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Author Topic: Am I required to tell a forgetful player who played smuggler what I just bought?  (Read 11817 times)

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J-Kidder

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In a recent game we were playing four player and the player after me played smuggler and then asked me what I had gained on my turn.  They had forgotten (it was a a friendly/casual game with interruptions from children ect.)  I did not press the issue in that game, but it did bring the question to my mind: must I inform them what I bought/gained?

If not then what happens? Do they get to guess?

If this is already a discussed issue you can just link me to the thread.

Thanks!
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Davio

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I think common courtesy is more useful than strict game rules here.

The actual rules don't help much:
Quote
Smugglers - This looks at the most recent turn of the player to
your right, even if you've taken multiple turns in a row. If that
player gained no cards, or nothing costing 6 or less, then
Smugglers does nothing. If that player gained multiple cards
costing 6 or less, you choose which one to gain a copy of. Gained
cards must come from the supply. They can be any card gained,
whether bought or otherwise gained; you can even gain a card
that the previous player gained with Smugglers. If the previous
player gained a card via Black Market, you will not be able to
gain a copy of it, as there are no copies of it in the supply. This is
not an Attack; Lighthouse and Moat can't stop it.

So there's nothing in there about sudden amnesia. I think you should just tell 'em what you gained.

This is something that grown men (and perhaps some children) should be able te resolve among themselves.
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jonts26

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I'm not sure what the rules say, but in the interest of sportsmanship I would say just tell them what you bought, ESPECIALLY in a "friendly, casual game." Not doing so just seems like a somewhat jerk move.


If I played the smugglers and forgot what was purchased and my opponent refused to tell me what he bought, I'd probably just start claiming to smuggle certain cards until he didn't forbid me to take one.
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Titandrake

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If Isotropic is anything to go by, actions you have done last turn are public information, so yes.
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J-Kidder

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I agree, it would be pretty sticklerish not to tell (and after a bit of friendly razzing I did in fact tell my wife  ;D ). But I was currious about an official ruling.

Thanks for your responses.
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rotundo

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Live games with my friends are usually fuelled by alcohol and... erm, other things, so our house rule is yes, tell them what you bought. The tricky part comes when NOBODY remembers.
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Davio

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For your and your friends' sake, I hope this only happens when the previous player needed to reshuffle his discard pile for his new hand.
Or is reshuffling or the location of the discard pile sometimes forgotten as well?  ;D
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popsofctown

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Magic: the Gathering has identical situations in tournament play, and they came to the conclusion that the answer had to be "yes, tell them".

And MtG lets you be a fiend about punishing your opponent for forgetting things whenever possible.

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jotheonah

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and... erm, other things

Love that your post title right now is "Herbalist"
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DG

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Quote
In a recent game we were playing four player and the player after me played smuggler and then asked me what I had gained on my turn

I think there are two slightly different issues here. If an opponent asks you what you gained without playing the smuggler then you're not strictly bound to say. You should probably tell them anyway in a friendly game and most games are hopefully played in a friendly fashion. After the opponent has the smuggler in play I think you pretty much have to tell them just to save time. Otherwise the conversation would go

"I smuggle a gold"
"I didn't buy a gold"
"Ok then I smuggle a wharf"
"I didn't buy a wharf either"
"Ok, I smuggle a spy"
"I didn't buy a spy"
and so on.
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Ozle

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If my opponent would refuse to tell me what he bought I would do the above, but keep repeating it with the ones I know for sure he didn't buy, because he is clearly being an arse and it then becomes a new game in itself as a test of willpower!

"I smuggle a gold"
"I didn't buy a gold"
"Ok then I smuggle a wharf"
"I didn't buy a wharf either"
"Ok, I smuggle a spy"
"I didn't buy a spy"
"I smuggle a gold"
"You said that already"
"Ok then I smuggle a wharf"
"And that one..."
"I smuggle a gold"
"You just asked that..."
""Ok then I smuggle a wharf"
Repeat until he cracks....and then do it a few more times to drive home the point. He wont do it again!
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Donald X.

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In a recent game we were playing four player and the player after me played smuggler and then asked me what I had gained on my turn.  They had forgotten (it was a a friendly/casual game with interruptions from children ect.)  I did not press the issue in that game, but it did bring the question to my mind: must I inform them what I bought/gained?
Yes. All else is madness.
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joel88s

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It seems the card does not give you a choice to smuggle or not, so once you've played it, you must gain a copy of the (or a) card your RHO bought if suitably priced. Thus the game cannot go on until you do so, so by extension it would seem mandatory for opponent to clarify what it is.

In that case I guess the conversation would be "I play a Smugglers. What card or choice of cards do I gain?"
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jotheonah

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Well theoretically.... I bought an Estate and a Gold. My opponent plays a Smugglers. "What can I gain?" he asks. "An Estate," I reply.  The game can go on. I haven't lied. He should have paid attention... (Also why the heck did I buy a Gold and an Estate?)
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WanderingWinder

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Well theoretically.... I bought an Estate and a Gold. My opponent plays a Smugglers. "What can I gain?" he asks. "An Estate," I reply.  The game can go on. I haven't lied. He should have paid attention... (Also why the heck did I buy a Gold and an Estate?)
You bought an estate with a pair of hoards in play, gaining two golds.

J-Kidder

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In a recent game we were playing four player and the player after me played smuggler and then asked me what I had gained on my turn.  They had forgotten (it was a a friendly/casual game with interruptions from children ect.)  I did not press the issue in that game, but it did bring the question to my mind: must I inform them what I bought/gained?
Yes. All else is madness.
Indeed!  And an irritated wife to boot! (which is never a good idea  ;) )

And can I just say how cool it is that the creator of this game answers questions like this!  Thank you very much Donald for answering my question.
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Anon79

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Well theoretically.... I bought an Estate and a Gold. My opponent plays a Smugglers. "What can I gain?" he asks. "An Estate," I reply.  The game can go on. I haven't lied. He should have paid attention... (Also why the heck did I buy a Gold and an Estate?)
You bought an estate with a pair of hoards in play, gaining two golds.
If so, you didn't buy Duchy + Estate here because...?
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joel88s

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 Because you didn't want the next guy to smuggle a Duchy!  ;)
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Kuildeous

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I think that for the current round of turns, the question of what you gained or trashed should be honestly answered. There's nothing in the rules that say you cannot quickly buy a mountebank, put it on your discard pile, and clean up your play area. Doing so may hide your true intentions, and if people aren't paying close attention, they'll miss it. For the sake of full disclosure, I think it's reasonable to ask what people gained/trashed on their last turn.

Beyond that turn, of course, it's based on memory. I wouldn't expect someone to say, "How many Provinces have you bought so far," so that you can figure out the Province allocation among all players. If you aren't keeping count, then you lose out later (unless you're on Isotropic of course). I lost a game this weekend because I missed a vital piece. I knew I had a Duchy and a Province. I watched the purchases of the others. One player had a Province, one player had a Duchy, and one player had a Duchy and an Estate…or so I thought. When I purposely ended the game to secure my victory, I saw that the third player actually had a Province. I did not see him buy it. He wasn't trying to hide that fact. It was early enough that I wasn't 100% focusing on the victory cards. Of course, my other mistake was not counting the Province pile. I would have known that I was off when I saw nine Provinces instead of 10. Ah well.

But, if I had noticed that round that I didn't catch what he bought, I would have asked. And if he was the type to smarmily say, "No," then I wouldn't play with him again. Games are held in far too casual of an atmosphere to be smarmy about it.
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WanderingWinder

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I think that for the current round of turns, the question of what you gained or trashed should be honestly answered. There's nothing in the rules that say you cannot quickly buy a mountebank, put it on your discard pile, and clean up your play area.
It doesn't need to be in the rules that you need to publicly disclose what you're doing. When I play face-to-face, you always announce what you play (except your basic treasures, which you still show, but would be a little tedious to announce) and buy/gain.

Davio

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Sheesh, people. Where the rules end, that's where common sense and courtesy enter the playing field. What's the fun in playing with a group that's angle shooting all the time? You could just as well play with a group of magicians who magically all play Sea Hags every turn and moreover, they play cards that aren't even in the kingdom/BM!
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WanderingWinder

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Sheesh, people. Where the rules end, that's where common sense and courtesy enter the playing field. What's the fun in playing with a group that's angle shooting all the time? You could just as well play with a group of magicians who magically all play Sea Hags every turn and moreover, they play cards that aren't even in the kingdom/BM!
I'm sorry for wanting to have some human interaction in talking to people, seeing what they're doing when I play. You're right, game playing should happen without any discussion...

Davio

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That's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you can use common courtesy to solve problems not mentioned in the rulebook. When I play IRL me and my friends call out the cards as well.

"I play a Village, I play a Smithy, ...", etc...

I think it's just better that way. The money is just layed out and the player mentions a number and the other players trust (not unimportant) that this is correct. "I have $8 and will buy a Province; I have $6 and buy a Gold".
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WanderingWinder

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That's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you can use common courtesy to solve problems not mentioned in the rulebook. When I play IRL me and my friends call out the cards as well.

"I play a Village, I play a Smithy, ...", etc...

I think it's just better that way. The money is just layed out and the player mentions a number and the other players trust (not unimportant) that this is correct. "I have $8 and will buy a Province; I have $6 and buy a Gold".
Then that's basically just what we do. And I am rather confused by your previous post. But hey, whatever.

GendoIkari

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That's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you can use common courtesy to solve problems not mentioned in the rulebook. When I play IRL me and my friends call out the cards as well.

"I play a Village, I play a Smithy, ...", etc...

I think it's just better that way. The money is just layed out and the player mentions a number and the other players trust (not unimportant) that this is correct. "I have $8 and will buy a Province; I have $6 and buy a Gold".
Then that's basically just what we do. And I am rather confused by your previous post. But hey, whatever.

I'm pretty sure you misread his last post. First off it wasn't directed at you and your comment about how you should announce what you play. It was directed at those who think that it's ok to be sneaky and try to trick your opponents into not Smuggling a Gold when they could have; to those who want to use the technical rules of the game to be unsportsmanlike.
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