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[faust]

Faust what are your thoughts on galz?

I thought we've been over this. I do not wish to share.

[faust]

But I don't want him lynched today, that much I can say.

[Awaclus]

That only works if you are willing to vote for someone other than O. If you are then you or I can be L-2 or L-1. If you aren't. Well then that isn't going to work. Are you willing to vote for someone other than O?

Why wouldn't I be willing to vote for someone other than O? I'm practically an IC so it's fine to take the risk of being on a non-scum lynch.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Also vote: 2.7

I am as confident that he is scum as I am confident that Andrew is town. Let's put it that way.

The only person you should have town confidence in is Awaclus, if you are telling the truth.

Which is my point.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

That only works if you are willing to vote for someone other than O. If you are then you or I can be L-2 or L-1. If you aren't. Well then that isn't going to work. Are you willing to vote for someone other than O?

Why wouldn't I be willing to vote for someone other than O? I'm practically an IC so it's fine to take the risk of being on a non-scum lynch.

Ok. I just hadn't heard you say otherwise. It is nice to know.

[sudgy]

I like faust's case.  Vote: Cuzz.

[pingpongsam]

I like faust's case.  Vote: Cuzz.

Agreed, will bite, Vote: Cuzz

Damn, I almost forgot what a real case looks like. That's impressive for D2.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Ok. If mcmc has a strong 2.7 townread, I am not going to try and argue against that. Maybe he is seeing something I am missing.

unvote

But again, my issue with the Andrew wagon is that I have seen nothing that used Day 1 wagons or interactions with known scum (granted I know there were few, but it is what we currently have to work with that is tangible). We have those things. So let's use them. If people want me to vote for Andrew, show me how he fits into that. If you can't ask yourself, "is he really the best lynch for today, or am I just doing gut read/confirmation bias."

[pingpongsam]

Had to poop, posting mobile... explaining why I'm not actually gone like I said.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

For example, faust does the exact of what I asked for above on Cuzz. Now to actually assess it.

[Cuzz]

Anyway here comes the glorious case on Cuzz:

A tl;dr up here. The main points are:

- his case on Andrew shows a scum point of view.
- his reads, especially early, are generic
- his turnaround on mcmc is unconvincing
- he puts a lot of emphasis on the fact that he is town
- he wants to push an Andrew lynch through before any other wagon can form

Also Cuzz and SpaceAnemone are definitely partners. Look at their avatars.

pretty sure I've had this avatar since M10.

Ah, M10.  Our debut.

vote: galzria

ok serious Vote: ashersky for this hit and run

Take this as just an example of Cuzz' early-game votes. They all follow the same pattern - point out something that is generally perceived as scummy, and then vote with that reason. There's very little original thought needed for that, and especially in the early game that good for scum because they can easliy have some fake reads.

Not reading a bunch of fluff might be anti fun, and it could even be anti town. My point is that posting a lot of stuff, regardless of what that stuff is, is scummy because gumming up the thread is an easy tactic to use here, and it's fairly effective.

This is so empirically anti-town I want us to lynch RR now.

You will hit an anti-town player, but I don't think you'll be hitting scum.

It's D1 and we're not likely going to lynch scum anyway. Lynching confirmed anti-town is worlds better than lynching a pro-town townie who just happened to get a wagon on them for nebulous "scumminess"

I know we might just disagree here, but this preemptively exonerates Cuzz from any responsibility for his D1 votes.

but yes i am the two shot vig.

O are you the two shot vig?

Fishing.

Would lynch today (more or less in order):

Roadrunner
Andrew
Calamitas
Awaclus
Space

Would not lynch today:

Galz
O
faust
pps
Eevee

Vote: Roadrunner again for this

I haven't voted yet today, which is a classic RR scum tell.

because I hate it.

You know how scum is more likely to have reads on their partners? Well this does not contain a single one of our confirmed townies. And it is a specific mention of Calamitas, which is rare.

I changed my mind about this being cleared up. I am still bothered by this.

He is "bothered" by J Reggie's claim and plan, but conveniently stays off the wagon.

how is this even a plan to escape lynching

no part of his plan includes "escaping lynching" any more than any normal VT claim would.

wiiiiiiiifom. it lets him escape lynching if it causes everyone to say "no scum would do this."

More of Cuzz pushing slightly towards a Reggie lynch without committing.

mcmc is obvscum whether or not JReggie flips town.

We'll want to keep this read in mind.

Sorry. Meant to snip more. I meant the Robz QT explanations. I am not sure what you are talking about.

I thought MCMC had a big scumslip when he started spewing random things about "twilight QT" being an argument that the Hammer Hero might be able to act while dead, assuming he had info I didn't on faction QT's.

Robz basically confirmed that what MCMC said about QTs was actually entirely false..? which makes it not as directly a scumslip in the least.

I agree. I was ready to park a vote on mcmc and not move it, but when Robz clarified the QT info I swung hard the other way. I sincerely doubt mcmc is mafia.

I call bullshit. How would the QT info change anything? Nobody would seriously believe that the mafia QT opens at twilight.

Also this is a bad vote and I'm not sure you've been paying attention to anything I've done all game if this is enough for you to vote for me.

What have you done this game that you think shows that you are town?

I think I've been doing quite a bit (posting reads, encouraging conversation, giving reasons for all my votes) but that's not even what I meant. I just meant that I've said and done a large enough volume of stuff in this game that if I were scum you'd probably be able to find better evidence of it than whatever Andrew is using that he still hasn't explained.

ppe: speak of the devil

This is highly scummy. Cuzz is basically saying Andrew not trying hard enough is shown by him not finding better evidence, when the only way he could find such evidence would be if Cuzz were scum. It shows that Cuzz has a scum point of view.

Okay. My point here is as follows: You seem to imply that Andrew hasn't been paying attention, and that is why the only piece of evidence he has for you being scum is what he talked about there. But if you truly were town, then there would be no other evidence that he could have found had he been paying attention. The only way you could deduce from his vote that he has not paying attention is if you are scum, and know that there are other things out there you've done that are more scummy than this.

Thus, you are scum.

I am town. A proof by contrapositive thus shows there is some logical flaw in that paragraph that I'll hunt for properly sometime later.

Oh I think we're just using "evidence" inconsistently:

i. Stuff used to justify one's perception that someone is scum.

ii. Stuff that actually implies that someone is scum.

By definition i, for example, we could say that people presented evidence of their cases on JReggie yesterday, but by definition ii this would not make sense since he was town. I think faust is only using ii and I think I've been inconsistently switching between them.

This is Cuzz' "rebuttal"; except, it's not one. He says that Andrew could have found evidence for Cuzz being scum even if he was town. If that's the case, then why was that prefaced with "if I were scum" (bolded in the previous post)?

Knowing myself to be town I obviously find it unconvincing, but trying to put myself in the shoes of others I don't think it's very strong either, but I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong on that.

This sort of thing is something Cuzz now does a fair bit, putting emphasis on how he's town. It's scummy.

O, would you consider white knighting/buddying me if you were scum and I was town?

if you were town?

Such a pointless comment, designed only to make RR look suspicious. This from someone who said earlier he believes scumslips to be extremely rare.

So who do we want to lynch now? I do have a suspicion that most of the more active players in this game are town.

Andrew and Jimmmmm are my top choices at the moment. Eevee, sudgy and ash are possibilities also. Could also be talked into iguana and Jake.

This is such and easy way out and there is no bit of evidence provided that the active players are actually town.

yeah so to be a bit of a killjoy I do wanna explore this a tad, even if we're not going to lynch either of them today. IF one was to have a suspicion that mcmc and TWM were scum, this quote would be worth taking a look at:

Faust you think ninja and one-shot cop are better roles for town than hammer hero?

Ninja is useless, one-shot cop can at max utility catch scum, at worst hit investigation immune/get blocked and receive no result. Hammer hero can at max utility create two unkillable IC's and at worst kill town. I think hammer hero is the better role here.

One could read this as scum!mcmc testing the waters to see whether town would buy the prospect of a town hammer hero. To me, personally, it seemed like a scummy role, which was why I was kinda raging at mcmc at the end of D1. For better or for worse, I was really not considering the idea that town would pick that role.

Also in the same quote is a breadcrumb for the hider plan. When I first read this I was confused. Maybe I'm just particularly bad at teasing out all the possible complicated PR interactions (spoiler: I am), but I do not think I would have spotted this synergy unless I had discussed it with someone. You could also read this as maaaaaybe mcmc being a little too confident that there was a "town" hider in the game.

To be clear, I do believe them and am cool with the plan for now, but it would be negligent not to consider otherwise, and I could be dead later in the game and unable to point any of this out.

Convenient setup for the late-game. Can just pull the "they have been scum all along!" narratvie then.

I know Ash is being such a drama queen right now that it's hard to think about anyone else but I was actually asking Cuzz why he scumreads me.

Mostly I got a pretty scummy vibe from the vote on Galz, and I think there was some stuff from D1 that I can't quite remember. Plus the level of activity seems to be in the scum sweet spot.

This is such nonsense. There is no such thing as a "scum sweet spot" for activity.

And finally, we have him pushing hard to lynch quickly on Andrew:

TWM who do you want to lynch instead who you can get 8 other people to agree with before tonight?

Look at all this evidence you found of someone being scum who is actually town! See, it is possible!

I wish this was enough for me to get a scumread on faust but I'm not quite there yet.

[pingpongsam]

That only works if you are willing to vote for someone other than O. If you are then you or I can be L-2 or L-1. If you aren't. Well then that isn't going to work. Are you willing to vote for someone other than O?

Why wouldn't I be willing to vote for someone other than O? I'm practically an IC so it's fine to take the risk of being on a non-scum lynch.

Right, so be useful, take off the tunnel blinders, and get some reads on others since we can generally consider your reads over others.

Maybe O is scum but there must be others. Help us figure out who likely is or isn't outside the O box you've confined yourself to.

[pingpongsam]

That only works if you are willing to vote for someone other than O. If you are then you or I can be L-2 or L-1. If you aren't. Well then that isn't going to work. Are you willing to vote for someone other than O?

Why wouldn't I be willing to vote for someone other than O? I'm practically an IC so it's fine to take the risk of being on a non-scum lynch.

Right, so be useful, take off the tunnel blinders, and get some reads on others since we can generally consider your reads over others.

Maybe O is scum but there must be others. Help us figure out who likely is or isn't outside the O box you've confined yourself to.

If Awaclus helps us find a scum outside O then I'd gladly lynch O to return the favor.

[Cuzz]

but yes i am the two shot vig.

O are you the two shot vig?

Fishing.

I think this is my favorite part.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Snipping. Is a thing. Also what is the difference between this

Look at all this evidence you found of someone being scum who is actually town! See, it is possible!

and this?

"That's not indicative of alignment!" is everyone's counterargument to everything in this game and it's a little tiresome.

[Cuzz]

Snipping. Is a thing. Also what is the difference between this

Look at all this evidence you found of someone being scum who is actually town! See, it is possible!

and this?

"That's not indicative of alignment!" is everyone's counterargument to everything in this game and it's a little tiresome.

Essentially that I know my alignment and I don't know Andrew's.

[Awaclus]

we can generally consider your reads over others.

Then why aren't you doing so already?

[Robz888]

Vote Count 2.7

Cuzz (3): faust, sudgy, pingpongsam
O (1): Awaclus
AndrewisFTTW (4): 2.71828...., lalight, eevee, O
Dylan23 (3): Galzria, AndrewisFTTW, JaketheBaseballGod22
LaLight (1): RoadRunner7671
sudgy (1): Dylan32
Galzria (1): iguanaiguana

Not Voting (6): SpaceAnemone, mcmcsalot, ashersky, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, The_Wine_Merchant

With 20 alive it takes just 10 to lynch. Day 2 ends on Sunday, May 28th, at 11:00 AM Forum Time.

[Cuzz]

Right now my top lynch choices are:

Jimmmm, Eevee, ashersky, Space, iguana, Dylan, Jake

but not in any particular order.

[Cuzz]

That Dylan wagon is the most viable right now, but the people on it are a little iffy, so I'll vote: Space

I am seriously up for anyone on that list though.

[faust]

Look at all this evidence you found of someone being scum who is actually town! See, it is possible!

I wish this was enough for me to get a scumread on faust but I'm not quite there yet.

Please come back to me when you've read the whole thing, which obviously you haven't.

And why would you think this makes me more scummy? You already knew I am scumreading you.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

mcmc are you gonna take immunity or the extra NK tonight?

Scum almost certainly knows whether there's a town vig or not. But then there's lots of wifom there about whether the vig should shoot mcmc.

Who are your top NK targets, mcmc? Lots of people have a pretty strong townread on me, but I don't know how amazing my reads have been so if they're bad maybe you want to keep me around.

So I like most of faust's case on Cuzz. Parts I don't like, that is fine. Biggest question for me is the above post. It just seems excessively brazen for scum. Yes, yes WIFOM and all of that. But it is a question mark for me.

[Dylan32]

That's what I would expect from a town faust.  It's also probably the biggest case anyone has made so far (I know big != right, but whatever). I'll go ahead and even up the Cuzz and Andrew wagons so the important people can choose, since apparently a bunch of people are scumreading or allegedly pretty willing to lynch  sudgy but nobody seems to be actually willing to vote him.  Vote: Cuzz

[Cuzz]

Look at all this evidence you found of someone being scum who is actually town! See, it is possible!

I wish this was enough for me to get a scumread on faust but I'm not quite there yet.

Please come back to me when you've read the whole thing, which obviously you haven't.

And why would you think this makes me more scummy? You already knew I am scumreading you.

Of course I read the whole thing, but it's not really for me to respond to. It's for others to buy or not buy.

The only reason it'd make me more suspicious of you is that I know you're a good player and the case is wrong so either you're scum or I'm playing a bad enough game that it causes a good town player to severely scumread me.

Ppe: more votes

[AndrewisFTTW]

Right now my top lynch choices are:

Jimmmm, Eevee, ashersky, Space, iguana, Dylan, Jake

but not in any particular order.

Oh so you're not interested in lynching me anymore?