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[faust]

O is flying under the radar, never joins the main wagons (even if he scumread people for quite some time) and overall is scummy from my PoV.

Can you provide examples of O expressing a scumread on a wagon he did not join?

[LaLight]

I wish everyone would just prove they are townie in some way and we kill the ones that didn't do it.

It's a good plan. Go ahead and prove it.

Well. I can say things and you can believe them or not. I had no idea Calamitas was scum and I was thinking back then on D1 that Calamitas and Space won't participate too much in the game because D1 is hard for them. Then he flipped and I thought "wow, that's good, there won't be and endgame gambits like in M88 (which was named as the most interesting by me in the first stage of the drafting order) but that was surprising anyway. I mean why would e shoot him? I was thinking about it back then.

Then all mcmc/TWM thing started and it was cool on the one hand because I liked the plan but wasn't because it was goona break the game, but I have decided to go along, because what choice do we get? Arguing endlessly about if the game is lost for scum or not is not making the game more interesting and is not informative.

Then RR/e thing started and I was sure that both of them are scum who confused something in their QT and then they are trying to distance from each other. But! E flipped SK and I have felt like RR;s reaction was genuine (this is one of the reasons I TR him now).

Then ash and his claim. Up until the end I wanted to listen to what he has to say but the day ended and ash said nothing. After that he came and claimed impossible that you are InvImm never answering how the hell are there 3 deaths then? So he was clearly scum who had a plan, but something went wrong and he was clearly busted so we obviously lynched him. I tried to imagine the world where he is town and it even came up: he was rbd N1 and JKd N2,3 so he could be town. But his constant ignoring the "3 deaths" question was scummy. We lynched him and I was glad it worked.

Then iguana/Space situation was on the table. I admit this: I haven't thought that the chances of one of them being scum are higher than the chances that none of them is scum. Because we don't know what TWM have done. What if in the end he hid behind, like, you? And we got lycky kynching igu? That was that stopped me and there is very much things to take into the consideration so I was flailing. Somewhere in the thread TWM admitted he won't blindly follow plan because he thinks he can do more interesting things. WHat if he hid behind someone else? And your wish to narrow the lynchpool to 2 people was scummy in my eyes, I am sorry. So I was inactive trying to find the time to settle it all up in my head. While I was doing this, you lynched scum and thank you! It really worked, even if it was a coincidence. But what if indeed it was a coincidence and Space might be scum and whoever else might be scum? That's what driving me quite insane: a lot of suspects.

Now. I can see why you think I am scummy but this is my natural behaviour, I am too confused. I needed and need some starting point, an anchor, from which I will go to form strong natural reads, and right now I am finding it: wagon analysis points at O as scum in my eyes. Galzria and RR are townie in my eyes. I will go from here.

[LaLight]

O is flying under the radar, never joins the main wagons (even if he scumread people for quite some time) and overall is scummy from my PoV.

Can you provide examples of O expressing a scumread on a wagon he did not join?

Obviously ash. O was telling ash is the scummiest one here and stuff, but in the end he was not on the wagon as you clearly can see

[LaLight]

by the way my longpost is "A Game In A Nutshell" for everyone

[LaLight]

Also i think i can think of a reason ash was sent to kill instead of a strongman. Too much people in the game, strongman is useful, the protective wouldn't defend someone they want to kill and there are investigativea so better send goon just to be secure. Strongman becomes increasingly stronger in the lategame

[SpaceAnemone]

@Robz, are all these coloured vote counts okay?

As I'd said when I first mentioned my wagon-counter, I've been deliberately posting monochrome ones because of this:

In the future, do not color these. Colored text is reserved for the mod. This could easily be mistaken for an official vote count.

However, we've now had lots of other people colouring in the wagons, and it's obviously much easier to read than the monochrome (and saves duplication of effort, given that I auto-colour at the same time as auto-generating), so can I take it that it's acceptable for us to use colour in this particular late-game-discussion context?

[faust]

O is flying under the radar, never joins the main wagons (even if he scumread people for quite some time) and overall is scummy from my PoV.

Can you provide examples of O expressing a scumread on a wagon he did not join?

Obviously ash. O was telling ash is the scummiest one here and stuff, but in the end he was not on the wagon as you clearly can see

Well I see this:

I'm ready to L-1 Ashersky if we think we're done with relevant discussion. The game seems to have slowed down substantially.

I don't think you can say O stopped bussing just because he wanted to give everyone a chance to speak their minds.

[LaLight]

O is flying under the radar, never joins the main wagons (even if he scumread people for quite some time) and overall is scummy from my PoV.

Can you provide examples of O expressing a scumread on a wagon he did not join?

Obviously ash. O was telling ash is the scummiest one here and stuff, but in the end he was not on the wagon as you clearly can see

Well I see this:

I'm ready to L-1 Ashersky if we think we're done with relevant discussion. The game seems to have slowed down substantially.

I don't think you can say O stopped bussing just because he wanted to give everyone a chance to speak their minds.

Ah! Noted. Anyway what about all the others major wagons? Expressing the will to vote and to vote are different things

[faust]

I don't know. With regards to what other wagon did O express a willingness to vote and didn't?

[LaLight]

I don't know. With regards to what other wagon did O express a willingness to vote and didn't?

I will search, but this is not what I mean. I mean he could not express that, say, Cuzz is scummy, he could even townread him. The aim about which I am talking, is to avoid the wagon entirely, there are several ways to do that

[faust]

I don't know. With regards to what other wagon did O express a willingness to vote and didn't?

I will search, but this is not what I mean. I mean he could not express that, say, Cuzz is scummy, he could even townread him. The aim about which I am talking, is to avoid the wagon entirely, there are several ways to do that

Yes, but in that particular example I am pretty sure that O townread Cuzz hard way before the wagon was a thing, so him not joining that wagon isn't alignment-indicative in any way.

[faust]

I agree that scum has some motivation to avoid wagons especially on D1, and that O did that is a small scum sign. But he didn't avoid the D2 wagon, and actions with regards to the e wagon don't matter much because he was caught anyway. So the evidence you're presenting it terribly weak.

[LaLight]

I agree that scum has some motivation to avoid wagons especially on D1, and that O did that is a small scum sign. But he didn't avoid the D2 wagon, and actions with regards to the e wagon don't matter much because he was caught anyway. So the evidence you're presenting it terribly weak.

Well, yeah, it's weak, I guess. I looked through wagons and it really caught my eye..

[LaLight]

Doesn't mean i'm scum tho, does it?

I'll look more

[Robz888]

@Robz, are all these coloured vote counts okay?

As I'd said when I first mentioned my wagon-counter, I've been deliberately posting monochrome ones because of this:

In the future, do not color these. Colored text is reserved for the mod. This could easily be mistaken for an official vote count.

However, we've now had lots of other people colouring in the wagons, and it's obviously much easier to read than the monochrome (and saves duplication of effort, given that I auto-colour at the same time as auto-generating), so can I take it that it's acceptable for us to use colour in this particular late-game-discussion context?

I'll allow it.

[SpaceAnemone]

@Robz, are all these coloured vote counts okay?

As I'd said when I first mentioned my wagon-counter, I've been deliberately posting monochrome ones because of this:

In the future, do not color these. Colored text is reserved for the mod. This could easily be mistaken for an official vote count.

However, we've now had lots of other people colouring in the wagons, and it's obviously much easier to read than the monochrome (and saves duplication of effort, given that I auto-colour at the same time as auto-generating), so can I take it that it's acceptable for us to use colour in this particular late-game-discussion context?

I'll allow it.

Fab! Thank you :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

I think this is one of the vote-states I haven't posted already in the set for faust. It's a point where the Cuzz wagon was winding down and the Andrew wagon was growing in D2:

#2484
Cuzz (5): faust, sudgy, Dylan, Andrew, Space
O (1): Awaclus
Dylan (1): Galz
Andrew (7): LL, Eevee, O, RR, PPS, Jake, iguana
Space (1): Cuzz
Not Voting (5): ash, mcmc, Jimmmmm, TWM, e

It's got a characteristic sort of split for quite a lot of D1/D2: sudgy and Dylan are voting for the same person (in D1, sudgy voted the same as Dylan, but several vote-posts later each time), and iguana has joined a leading town-mislynch wagon. I'm betting the earlier on-wagon scum is LL, but I'd hear arguments for it being O as well.

[Dylan32]

@LL, The Space or iguana thing was because TWM announced that if mcmc didn't get the hammer, he would roll a dice and based on result he would either not hide or hide behind one of those two people. Mcmc did not get the hammer, so the simplest conclusion was that at least one of those two were scum.

[Dylan32]

Sorry Robz if that colored text wasn't something you wanted. I was under the impression that you were meaning specifically don't use colored text on the vote counts to avoid confusion there.

[Dylan32]

Looking at those vote counts, I'm betting that LL and sudgy are the last two scum. I would go for either, but with a strong preference for sudgy, because I've been scumreading him for a while and was only null to very very slight scum leaning on LL until this.

[LaLight]

Looking at those vote counts, I'm betting that LL and sudgy are the last two scum. I would go for either, but with a strong preference for sudgy, because I've been scumreading him for a while and was only null to very very slight scum leaning on LL until this.

why me?

[O]

TWM (3): JR, ash, mcmc
JR (7): e, Dylan, iguana, gkrieg, LL, Jake, sudgy
LL (4): Galz, PPS, Eevee, O

here he is avoiding the wagon. He knows that 1 or even 2 of this partners are there, so he votes for me. I am actually quite sure that there's more than 1 scum on this one:

JR (10): e, Dylan, gkrieg, LL, Jake, sudgy, iguana, Space, TWM, mcmc

BIG WAGONS DAY 2

All the same people are on Cuzz, O is avoiding it again:

Space (4): LL, O, Eevee, Dylan

Cuzz (: faust, sudgy, PPS, Dylan, Andrew, Space, iguana, Jake

Then he joins Andrew's wagon which in the end might mean, that there was no scum other than iguana and O. The other opportunity is Galz, but he's like the one I townread. Makes sense:
Cuzz (5): faust, sudgy, Dylan, Andrew, Space
Andrew (10): LL, Eevee, O, PPS, Jake, iguana, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, Galz, mcmc

BIG WAGONS DAY 3

Hardbussing started. Looks like they planned this bussing so O never switch off of ash. The same thing ash did with J Reggie in Gravity Falls.
ash (4): O, e, Galz, sudgy
Jimmmmm (5): faust, PPS, LL, Jake, RR

ash (5): O, faust, Jake, TWM, e
e (5): RR, LL, PPS, Galz, sudgy

ash (5): O, faust, Jake, e, LL
e (5): RR, PPS, Galz, sudgy, TWM

#3307
ash (5): O, faust, Jake, e, LL
sudgy (1): Dylan
e (6): RR, PPS, Galz, sudgy, TWM, Jimmmmm
Not Voting (5): Awaclus, Space, iguana, ash, mcmc

And O is avoiding the main wagon again.
e (9): RR, PPS, Galz, sudgy, TWM, Space, Jimmmmm, LL, e

BIG WAGONS DAY 4

bussing stopped. Why have O decided to stay away after continuous voting for ash D3? To stay away from the main wagon obviously.
ash (7): faust, LL, sudgy, Jake, Space, iguana, ash

O is flying under the radar, never joins the main wagons (even if he scumread people for quite some time) and overall is scummy from my PoV.

vote: O

1. I consistently townread Cuzz since day 1. So that's two "wagons" that I have clear reason not to be on.

2. I was on the Ashersky wagon, as Faust has helpfully pointed out. I scumread Ashersky ever since he complained so hard about setup.

3. I was on the Andrew wagon. If you reread the day it's clear I'm mostly playing "follow the ICs" and "Cuzz is a terrible lynch".

4. As you have pointed out I have periodically been scumreading Space throughout the game. Perhaps(?) this was wrong, but it makes a lot more sense for me to vote the 50/50 I've been scumreading than the 50/50 I have no real reads on.

[O]

Not sure I'm parsing everything correctly... what do you mean we have no proff that a vig exists? N3 is proof, no? That many deaths could not have happened without me. Plus I was definitely top of the draft order, so you'd have to make an argument for which role scum!me would have chosen instead.

And what about the N3 "missing kill"? The scum kill is mcmc...

Night 3 kills could very plausibly be SK, Mafia, and Hider-Behind mafia.

OK yeah i fucked up the lynch order in my head. N3 happens after D3.


So Galzria is very very likely but I still believe not confirmed town

[LaLight]

Not sure I'm parsing everything correctly... what do you mean we have no proff that a vig exists? N3 is proof, no? That many deaths could not have happened without me. Plus I was definitely top of the draft order, so you'd have to make an argument for which role scum!me would have chosen instead.

And what about the N3 "missing kill"? The scum kill is mcmc...

Night 3 kills could very plausibly be SK, Mafia, and Hider-Behind mafia.

OK yeah i fucked up the lynch order in my head. N3 happens after D3.


So Galzria is very very likely but I still believe not confirmed town

N2 kills were weird. One was faust's as he admitted and one e's, no mafia's iirc

[O]

Not sure I'm parsing everything correctly... what do you mean we have no proff that a vig exists? N3 is proof, no? That many deaths could not have happened without me. Plus I was definitely top of the draft order, so you'd have to make an argument for which role scum!me would have chosen instead.

And what about the N3 "missing kill"? The scum kill is mcmc...

Night 3 kills could very plausibly be SK, Mafia, and Hider-Behind mafia.

OK yeah i fucked up the lynch order in my head. N3 happens after D3.


So Galzria is very very likely but I still believe not confirmed town

N2 kills were weird. One was faust's as he admitted and one e's, no mafia's iirc

Ash was Jailed N2 right?

That's why I don't think there's a strongman.