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[silverspawn]

As a new player, aren't there some advantages to pulling the trigger a bit earlier than expected if you are fairly certain? I mean...  doesn't it give their scum!buddies a chance to build an alternative narrative impacting future votes.

Let's be honest, it's MiX, why keep them around? If you are their scum!buddy you have read the writing on the wall and you want to keep the day going long enough to build some alternative narratives. And if we're wrong... I'm not sure its a huge loss.

This is nothing against MiX, I'll be the first one to pour one out for them if they are town and put on the dunce hat. I think some of the issues are a change in the speed of the game compared to what they are used to and the available time.

What an interesting clash of interpretations. You seem to consider the MiX wagon to lead to an inevitable lynch. I consider it to be ... silly is probably the best word.

As much as I dislike this post on an emotional level, I have to admit that it probably makes you towny. In fact, it's probably one of the most towny things that have been said so far. As scum, either MiX is town, then you would know that you're talking about a town which makes the post unusually ballsy, and if MiX is scum, you're painting your partner's lynch as inevitable, which is very strange play.

As well as 4 newbies on a fifth newbie, there's also 3 vets on the same person

Yeah, I have no idea why I was voting for her, though, and you probably don't have a great reason, either, so I don't think that means as much.

[Uncleeurope]

Look at this vote count. I'll color the vets in blue.

MiX (4): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, arishipshape
raerae (3): silverspawn, LaLight, Joseph2302
shraeye (1): MiX
mail-mi (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): faust
arishipshape (1): Uncleeurope

Not Voting (2): mail-mi, EFHW

Most notably, we have four super new players voting for a fifth super new player.

What does it mean? I'm not sure. But that seems like something more worthy of discussion.

As well as 4 newbies on a fifth newbie, there's also 3 vets on the same person

A fairly townie person.

[shraeye]

Yeah, I have no idea why I was voting for her, though, and you probably don't have a great reason, either, so I don't think that means as much.

......why you assuming Joseph's lack of reasons?

Also, why you not giving raerae and me vet-cred?  We got 5 MVPs between us.

[shraeye]

inb4 he's scum and I'm dead wrong. But my gut also says town. Plus the attention thing faust mentioned is a good point.

let's vote: DatSwan. I hope your reads are better this game than last @faust

So voting DatSwan because of faust?

[Debatepro]

although i understand why people are trying to flush out MiX's partners.

Yup; I've 96% moved onto searching for MiX's partners and only 4% asking myself "but what if I'm wrong!?"  I'm not wrong.

There was 'soft' trap set in #429. Maybe MiX required an elaborate defense:
#444 SS lists of newbs voting for MiX juxtaposition against experienced players appeal to experience/authority which i find not compelling.

#445

Assuming MiX is scum, it would take more guts to stay off it. Scum might now feel pressured to bus.

This doesn’t make any sense, you just said none of the experienced players are on MiX. It does provide you with an alternative target in D2, if a more experienced player jumps on because the newbs arguments become compelling and/or you don't want to go down with the ship. The fog of war.

#446

let's vote: DatSwan. I hope your reads are better this game than last @faust

Does this sucking up technique actually work?

#448

Re: Mix responding to every point: that's a playstyle thing. In order for a "flailing" argument to have any merit, you need to point out that he does it differently as town vs scum. Since this is his first game (right?) there's no reason to believe it's anything other than playstyle.

He is not new and this isn’t flailing… it’s worse. He didn’t care then started asking a billion questions, while mentioning every other player in the rest of his threads.

Speaking of questions didn’t you say didn’t you say…

Answering questions is super scummy. vote: arishipshape

#449

Does anybody else see how ridiculous this is?  His stance is flapping back and forth like a flag in a blizzard.

That probably means he's town. The idea that town is more consistent than scum is a myth. Generally, the opposite is true. For new players in particular, you should assume the opposite.

You don’t have to be more consistent than scum to be town… you just have to be consistent… a town is less consistent that scum… that can’t be.

#449

Remember that this game is not actually about winning arguments and then lynching people who made the least amount of sense. It's easy to slide into that mode, but the actual goal is to find scum, which is a very different and much harder task.

You are not helping find scum.

As much as I dislike this post on an emotional level, I have to admit that it probably makes you towny. In fact, it's probably one of the most towny things that have been said so far.

Of course i'm town, you had the first open town read on me in #150. Plus it’s extra safe to say it now because other have come out with it. It’s the overt defense of MiX that’s troubling.

As well as 4 newbies on a fifth newbie, there's also 3 vets on the same person

Yeah, I have no idea why I was voting for her, though, and you probably don't have a great reason, either, so I don't think that means as much.

So far you have had no, bad, or contradictory reasons for voting for people.

Note: I read lasts posts first so my number could be off.

[Swowl]

faust: ... LL came in and asked the money question ("faust - are you town aligned). So faust has no backdoor for being some third faction and fake claiming or whatever at this point... so super hard town lean on him as of now.

I don't understand why this is a statement of fact, i assume it has something to do with rules around third faction(s) or fake claiming? Can someone explain or point me to the rule area... thank you in advance.

7) DebatePr0 (11): I have several reasons why I would prefer not to lynch Pro (acceptable nick name?) today.

Prefer debatepro without the zero. I added my Shuffle IT ID in case someone here wanted to crush me in dominion. I may not respond to Pro or Debatepr0 if i am busy since i'll open all the threads and search for my username.

I have a busy day and may not reply until later this evening (US). Still firm on my day one vote anyway, although i understand why people are trying to flush out MiX's partners.

 

Sorry I had just finished your re read so I was copy pasting from the shuffle id username (with the 0).

My faust explanation isn't based on set up - more just on play style. Faust came into the game playing very out of the ordinary. LL asked if faust was town aligned. Important note is LL did not ask is faust "was skum". This removes the concept of faust being able to come in down the road and claim they were acting differently because they were a third faction (such as a survivor or something).
Now comes by bias that I had put into the reads - I do not believe skum!faust would act this way, and faust has now deleted the opportunity for them to claim to be anything except exactly town-aligned... therefore I think faust is town.

[Swowl]

I will not accept being the mislynch: I am very easily the most active player in the entire game, removing me from the game now is the biggest mistake town could make.

Seconded. Scum loves all this attention on MiX.

To re-iterate in case it is needed - I also agree with this. MiX has said a lot of stuff, but that is exactly where skum wants the spotlight Day 1 - on a very active player. We should not lynch MiX today.

[Swowl]

inb4 he's scum and I'm dead wrong. But my gut also says town. Plus the attention thing faust mentioned is a good point.

let's vote: DatSwan. I hope your reads are better this game than last @faust

Assuming this means you no longer think faust is skum?

[Swowl]

Yeah, I have no idea why I was voting for her, though, and you probably don't have a great reason, either, so I don't think that means as much.

......why you assuming Joseph's lack of reasons?

Also, why you not giving raerae and me vet-cred?  We got 5 MVPs between us.

this is not directed at me, but I am apologizing anyways because in all of my posts I am pretty sure I referred to both of you as new comers - so mb on that.

[Debatepro]

Seconded. Scum loves all this attention on MiX.

Why are you defending MiX? Do you think he's town? If so, say it clearly, and give justification.

Yes, I think he's town. I think he's a capable player and it would have been so easy to not bring all this attention on himself. Plus the way people refuse to move away from that wagon shows that scum isn't interested in alternatives./

@Faust can you explain this because I’m confused. I’m sure it’s something i don’t understand. People did move away from the wagon including you. As of #444 only  Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, arishipshape are on MiX. The quote above is at post #437. This is important because #SS uses this justification for his vote on Datswan.

Voted for MiX On:
Faust in #121
LaLight in #90
Eddie in #67 & #142
SS in #54

Still on MiX:
Shraeye in #112
Ari for in #52 #82 #373
Raerae #330
Debatepro in #72

[shraeye]

Giving passes for activity is NOT a good idea.  It's the flipside of lynching somebody for not being around.  Dislike.

[Swowl]

Assuming first MiX is town.

If there are vets among the scum -- which is very likely -- are they likely to join the wagon?

I'm thinking no. At least I don't think I would want to join it. Instinctively, I would feel like this wagon won't lead to a lynch (too early, wagon too weird, case too weak) and so I have no reason to be on it. It looks better in future analysis if I'm not.

Assuming MiX is scum, it would take more guts to stay off it. Scum might now feel pressured to bus. This might be far fetched, but I'm thinking that I'll take the lack of vets on the wagon as evidence for MiX being town.


Other thought: if MiX is town, then this wagon pretty much gives everyone on the scum team full cover. (re: scum loves this wagon). No scum will feel any pressure right now. Which feels like it fits with how the game is going. They'll just stand there and be delighted in all the talk about MiX

So this post is right before you vote for me which kind of tears me both ways... but silver has good points all around on the Mix wagon here.

[raerae]

My faust explanation isn't based on set up - more just on play style. Faust came into the game playing very out of the ordinary. LL asked if faust was town aligned. Important note is LL did not ask is faust "was skum". This removes the concept of faust being able to come in down the road and claim they were acting differently because they were a third faction (such as a survivor or something).
Now comes by bias that I had put into the reads - I do not believe skum!faust would act this way, and faust has now deleted the opportunity for them to claim to be anything except exactly town-aligned... therefore I think faust is town.

I do not understand all the towncred faust is getting for saying he's town.  I mean, should we just all claim we're town, hold hands, sing kumbaya, no lynch, and then wait for the NK? 

[shraeye]

inb4 he's scum and I'm dead wrong. But my gut also says town. Plus the attention thing faust mentioned is a good point.

let's vote: DatSwan. I hope your reads are better this game than last @faust

Assuming this means you no longer think faust is skum?

Wait, was ss reading faust as scum earlier?  Can you hunt that link?

Silver, what changed?

[Swowl]

My faust explanation isn't based on set up - more just on play style. Faust came into the game playing very out of the ordinary. LL asked if faust was town aligned. Important note is LL did not ask is faust "was skum". This removes the concept of faust being able to come in down the road and claim they were acting differently because they were a third faction (such as a survivor or something).
Now comes by bias that I had put into the reads - I do not believe skum!faust would act this way, and faust has now deleted the opportunity for them to claim to be anything except exactly town-aligned... therefore I think faust is town.

I do not understand all the towncred faust is getting for saying he's town.  I mean, should we just all claim we're town, hold hands, sing kumbaya, no lynch, and then wait for the NK?

my assumption is not based on the fact that faust is saying he is town... but based on the concept that I do not think faust would act the way he did as "mafia".
So if the options for faust are
1)Mafia
2)Town
3)Third Faction

...when he said he is "specifically town aligned".. he removed his ability to be a Third Faction. Given his actions I think the only options are Town or Third Faction. He can't be Third Faction... so I think he is Town.

My assumption based on him not being mafia is based on my own opinion.

My assumption based on him not being a third faction is because whether someone is a townish role (survivor or something), or a skummish role (SK)... they would still want to give themselves that out down the road. He removed that possibility on Day 1. So he is Mafia, or he is Town. so I think he is town.

[Swowl]

inb4 he's scum and I'm dead wrong. But my gut also says town. Plus the attention thing faust mentioned is a good point.

let's vote: DatSwan. I hope your reads are better this game than last @faust

Assuming this means you no longer think faust is skum?

Wait, was ss reading faust as scum earlier?  Can you hunt that link?

Silver, what changed?

Yes I will find the post I put it in my notes, one sec.

[raerae]

my assumption is not based on the fact that faust is saying he is town... but based on the concept that I do not think faust would act the way he did as "mafia".
So if the options for faust are
1)Mafia
2)Town
3)Third Faction

...when he said he is "specifically town aligned".. he removed his ability to be a Third Faction. Given his actions I think the only options are Town or Third Faction. He can't be Third Faction... so I think he is Town.

My assumption based on him not being mafia is based on my own opinion.

My assumption based on him not being a third faction is because whether someone is a townish role (survivor or something), or a skummish role (SK)... they would still want to give themselves that out down the road. He removed that possibility on Day 1. So he is Mafia, or he is Town. so I think he is town.

I disagree, D1 is far too early to claim anything other than town in a normal game, in RMM that probably changes but we're all normal here.  He claims some third faction and he's the NK, easy peasy, so obviously he wouldn't do that to himself. 

[Swowl]

my assumption is not based on the fact that faust is saying he is town... but based on the concept that I do not think faust would act the way he did as "mafia".
So if the options for faust are
1)Mafia
2)Town
3)Third Faction

...when he said he is "specifically town aligned".. he removed his ability to be a Third Faction. Given his actions I think the only options are Town or Third Faction. He can't be Third Faction... so I think he is Town.

My assumption based on him not being mafia is based on my own opinion.

My assumption based on him not being a third faction is because whether someone is a townish role (survivor or something), or a skummish role (SK)... they would still want to give themselves that out down the road. He removed that possibility on Day 1. So he is Mafia, or he is Town. so I think he is town.

I disagree, D1 is far too early to claim anything other than town in a normal game, in RMM that probably changes but we're all normal here.  He claims some third faction and he's the NK, easy peasy, so obviously he wouldn't do that to himself.

I think you and I are just on different pages... the way an RMM plays out if you are a Anti-Town-Third-Party Faction... typically will come to a point where you have to claim. You obviously do not want to claim being Skum, and in an RMM (with all the potential knowledge of other players), claiming Town is dangerous. The best out would be to claim another third party faction. He removed that from the table.

I mean my opinion on him being town or skum is completely bias on my beliefs, but does that at least wipe up the confusion?

[Swowl]

inb4 he's scum and I'm dead wrong. But my gut also says town. Plus the attention thing faust mentioned is a good point.

let's vote: DatSwan. I hope your reads are better this game than last @faust

Assuming this means you no longer think faust is skum?

Wait, was ss reading faust as scum earlier?  Can you hunt that link?

Silver, what changed?

yeah nevermind I am pretty sure I misread this - nothing seems to have changed for silver - disregard it.

It is towny for faust to go against his meta and raise eyebrows, and scum!faust knows this which is why he is likely to emulate it. At only one level of meta you're not likely to obtain significant information that distinguishes between scum!faust and town!faust

I read it as the opposite as it was written (as in silver found faust towny, not that skum!faust would know that and flip it around).

[raerae]

my assumption is not based on the fact that faust is saying he is town... but based on the concept that I do not think faust would act the way he did as "mafia".
So if the options for faust are
1)Mafia
2)Town
3)Third Faction

...when he said he is "specifically town aligned".. he removed his ability to be a Third Faction. Given his actions I think the only options are Town or Third Faction. He can't be Third Faction... so I think he is Town.

My assumption based on him not being mafia is based on my own opinion.

My assumption based on him not being a third faction is because whether someone is a townish role (survivor or something), or a skummish role (SK)... they would still want to give themselves that out down the road. He removed that possibility on Day 1. So he is Mafia, or he is Town. so I think he is town.

I disagree, D1 is far too early to claim anything other than town in a normal game, in RMM that probably changes but we're all normal here.  He claims some third faction and he's the NK, easy peasy, so obviously he wouldn't do that to himself.

I think you and I are just on different pages... the way an RMM plays out if you are a Anti-Town-Third-Party Faction... typically will come to a point where you have to claim. You obviously do not want to claim being Skum, and in an RMM (with all the potential knowledge of other players), claiming Town is dangerous. The best out would be to claim another third party faction. He removed that from the table.

I mean my opinion on him being town or skum is completely bias on my beliefs, but does that at least wipe up the confusion?

BUT THIS ISN'T RMM.  And it's D1.  And claiming town is literally the nullest thing you can do because the entire point of this game is to either lie or identify liars.  You can think he's town all day long but to say he can't possibly be anything else because of this single post is mind-boggling. 

Let's play this another way; are you town-aligned, DS?

[Swowl]

my assumption is not based on the fact that faust is saying he is town... but based on the concept that I do not think faust would act the way he did as "mafia".
So if the options for faust are
1)Mafia
2)Town
3)Third Faction

...when he said he is "specifically town aligned".. he removed his ability to be a Third Faction. Given his actions I think the only options are Town or Third Faction. He can't be Third Faction... so I think he is Town.

My assumption based on him not being mafia is based on my own opinion.

My assumption based on him not being a third faction is because whether someone is a townish role (survivor or something), or a skummish role (SK)... they would still want to give themselves that out down the road. He removed that possibility on Day 1. So he is Mafia, or he is Town. so I think he is town.

I disagree, D1 is far too early to claim anything other than town in a normal game, in RMM that probably changes but we're all normal here.  He claims some third faction and he's the NK, easy peasy, so obviously he wouldn't do that to himself.

I think you and I are just on different pages... the way an RMM plays out if you are a Anti-Town-Third-Party Faction... typically will come to a point where you have to claim. You obviously do not want to claim being Skum, and in an RMM (with all the potential knowledge of other players), claiming Town is dangerous. The best out would be to claim another third party faction. He removed that from the table.

I mean my opinion on him being town or skum is completely bias on my beliefs, but does that at least wipe up the confusion?

BUT THIS ISN'T RMM.  And it's D1.  And claiming town is literally the nullest thing you can do because the entire point of this game is to either lie or identify liars.  You can think he's town all day long but to say he can't possibly be anything else because of this single post is mind-boggling. 

Let's play this another way; are you town-aligned, DS?

I am saying RMM in the sense that it is possible that a third party faction is possible.
I am also not saying that he can't possibly be anything else - I actually made it explicitly clear in all my posts where my reasoning turned into opinion.... but to reiterate... I do not belive that skum!anyone would out their ability to claim a "town-aligned" third faction on Day 1 (therefore, I do not think faust is a third faction). So now I have to pick between him being town or skum... and I do not think he is skum this game, based on his interactions... if part of the skum role removed from possibility is third party faction. So, I think he is town.

You get that skum = everything that is NOT exactly town right?

[Swowl]

EDIT:

............So now I have to pick between him being town or mafia...

[Debatepro]

Assuming first MiX is town.

If there are vets among the scum -- which is very likely -- are they likely to join the wagon?

I'm thinking no. At least I don't think I would want to join it. Instinctively, I would feel like this wagon won't lead to a lynch (too early, wagon too weird, case too weak) and so I have no reason to be on it. It looks better in future analysis if I'm not.

Assuming MiX is scum, it would take more guts to stay off it. Scum might now feel pressured to bus. This might be far fetched, but I'm thinking that I'll take the lack of vets on the wagon as evidence for MiX being town.


Other thought: if MiX is town, then this wagon pretty much gives everyone on the scum team full cover. (re: scum loves this wagon). No scum will feel any pressure right now. Which feels like it fits with how the game is going. They'll just stand there and be delighted in all the talk about MiX

So this post is right before you vote for me which kind of tears me both ways... but silver has good points all around on the Mix wagon here.

Really I have the opposite reaction to SS post... the point doesn’t make sense to newb!me. As a vet partner of scumbuddy MiX wouldn’t you:
1. Be on then off the wagon
2. Try to convince people MiX is town
3. Put shade on another experienced player so you can take another one out at night.

Plus I find it super sketchy to say this game isn’t about reason, arguments, and persuasion.

[raerae]

I am saying RMM in the sense that it is possible that a third party faction is possible.
I am also not saying that he can't possibly be anything else - I actually made it explicitly clear in all my posts where my reasoning turned into opinion.... but to reiterate... I do not belive that skum!anyone would out their ability to claim a "town-aligned" third faction on Day 1 (therefore, I do not think faust is a third faction). So now I have to pick between him being town or skum... and I do not think he is skum this game, based on his interactions... if part of the skum role removed from possibility is third party faction. So, I think he is town.

You get that skum = everything that is NOT exactly town right?

Oh good gravy, can somebody else explain this point of view to me?  Clearly DS and I are getting nowhere.  I'm more confused now than I was before because apparently now faust would still be scum if he had claimed third-party?  But he wouldn't have not claimed third-party if he was third-party because claiming town is dangerous in RMM but we're not in RMM but we are? 

DS, you didn't answer my question.  But while you're at it, why don't you tell me what we should have done if faust had claimed "not town aligned" or "third party aligned" or whatever you think the other option was please?

[Uncleeurope]

I think his point is this:

If Faust is scum he will want to keep his options as open as possible, including the ability to claim to be some “neutral” role that is in some way unaffected by everything. That way he can explain his lack of townie behavior without him being scum. (I assume he has done this before, hence LLs question and DS’s reaction)

But he shut down that line of reasoning (theoretically) due to him saying he is team town.

This is something a scum player in general would avoid (the elimination of future strategic options) so DS is asserting that Faust is unlikely to be scum or a third party due to his claim.


However, I think scum could still claim town without it detrimenting then all that much, and a third party could still claim town and then come clean later, depending on the role. So it isn’t nearly as strong an argument as it could be IMO.