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[silverspawn]

                                       Vote Count 3.3.1

silverspawn (3): faust, EFHW, Uncleeurope
faust (3): Debatepro, shraeye, silverspawn
EFHW (1): raerae
Debatepro (1): Joseph2302

Not Voting (1): arishipshape

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends February 21, 2019, 04:00:00 pm.

I just forgot. In the beginning I didn't want to vote before we had the massclaim (bc quickhammers).

[faust]

If one is pro-town and they have a case to make, then my recommendation is you lay it out clearly with reasons and references. I seem to recall someone asking for that a lot in d1 and d2.

Look, dude, if I was sure who is scum here, I would lay out a case. I'm not. I think I have made my thought process on EFHW very transparent.

I know I can be frustrating, but my post is a plea to potential town.faust to pretend like he is teaching a child how to ride a bike and spell it out more clearly.

Also if the ari shenanigans at the end of D1 and my vote on MiX taught me anything, it is to treat my scum reads as somewhere way less than 90% certain.

I can do this. On EFHW, we have the following data points. (this is excluding any additional reads not based on PR stuff in order to make the argument clearer.)

1. She claimed while under no pressure to do so.
2. She is a claimed investigative role. We have Masons and a Neapolitan.
3. Her claim on D2 was made to clear Eddie, whom she claims to have obtained a favorable result on.

Now the following thoughts come into play on my reading of EFHW.

• In general scum is hesitant to claim anything. So 1 already makes the claim somewhat townie.
• The claim comes fairly early into the game. If scum claims PR early, they inevitably run into trouble later because they have to justify why scum has not killed them yet. So that is another point in favor of EFHW being town.
• It is worth it to discuss point 3. The play makes sense for a townie with that role. Does it make sense for scum!EFHW to do this? There are 2 scenarios:
  
  • If Eddie is her scum partner, then of course she may want to protect him. But that kind of play ties them together. That is quite dangerous for scum. It may still be worth it to prevent a scum lynch, but really Eddie was in no immediate danger of being lynched, only at 2 votes. So I tend to think that scum!EFHW does not make a saving throw here.
  • The other option is that Eddie is town. Here, the only motivation for scum!EFHW to make that claim is for towncred. But this runs into the problem that scum!EFHW cannot know that there was no motion on Eddie - unless she is, in fact, a scum Motion Detector. This is a possibility, scum!EFHW deciding to take a relatively weak scum role and play it as a town role for towncred.
• Now a more setup analysis point of view, concerning data point 2. 2 investigative roles can be pretty powerful for town, and Masons to, so that is a lot of power in our hands. We already know for sure that Masons and Neapolitan are a thing, so we need to answer the question: would adding a town Motion Detector make this too much? My answer is: Not necessarily. You can envision a setup where scum has a Ninja and no other targeting roles. This makes EFHW's role virtually useless and possibly even harmful. So it is not too much power for town to include this. This one does not go either way for EFHW's alignment.
• Finally, this is the big one that made me think EFHW may be scum. EFHW is an experienced player. An investigative PR needs to make sure that if they die, town is able to backtrack what their results were in order to not lose information. This is what mail-mi did (but he went overboard and signaled to scum that he is a PR). So town!EFHW, having a result, would absolutely want to post something that upon reread makes it clear what kind of result she got. Here is the big problem: She does not mention Eddie at all. Not until shraeye and raerae are voting for Eddie. This makes it look like EFHW decided on the spot there to claim the result, and had not planned to hint at it all along. Of course it is possible that she did plan to hint at it and just did not get around to it - but it does not look good.

Does this help?

[Debatepro]

I think Debatepro and ss could be a scum combo. Debatepro suggesting a wagon for no reason on me, and ss then calling me scummy for calling Debatepro out on it

I did have a reason, raerae who is on both of our townie lists asked a question "anyone else worth looking at". I looked at the list of everyone's reads and you were on it more than once across an interesting selection of players. (BTW it's red because green doesn't make any sense and i am not supposed to use teal. Does red mean something special in the context of this game?)

You only have to go back to my first day's posts and read them to know that the combo you propose can't possibly be the case:

• My very first reads list in reply to MiX is in #289 where I say in more than one place that I get a scumvibe from SS.
• In #445 I lay out a comprehensive case against SS as being scum for coming to the defense of MiX. I believe he has fallen into my trap (you should all be laughing).
• SS replies in #487  that "I'm not going to respond to the debatepro post because it strikes me as super hostile and getting into a fight about it as unhelpful. But if anyone else thinks any particular thing in it is a legitimate point, I can respond to that one."
• Debatepro decides he went overboard in the case and waits to see what happens with MiX to give SS another read.
  
  This is part of my problem with faust's list, because I am not on a team with either of them and this should be obvious if you read through my interactions. In his defense, he did say he say that ari, ss, and debate don't make sense as a team.
  
  PPE: 1
  
  
  
  

[faust]

I think Debatepro and ss could be a scum combo. Debatepro suggesting a wagon for no reason on me, and ss then calling me scummy for calling Debatepro out on it

I did have a reason, raerae who is on both of our townie lists asked a question "anyone else worth looking at". I looked at the list of everyone's reads and you were on it more than once across an interesting selection of players. (BTW it's red because green doesn't make any sense and i am not supposed to use teal. Does red mean something special in the context of this game?)

You only have to go back to my first day's posts and read them to know that the combo you propose can't possibly be the case:

• My very first reads list in reply to MiX is in #289 where I say in more than one place that I get a scumvibe from SS.
• In #445 I lay out a comprehensive case against SS as being scum for coming to the defense of MiX. I believe he has fallen into my trap (you should all be laughing).
• SS replies in #487  that "I'm not going to respond to the debatepro post because it strikes me as super hostile and getting into a fight about it as unhelpful. But if anyone else thinks any particular thing in it is a legitimate point, I can respond to that one."
• Debatepro decides he went overboard in the case and waits to see what happens with MiX to give SS another read.
  
  This is part of my problem with faust's list, because I am not on a team with either of them and this should be obvious if you read through my interactions. In his defense, he did say he say that ari, ss, and debate don't make sense as a team.
  
  PPE: 1
  
  
  
  

Sorry man, your D1 scumread of silver does not buy you non-partner-cred, especially considering that you flip around rather quickly:

There where 8 votes on MiX if you count the post hammer vote for s by SS.

At least two of those votes are town and I’d say the SS is probably town as well because  they gave the best defense of MiX as town.

Right now the player I trust the most is SS. Vote: Arishipshape

[Debatepro]

Does this help?

Yes, your case and how you got there is much clearer to me.

PPE

[Debatepro]

Sorry man, your D1 scumread of silver does not buy you non-partner-cred, especially considering that you flip around rather quickly:

There where 8 votes on MiX if you count the post hammer vote for s by SS. At least two of those votes are town and I’d say the SS is probably town as well because  they gave the best defense of MiX as town.

Right now the player I trust the most is SS. Vote: Arishipshape

Struggling with this line of thinking. The the post's you reference are 500/700 posts and 5/8 IRL days apart from my "soft trap". I mean people flip-flop on one page of posts in this game and shraeye just said last night that we shouldn't take much stock of the list we finished like 36hrs ago. Doesn't matter what you think about shraeye's comment, the point is a lot past between those two points including two kills, some mason stuff, etc.

I want to re-emphasize this point: "Debatepro decides he went overboard in the case and waits to see what happens with MiX to give SS another read."

Part of the ExperiencedScumBuddy thought experiment is to get the more experienced town players to really think through what is going on. I mean pretend your scum, how would you have coached me to play in D1-D3? Does it look like anything you've seen in my play? It shouldn't and I can say that with confidence, but what do I know. 

@UncleEurope - I know "ExperiencedScumBuddy" is a reason you read me as scummy and I've stopped using it because it's it's clearly not helpful to town, but I was trying to be in character: google language games.

[faust]

Part of the ExperiencedScumBuddy thought experiment is to get the more experienced town players to really think through what is going on. I mean pretend your scum, how would you have coached me to play in D1-D3? Does it look like anything you've seen in my play? It shouldn't and I can say that with confidence, but what do I know. 

Why do you think your coached play as coached scum would not look like your actual play?

[arishipshape]

Hey, ari, since you are no longer the top lynch candidate, would you care to, you know, play the game?

Whenever I do that, people want to kill me.

[arishipshape]

Also, my third scumread is joseph.

[Debatepro]

Part of the ExperiencedScumBuddy thought experiment is to get the more experienced town players to really think through what is going on. I mean pretend your scum, how would you have coached me to play in D1-D3? Does it look like anything you've seen in my play? It shouldn't and I can say that with confidence, but what do I know. 

Why do you think your coached play as coached scum would not look like your actual play?

I feel like a scum coach would give a list of do's and dont's to a first time player. And piss people off, frustrate people, draw attention to yourself, etc. would probably be on the list of things to avoid. To which you say "but that would give you cover" and we go round and round.

But I find this type of response not very helpful to town. I mean as much as we are trying to isolate scum we're trying to isolate town. How about this experiment, pretend to have a strong town read on debatepro, go back and re-read his most important posts, what does that tell you about everyone else? Can it help you isolate the scumteam? What composition does that team look like? Those are the posts I want to read, because they help me find scum. And if this doesn't tell faust anything, it doesn't matter because you aren't the only person reading this post.

[faust]

Part of the ExperiencedScumBuddy thought experiment is to get the more experienced town players to really think through what is going on. I mean pretend your scum, how would you have coached me to play in D1-D3? Does it look like anything you've seen in my play? It shouldn't and I can say that with confidence, but what do I know. 

Why do you think your coached play as coached scum would not look like your actual play?

I feel like a scum coach would give a list of do's and dont's to a first time player. And piss people off, frustrate people, draw attention to yourself, etc. would probably be on the list of things to avoid. To which you say "but that would give you cover" and we go round and round.

And yet you think ari, who has done all these things, is scum?

[arishipshape]

Part of the ExperiencedScumBuddy thought experiment is to get the more experienced town players to really think through what is going on. I mean pretend your scum, how would you have coached me to play in D1-D3? Does it look like anything you've seen in my play? It shouldn't and I can say that with confidence, but what do I know. 

Why do you think your coached play as coached scum would not look like your actual play?

I feel like a scum coach would give a list of do's and dont's to a first time player. And piss people off, frustrate people, draw attention to yourself, etc. would probably be on the list of things to avoid. To which you say "but that would give you cover" and we go round and round.

And yet you think ari, who has done all these things, is scum?

I'm not trying to be frustrating. Sorry if I am

[Debatepro]

Part of the ExperiencedScumBuddy thought experiment is to get the more experienced town players to really think through what is going on. I mean pretend your scum, how would you have coached me to play in D1-D3? Does it look like anything you've seen in my play? It shouldn't and I can say that with confidence, but what do I know. 

Why do you think your coached play as coached scum would not look like your actual play?

I feel like a scum coach would give a list of do's and dont's to a first time player. And piss people off, frustrate people, draw attention to yourself, etc. would probably be on the list of things to avoid. To which you say "but that would give you cover" and we go round and round.

And yet you think ari, who has done all these things, is scum?

Touche. But I had a scum read on ari at the same time I had one on SS and MiX. In fact, I thought they were a team on 26 Jan, took a bunch of notes (below) and he hasn't done anything in that time to change my opinion.

Code: [Select]

Ariship:
#67 says nothing ... mix's play is both scum and not scum
#158: Questioning Shraeye for voting for mix? perhaps Noob giving props for their first buddy, but im not sure, seems like amateur hour to defend someone you don't already work with... especially with the early buddy call out by others... no attempt to correct the record.

Seems sketch...
#153 Those minor shade to Mix, "FOS" a "little objectionable"
#154 Mix says it's minor shade can airship unvote
#156 Ariship unvotes because it's only minor...
#165 "Hence reason for my unvote for Mix..." however unvote justification was that early FOS is just for buddying was premature, but the justification in this post is that Mix is quietly not responding all votes. Reasons are different even if not mutually exclusive.

[faust]

Part of the ExperiencedScumBuddy thought experiment is to get the more experienced town players to really think through what is going on. I mean pretend your scum, how would you have coached me to play in D1-D3? Does it look like anything you've seen in my play? It shouldn't and I can say that with confidence, but what do I know. 

Why do you think your coached play as coached scum would not look like your actual play?

I feel like a scum coach would give a list of do's and dont's to a first time player. And piss people off, frustrate people, draw attention to yourself, etc. would probably be on the list of things to avoid. To which you say "but that would give you cover" and we go round and round.

And yet you think ari, who has done all these things, is scum?

Touche. But I had a scum read on ari at the same time I had one on SS and MiX. In fact, I thought they were a team on 26 Jan, took a bunch of notes (below) and he hasn't done anything in that time to change my opinion.

Code: [Select]

Ariship:
#67 says nothing ... mix's play is both scum and not scum
#158: Questioning Shraeye for voting for mix? perhaps Noob giving props for their first buddy, but im not sure, seems like amateur hour to defend someone you don't already work with... especially with the early buddy call out by others... no attempt to correct the record.

Seems sketch...
#153 Those minor shade to Mix, "FOS" a "little objectionable"
#154 Mix says it's minor shade can airship unvote
#156 Ariship unvotes because it's only minor...
#165 "Hence reason for my unvote for Mix..." however unvote justification was that early FOS is just for buddying was premature, but the justification in this post is that Mix is quietly not responding all votes. Reasons are different even if not mutually exclusive.

Generally speaking, it is bad practice to quote stuff you wrote elsewhere at an earlier point, or at least a subset of people here including me thinks so.

[faust]

Also that does not invalidate my point. You think we must see that you are town for behaviour that someone you think is scum exhibits. That just does not make sense.

[Debatepro]

Also that does not invalidate my point. You think we must see that you are town for behaviour that someone you think is scum exhibits. That just does not make sense.

Your filter is broken and narrow on this one point about coaching. I have a multiple point case, I think you know this and I find this preferencing and narrowing behavior scummy.

[Joseph2302]

Reading all of this makes me sure Debarepro is scum. And almost certainly being coached (maybe with daychat like someone suggested earlier as a possible game balancer)

[faust]

Also that does not invalidate my point. You think we must see that you are town for behaviour that someone you think is scum exhibits. That just does not make sense.

Your filter is broken and narrow on this one point about coaching. I have a multiple point case, I think you know this and I find this preferencing and narrowing behavior scummy.

This is silly. Just because I am responding to one thing that I find off does not mean I am ignoring the other things.

[Debatepro]

Generally speaking, it is bad practice to quote stuff you wrote elsewhere at an earlier point, or at least a subset of people here including me thinks so.

I don't want to get sidetracked here, apologies if I violated some decorum. If i restate from notes i already wrote without using the quotes/code tags and say this is a synopsis of my notes is a violation?

Not trying to be a pain about it, just not sure where to draw the line, because it seems people are taking notes and ~posting~ from them.

[faust]

Generally speaking, it is bad practice to quote stuff you wrote elsewhere at an earlier point, or at least a subset of people here including me thinks so.

I don't want to get sidetracked here, apologies if I violated some decorum. If i restate from notes i already wrote without using the quotes/code tags and say this is a synopsis of my notes is a violation?

Not trying to be a pain about it, just not sure where to draw the line, because it seems people are taking notes and ~posting~ from them.

See here.

[Debatepro]

Also that does not invalidate my point. You think we must see that you are town for behaviour that someone you think is scum exhibits. That just does not make sense.

Your filter is broken and narrow on this one point about coaching. I have a multiple point case, I think you know this and I find this preferencing and narrowing behavior scummy.

This is silly. Just because I am responding to one thing that I find off does not mean I am ignoring the other things.

If you make a case that the earth is round and all I focus on is a single point that there is friction in one of your points about whether or not someone has actually sailed around the earth, whilst ignoring all the other evidence you present, that seems like non-town-aligned-dialog-preferencing. The whole point is the earth is round and there is a ton of evidence to support it.   

Anyway, I think there is some substantive and nuanced differences between the two plays you sense tension in. Most notably my posts that might "piss people off, frustrate people, draw attention to myself" actually contain evidence, references, and reasoned arguments, and attempts to be helpful to town. I don't see that from Ari.

[raerae]

Hey, ari, since you are no longer the top lynch candidate, would you care to, you know, play the game?

Whenever I do that, people want to kill me.

Stop pouting, you aren't our lunch today if I have anything to say about it. Plus, people wanting to kill you is kind of the whole point. It sucks sometimes but you just gotta let that ride and keep going. I'm in your corner for now, whatcha think about EFHW's claim? You game for her lunch?

[Debatepro]

@EFHW what do you think of faust’s pseudo-case in #1952? I say pseudo-case not out of disrespect but just that it didn’t over sell what he thinks.

[Debatepro]

&Raerae if EFHW is lunched and she flips scum what does that tell us about her team, Eddie?

[raerae]

&Raerae if EFHW is lunched and she flips scum what does that tell us about her team, Eddie?

Seems to indicate he is her teammate so he'd be next? Is this a trick question? I could also buy a Joseph lunch but I'm really down for EFHW's.