 we're unlikely to be fairly certain though, as we're basing things off mostly nothing

[MiX]

As a new player, aren't there some advantages to pulling the trigger a bit earlier than expected if you are fairly certain? I mean...  doesn't it give their scum!buddies a chance to build an alternative narrative impacting future votes.

Let's be honest, it's MiX, why keep them around? If you are their scum!buddy you have read the writing on the wall and you want to keep the day going long enough to build some alternative narratives. And if we're wrong... I'm not sure its a huge loss.

This is nothing against MiX, I'll be the first one to pour one out for them if they are town and put on the dunce hat. I think some of the issues are a change in the speed of the game compared to what they are used to and the available time.

I will not accept being the mislynch: I am very easily the most active player in the entire game, removing me from the game now is the biggest mistake town could make.

What do you mean pull the trigger? Hammer? Not enough people are certain I'm the correct lynch for that, next time try to say I'm scummy instead of saying I should get lynched "to pull the trigger earlier".

I am being very defensive here: I'm still the biggest wagon and my scumreads barely have any votes on them, getting desperate.

shraeye, you missed one question:

re: flailing: It's true that MiX answers every comment immediately. I'm not sure that counts as flailing, though. I'd like to hear more of why Shraeye picked that word.

People suspicious of DatSwan, can you produce a convincing case on him? I'll try to do the same for shraeye.

PPE 3: Joseph, is that all you have? If you really think raerae's scummy, surely you can say why, right?

[faust]

I will not accept being the mislynch: I am very easily the most active player in the entire game, removing me from the game now is the biggest mistake town could make.

Seconded. Scum loves all this attention on MiX.

[arishipshape]

I will not accept being the mislynch: I am very easily the most active player in the entire game, removing me from the game now is the biggest mistake town could make.

What do you mean pull the trigger? Hammer? Not enough people are certain I'm the correct lynch for that, next time try to say I'm scummy instead of saying I should get lynched "to pull the trigger earlier".

I am being very defensive here: I'm still the biggest wagon and my scumreads barely have any votes on them, getting desperate.

Sarcasm mode: On
Oh no! MiX was defensive! Clearly, as we all know, defensiveness obviously and definitely shows you are scum, because guilty conscience.
Sarcasm mode: Off
MiX, how do you justify your early buddying? For example:

arishpshape posts EXACTLY how I would post my first post in my first game, therefore he is town

You really post like me...I like your style! Besides, even without the newbie pass, I still consider you town, I believe scum would talk to their summates first, diminishing that "first post" feel when they do talk in public, at least for a new person.

I am blatantly buddying you aren't I? I should prepare myself for when you're scum...

Seconded. Scum loves all this attention on MiX.

Why are you defending MiX? Do you think he's town? If so, say it clearly, and give justification.

[faust]

if [shraeye] shows up today and says some nice, straightforward information granting things, i'll give him a pass.

Shraeye, no more games. Say things straight.

Sorry man, I'm just going to keep being me.

Playing games obfuscates information. Therefore, playing games is anti-town, as the town is attempting to fix it's information deficit, while the scum is trying to make the deficit as painful as possible by clouding and sowing discord and strife. You can keep being you, if you want the town to have a harder time. Consider shraeye officially on my FOS list, along with Faust.

Just because something is anti-town doesn't mean it's scummy. And anyway there are different ideas of what constitutes anti-town play. shraeye got more reactions from his question than he had from making a case on you, and interactions are a good thing.

[faust]

Seconded. Scum loves all this attention on MiX.

Why are you defending MiX? Do you think he's town? If so, say it clearly, and give justification.

Yes, I think he's town. I think he's a capable player and it would have been so easy to not bring all this attention on himself. Plus the way people refuse to move away from that wagon shows that scum isn't interested in alternatives.

[arishipshape]

Seconded. Scum loves all this attention on MiX.

Why are you defending MiX? Do you think he's town? If so, say it clearly, and give justification.

Yes, I think he's town. I think he's a capable player and it would have been so easy to not bring all this attention on himself. Plus the way people refuse to move away from that wagon shows that scum isn't interested in alternatives.

"MiX is a capable player" and "he has a persistent wagon" isn't gonna cut it. I'm sure people are willing to move away from the MiX wagon, if presented with a more scummy figure. Are you volunteering yourself?

[shraeye]

shraeye, you missed one question:

re: flailing: It's true that MiX answers every comment immediately. I'm not sure that counts as flailing, though. I'd like to hear more of why Shraeye picked that word.

I've covered this

[MiX]

MiX, how do you justify your early buddying? For example:

arishpshape posts EXACTLY how I would post my first post in my first game, therefore he is town

You really post like me...I like your style! Besides, even without the newbie pass, I still consider you town, I believe scum would talk to their summates first, diminishing that "first post" feel when they do talk in public, at least for a new person.

I am blatantly buddying you aren't I? I should prepare myself for when you're scum...

I don't know how to say that you post like I would. I got a good townread feel that hasn't died out over time, in fact, the more you talk, the more I see the connection to your first posts, which only strengthens it.

I knew I would be accused of buddying you after giving you that massive townread, so I said it. If you have further questions, say so.

shraeye, you missed one question:

re: flailing: It's true that MiX answers every comment immediately. I'm not sure that counts as flailing, though. I'd like to hear more of why Shraeye picked that word.

I've covered this

Oh flailing like a flag! Completely missed it.

Seconded. Scum loves all this attention on MiX.

Why are you defending MiX? Do you think he's town? If so, say it clearly, and give justification.

Yes, I think he's town. I think he's a capable player and it would have been so easy to not bring all this attention on himself. Plus the way people refuse to move away from that wagon shows that scum isn't interested in alternatives.

"MiX is a capable player" and "he has a persistent wagon" isn't gonna cut it. I'm sure people are willing to move away from the MiX wagon, if presented with a more scummy figure. Are you volunteering yourself?

"a more scummy figure" is shraeye, DatSwan...and Joseph? Mostly the first two.

@faust, what do you think of shraeye?

[arishipshape]

"a more scummy figure" is shraeye, DatSwan...and Joseph? Mostly the first two.

I just re-read DatSwan, except for that half finished opinion article on everyone I don't see any scummyness there. I fos shraeye, but think that buddying is more suspect than playing games. Joseph? Haven't noticed him. I'll reread him when I have time.

Anyone else have ace attorney pursuit themes play in their head when they type rebuttals?

[EFHW]

re: whether to lynch MiX, another consideration is the effect of having such an active unknown continuing in the game. We may have trouble considering anyone else.

But how about Lalight?

i think at least one of silver/faust is scum, I've read nothing to move my vote from raerae, still think it's a good chance to catch scum there, DS sounds too inattentive which is weird for him

A few scummy things about this post.

[silverspawn]

I feel like there is a lot of discussion about nothing by everybody and some deeper level of discussion I can't grasp at

You and me both. I've rarely felt like there was so much discussion that didn't matter. Like almost every accusation that gets thrown around just has me going "this isn't alignment indicative, moving on"

[silverspawn]

Look at this vote count. I'll color the vets in blue.

MiX (4): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, arishipshape
raerae (3): silverspawn, LaLight, Joseph2302
shraeye (1): MiX
mail-mi (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): faust
arishipshape (1): Uncleeurope

Not Voting (2): mail-mi, EFHW

Most notably, we have four super new players voting for a fifth super new player.

What does it mean? I'm not sure. But that seems like something more worthy of discussion.

[silverspawn]

Assuming first MiX is town.

If there are vets among the scum -- which is very likely -- are they likely to join the wagon?

I'm thinking no. At least I don't think I would want to join it. Instinctively, I would feel like this wagon won't lead to a lynch (too early, wagon too weird, case too weak) and so I have no reason to be on it. It looks better in future analysis if I'm not.

Assuming MiX is scum, it would take more guts to stay off it. Scum might now feel pressured to bus. This might be far fetched, but I'm thinking that I'll take the lack of vets on the wagon as evidence for MiX being town.


Other thought: if MiX is town, then this wagon pretty much gives everyone on the scum team full cover. (re: scum loves this wagon). No scum will feel any pressure right now. Which feels like it fits with how the game is going. They'll just stand there and be delighted in all the talk about MiX

[silverspawn]

inb4 he's scum and I'm dead wrong. But my gut also says town. Plus the attention thing faust mentioned is a good point.

let's vote: DatSwan. I hope your reads are better this game than last @faust

[silverspawn]

I've been making a conscious effort to avoid emotional arguments with faust, which is probably what you're picking up. I don't think it says anything about his alignment.

Can you specify where this has led you to act differently towards me than you would have otherwise?

Not really, I wasn't aware that I had done any one thing differently. But I have been consciously trying to avoid arguments -- in general, but with you in particular -- and LaLight said we sounded more civil or whatever. If he picked up something real, that's a totally plausible explanation for it.

[silverspawn]

Re: Mix responding to every point: that's a playstyle thing. In order for a "flailing" argument to have any merit, you need to point out that he does it differently as town vs scum. Since this is his first game (right?) there's no reason to believe it's anything other than playstyle.

Why would anyone want to not seem defensive? What is wrong or scummy about defensiveness?

Defensiveness is certainly one of the variables that I think is real and often alignment indicative, especially for new players. However, it's also very playstyle dependent. As with the above, if you have a new player that has played a bunch of town games, then plays a new game and is suddenly far more defensive, well then this can be strong evidence for them being scum. In fact, this is how I remember being caught in my first scum game.

In your case, especially given that post I just quoted, it seems like you're just naturally inclined to be defensive. Which means it's probably not scummy. It's also pro town play btw, so don't let anyone tell you to change it.

[silverspawn]

Does anybody else see how ridiculous this is?  His stance is flapping back and forth like a flag in a blizzard.

That probably means he's town. The idea that town is more consistent than scum is a myth. Generally, the opposite is true. For new players in particular, you should assume the opposite.

Remember that this game is not actually about winning arguments and then lynching people who made the least amount of sense. It's easy to slide into that mode, but the actual goal is to find scum, which is a very different and much harder task.

[Joseph2302]

Look at this vote count. I'll color the vets in blue.

MiX (4): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, arishipshape
raerae (3): silverspawn, LaLight, Joseph2302
shraeye (1): MiX
mail-mi (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): faust
arishipshape (1): Uncleeurope

Not Voting (2): mail-mi, EFHW

Most notably, we have four super new players voting for a fifth super new player.

What does it mean? I'm not sure. But that seems like something more worthy of discussion.

As well as 4 newbies on a fifth newbie, there's also 3 vets on the same person