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[Dingan]

So like, here's the scenario:

Player A makes an honest mistake-click. Lets even say the outcome of that click gained them no information. E.g. Player A accidentally clicks action+coin on Pawn instead of an intentional action+card. Drawing the card reveals information, thus an undo after that would be up for debate. But before the card is drawn (after the Pawn is played), an undo is neither gaining nor losing any information.

Player B denies the request.

Player A requests the undo 1 or 2 more times.

Player B denies those.

...

Player A buys the last Province, with still another Buy available, and at this point is guaranteed to win the game.

Player A then requests an undo.

That is Undo Trolling. I've felt very tempted to do it (as Player A). Is this bad?

[Kirian]

Well, I mean, anything that makes the game longer for no particular reason is wasting time you could be spending playing a new game, right?  So if you're wasting your own time just to waste someone else's time, I'd say yes, that's trolling, and no, don't do that, you look like a jerk.

[Awaclus]

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

[GendoIkari]

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

[O]

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

Why are you for restricting gentleman's agreements on the game? It's frankly none of your business what other people mutually agree to undo.

[Awaclus]

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

Why are you for restricting gentleman's agreements on the game? It's frankly none of your business what other people mutually agree to undo.

It's quite a bit of his business if he's also ranked in the same system.

[O]

I'm surprised you're even allowed to make an undo request a second time.

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

Why are you for restricting gentleman's agreements on the game? It's frankly none of your business what other people mutually agree to undo.

It's quite a bit of his business if he's also ranked in the same system.

In the same way that a universal fiber internet connection and the prohibition of alcohol is his business. It's probably less likely to mess with matchmaking than disconnects, forfeits, drunk players.

It's simply not relevant on any meaningful scale to the ratings of the other people in the pool, so if his concern stems from that area it should be laughed off. There's a tradeoff of "imposing on other people" vs "how it affects me" and this is absurdly on one end of the scale.

[pacovf]

Do you disagree with this part of his statement, though?

You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval.

[Awaclus]

It's simply not relevant on any meaningful scale to the ratings of the other people in the pool, so if his concern stems from that area it should be laughed off. There's a tradeoff of "imposing on other people" vs "how it affects me" and this is absurdly on one end of the scale.

It's pretty easy to justify the argument that everyone in the rating pool should be playing the same game, because if they aren't, there's no point in having them in the same rating pool either. It depends on your individual views whether you consider a game where you're allowed to undo +cards the same as a game where you aren't, and it also depends on your individual views which one you prefer. If the majority of players agree with Gendo, then that's the system that should be implemented.

[Donald X.]

The undo system seems weird to me. You should automatically be allowed to undo anything that didn't give you any information, like the Pawn scenario you mention, without needing to ask approval. And you shouldn't be allowed to undo anything that did give information, whether the person gave permission or not.

I wouldn't have programmed undo, just planned on it; too many more important things. Given that there's undo, I would have it work like you say for rated games; for unrated games the "undo request" thing is fine.

IRL I allow undos with no new information, and do not when there's new information.

[-Stef-]

I wouldn't have programmed undo, just planned on it; too many more important things. Given that there's undo, I would have it work like you say for rated games; for unrated games the "undo request" thing is fine.

IRL I allow undos with no new information, and do not when there's new information.

Jay doesn't involve himself much with the implementation details, but he had one explicit request: please have an undo button. That, and I wanted to have it myself too.

[Donald X.]

Jay doesn't involve himself much with the implementation details, but he had one explicit request: please have an undo button. That, and I wanted to have it myself too.

Oh I see. Well, well done then!

[ThetaSigma12]

I for one would personally love to undo trolling.

[teamlyle]

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious 

Personally, most people I've played with thankfully allow the undo, but I blacklist anyone who doesn't. If you have a big engine and you accidentally click the smithy first, even though you've technically gotten a bit of new information, it would be pretty rude for the opponent to deny the undo because 1) the new info doesn't matter, you're drawing your whole deck anyway and 2) it's pretty obvious what happened.

[AJD]

It occurs to me that the opponent can't always tell if you're asking to undo something that gave you new information or not. If I play, for example, Hamlet, and then misclick "discard for +Action" when I meant discard for +Buy, I have to click undo to get out of that. But to the opponent, it just looks like I played Hamlet, drawing a card, and now I want to un-play it.

[Awaclus]

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious 

It's much more dramatic to resign.

[Jacob marley]

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious 

Personally, most people I've played with thankfully allow the undo, but I blacklist anyone who doesn't. If you have a big engine and you accidentally click the smithy first, even though you've technically gotten a bit of new information, it would be pretty rude for the opponent to deny the undo because 1) the new info doesn't matter, you're drawing your whole deck anyway and 2) it's pretty obvious what happened.

Your example is not always that obvious.  Maybe you depend on treasure payload and could play Smithy knowing there is a possibility to dead draw actions, but you are risking that to draw your gold.  Then, if you drew 3 actions, you want an undo.  From where I sit, it's hard to know in advance that you just misclicked the smithy rather than the village next to it.

[Awaclus]

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious 

Personally, most people I've played with thankfully allow the undo, but I blacklist anyone who doesn't. If you have a big engine and you accidentally click the smithy first, even though you've technically gotten a bit of new information, it would be pretty rude for the opponent to deny the undo because 1) the new info doesn't matter, you're drawing your whole deck anyway and 2) it's pretty obvious what happened.

Your example is not always that obvious.  Maybe you depend on treasure payload and could play Smithy knowing there is a possibility to dead draw actions, but you are risking that to draw your gold.  Then, if you drew 3 actions, you want an undo.  From where I sit, it's hard to know in advance that you just misclicked the smithy rather than the village next to it.

If you want to ask for a non-obvious undo, it's probably a good idea to explain the situation to your opponent before requesting it.

[Jacob marley]

Agreed

[ackmondual]

In digital implementations, undoing a "Play All Treasures" function would've been nice if it costed you buying a Grand Market!

Silver
Silver
Silver
Copper..... (!)

[jsh357]

I always resign and blacklist after step 3.

Why would you resign? If you beat someone who denied you the undo earlier it's so much more glorious 

You should resign a) because trolls thrive more on rustling people's jimmies for prolonged periods than actually winning games and b) because it's much more useful for mods to have examples of games to pull up in which someone was clearly being trolled and chose to resign and blacklist.

[teamlyle]

In digital implementations, undoing a "Play All Treasures" function would've been nice if it costed you buying a Grand Market!

Silver
Silver
Silver
Copper..... (!)

Since this is such a common mistake, I think Coppers shouldn't automatically be played in GM games, or when you're buying using Black Market and Grand Market is available.

[allanfieldhouse]

In digital implementations, undoing a "Play All Treasures" function would've been nice if it costed you buying a Grand Market!

Silver
Silver
Silver
Copper..... (!)

Since this is such a common mistake, I think Coppers shouldn't automatically be played in GM games, or when you're buying using Black Market and Grand Market is available.

This was a nice feature in Goko, so I'm sure it's on their list of future enhancements. Additionally, it was really nice how it WOULD play the Coppers if you weren't going to be able to afford the Grand Market anyway.

[Awaclus]

Additionally, it was really nice how it WOULD play the Coppers if you weren't going to be able to afford the Grand Market anyway.

Except when you had special Treasures in your hand and could actually afford the Grand Market.

[KingPeter]

Now the real example of undo trolling would be if Donald brought back Scout.

[Kirian]

I got the chance to do the opposite sort of thing today.

Defiled Shrine and Border Village on the board.  Opponent buys Border Village and gains Curse, but Shrine is on-buy rather than on-gain.  It took me a couple of moments to figure out what they'd done, then I asked if they wanted to undo.

That said, if your undo request is iffy, try to explain it in chat.  Not that I encounter declines that much.

[kipkoan]

You should resign ... b) because it's much more useful for mods to have examples of games to pull up in which someone was clearly being trolled and chose to resign and blacklist.

What do the mods do when someone denies non-info undos requests?  What do they do to abusive players or trolls?  Wondering if they are banned. If so, do they get a refund if they had paid subscription?  My guess is most of them wouldn’t have a paid subscription.  Which reminds me — it’d be nice to have an option to only play with subscribers to help avoid the trolls.

[Awaclus]

You should resign ... b) because it's much more useful for mods to have examples of games to pull up in which someone was clearly being trolled and chose to resign and blacklist.

What do the mods do when someone denies non-info undos requests?  What do they do to abusive players or trolls?  Wondering if they are banned. If so, do they get a refund if they had paid subscription?  My guess is most of them wouldn’t have a paid subscription.  Which reminds me — it’d be nice to have an option to only play with subscribers to help avoid the trolls.

In the meantime, a good alternative is to set the minimum rating high enough. I usually get matched against ~52+ and I don't have a lot of problems with annoying people.

[kipkoan]

I usually get matched against ~52+ and I don't have a lot of problems with annoying people.

I’m barely rated 52.    #833 on the leaderboard. I need to get better to avoid the trolls. Lol.

[Accatitippi]

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

[Cave-o-sapien]

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

I agree that would be awful if it happened, but I'm not convinced there would be more Undoing than there is now.

[Chris is me]

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

I agree that would be awful if it happened, but I'm not convinced there would be more Undoing than there is now.

My gut reaction was the same as yours, but after giving it some thought - this would take less time than waiting for them to think it all out...

[GendoIkari]

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

That... seems like a weird thing. I find it very hard to believe there would be an actual advantage to buying a bunch of things, finding out that you now can't afford as much as you wanted, then undoing it all, then buying a bunch of different things, repeatedly... compared to simply taking the very small amount of time it takes to know how much money you have and how much you can afford because of it. People are still going to tend to do what's easier.

What it would allow is someone to undo if they buy several things, then realize they made a math error and can't actually afford a Province after buying all the engine parts, so undoing to get 1 less engine part, or something like that. But it would be in response to a mistake in math. No one is going to try using those things instead of using any math.

[jsh357]

Undo requests and denials are not grounds for bans or any kind of moderation, just to clear that up. Players are within rights to deny whatever undo requests they want.

[GendoIkari]

Undo requests and denials are not grounds for bans or any kind of moderation, just to clear that up. Players are within rights to deny whatever undo requests they want.

Yeah I found it weird that people seem to think that denying an undo request is block-worthy or trollish behavior. Granting an undo request may show kindness; but it certainly shouldn't be expected/required.

[Chris is me]

Undo requests and denials are not grounds for bans or any kind of moderation, just to clear that up. Players are within rights to deny whatever undo requests they want.

Yeah I found it weird that people seem to think that denying an undo request is block-worthy or trollish behavior. Granting an undo request may show kindness; but it certainly shouldn't be expected/required.

Anything is block-worthy if you don’t like it. There’s no shame in not playing with anyone you don’t want to play with.

This of course should only apply to personal blacklists, and not like, moderation...

[-Stef-]

If no-info undos were automatically allowed, wouldn't some people just test-run multiple buy-phases instead of doing the maths in advance? I don't think I've ever denied an undo, but that would annoy me.

I agree that would be awful if it happened, but I'm not convinced there would be more Undoing than there is now.

My gut reaction was the same as yours, but after giving it some thought - this would take less time than waiting for them to think it all out...

I don't intend to make the client automatically accept all no-information undos. I can see a lot of merit in doing this for the last click, and then code some specific situations where you can go back more then 1 click without permission. But if they would all be automatically granted...

I quite often realize I made some mistake a few actions back. I missed some optimization and well I just accept I decreased my own odds. But sometimes in dominion a lot can happen without new any new info. Especially if you're heavily overdrawing your deck, there is just no new info to gain in the entire last part of your turn. It would feel almost like cheating if I use undo to go back & forth through that, and I would be seriously annoyed if my opponent did that. But if the game auto-grants the undo's, it's also strange to accept playing sub-optimally in a competitive game and just go on. I don't want to put people in that dilemma.

[markus]

Frequently undoing multiple no-info steps could be feasible, if
1) the client doesn't show my opponent what I'm doing until it is locked in
2) there is a reasonable timer

I would mostly be annoyed about my opponent undoing several steps, because I wouldn't know when to focus on what they're doing. Or thinking that they bought some card but then they actually didn't because of undo.

For example, the Through the Ages app allows you to try your turn and undo in between without showing that to your opponent. In theory, it would be possible to think and calculate everything through in your mind before clicking it. But it's definitely more convenient and ultimately faster if you can trial & error a bit.

[Awaclus]

Prismata automatically allows all non-information undos, which is basically your entire turn since there is no RNG in the game and your opponent can't do anything on your turn. I think it's a super cool system.

[ipofanes]

For example, the Through the Ages app allows you to try your turn and undo in between without showing that to your opponent. In theory, it would be possible to think and calculate everything through in your mind before clicking it. But it's definitely more convenient and ultimately faster if you can trial & error a bit.

To me, this is related to the "how fast do you play" thread. I'll play quicker if you allow me to undo a move done in haste.

[popsofctown]

I bought a Province I thought was for the win, but I was on an alt-vp strat and didn't realize Wolf Den made it for the loss until I saw the point counter.  My opponent denied the undo after being granted one earlier in the same game.

[SCSN]

I bought a Province I thought was for the win, but I was on an alt-vp strat and didn't realize Wolf Den made it for the loss until I saw the point counter.  My opponent denied the undo after being granted one earlier in the same game.

I wouldn't have asked for that undo and instead been mad at myself for not seeing the interaction. If my opponent asked I'd probably grant, but not without feeling annoyed about his indiscreetness. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for not granting it, let alone consider it to be an offense of such gravity as to consider it trolling.

[-Stef-]

A few days ago someone asked me for an undo after playing Stables. I granted it before I started thinking because that's usually what I do with an undo request.
Then my opponent played Throne Room - Stables; he didn't draw an action the first time.

Was I sad? yes.
Do I want the software to solve this problem? no, not really.

[Cave-o-sapien]

It's never been more clear (to me) that there is not a definition of a reasonable undo request that applies to all players in all situations.

I remain unconvinced that there's a better system than what is in place currently.

[theory]

am i the only person that thinks the undo trolling in the OP is hilarious?  if that happened to me i would chuckle and throw up my hands.  that is some high-tier BM

i see the argument for living in a world with automatic no-info undos.  but that's hard to implement and vulnerable to bugs.  it's perfectly reasonable to not live in that world, and once you're not in that world, it's incumbent on you to know that all undos are strictly at the grace of your opponent.

[popsofctown]

I bought a Province I thought was for the win, but I was on an alt-vp strat and didn't realize Wolf Den made it for the loss until I saw the point counter.  My opponent denied the undo after being granted one earlier in the same game.

I wouldn't have asked for that undo and instead been mad at myself for not seeing the interaction. If my opponent asked I'd probably grant, but not without feeling annoyed about his indiscreetness. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for not granting it, let alone consider it to be an offense of such gravity as to consider it trolling.

I understand that intuition but.. I can't see an objective criteria that makes it different than all sorts of other stuff like "Oh, if I play Temple for VP I have to trash this Gold in my hand, is it ok if I don't do that."  I see people ask for that constantly.

I thought it was a duplicate Province, so my failure was in not installing a deck tracker, not missing interactions for the record.