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Author Topic: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?  (Read 3469 times)

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Forge!!!

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How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« on: February 08, 2012, 06:06:35 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/08/game-20120208-150343-95dda312.html

I know envoy/BM is a very competitive strategy, but he didn't really play BM, or his strategy particularly well, and I didn't feel that unlucky, so I'm assuming I did something wrong here. But I'm not entirely sure what it was. Should I have gone for more Ironworks earlier, instead of gardens?
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rrenaud

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 06:19:18 pm »
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ftl

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 06:25:15 pm »
+1

BIGGEST REASON: I believe you didn't get your second Ironworks until turn 11, if I've counted right?

That's not Ironworks/Gardens. That's BM+Gardens with a little ironworks support.
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ftl

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 06:31:18 pm »
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Play around with it in single-player. I think if your opponent doesn't contest you for gardens (As you knew he wasn't doing here, since he opened Envoy), it's optimal to gain something like 5 ironworks before your first gardens? This obviously differs if your opponent contests you for gardens.

Remember, ironworks are non-terminal, they don't collide. If you draw multiples in hand, use the first bunch to gain more actions (more IW, or villages, or crossroads) and then the last ones for green.

Also, the trade route is not helpful. You don't want trashing here. It looks like it gives you +buy, but that's a lie, you trash one card for the +buy, so it's like getting nothing at all. If you'd opened ironworks/crossroads or ironworks/silver, they would have worked better. You ended up trashing a few estates to it - coincidentally, if those estates hadn't been trashed, you would have ended up ahead on points.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 06:33:34 pm by ftl »
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Geronimoo

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 06:33:01 pm »
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Ironworks/Gardens mirror -> get 2 Ironworks before Gardens
Ironworks/Gardens vs any Province strategy -> get pretty much all the Ironworks before Gardens (well, not all, but a lot, like 5, 6 or 7).

Here's a sample solitaire game that gets almost twice your VP in 2 less turns(just played on the fly so far from optimal)
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/08/game-20120208-152629-d53119a4.html
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Forge!!!

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 07:01:36 pm »
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All right thanks everyone, that all makes a lot of sense. I should have realized something when he got an Envoy.
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Anon79

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 07:24:58 pm »
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Ironworks/Gardens mirror -> get 2 Ironworks before Gardens
Ironworks/Gardens vs any Province strategy -> get pretty much all the Ironworks before Gardens (well, not all, but a lot, like 5, 6 or 7).
All well and good, but Ironworks/Gardens vs I-don't-know-what-strategy-he's-going-for-yet -> ?
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barsooma

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 07:55:06 pm »
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Ironworks/Gardens mirror -> get 2 Ironworks before Gardens
Ironworks/Gardens vs any Province strategy -> get pretty much all the Ironworks before Gardens (well, not all, but a lot, like 5, 6 or 7).
All well and good, but Ironworks/Gardens vs I-don't-know-what-strategy-he's-going-for-yet -> ?

Get ironworks until you have enough or it becomes apparent he's going for gardens?
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ftl

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 08:17:19 pm »
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All well and good, but Ironworks/Gardens vs I-don't-know-what-strategy-he's-going-for-yet -> ?

Well, if he doesn't get Ironworks with either of his two opening buys, then you know he's not going for IW/gardens, so you load up on the ironworks - if he starts getting gardens, then you use your IW advantage to win the split even by reacting. If he DOES get IW on an opening, then he's likely going IW/gardens, so you have to make sure to start in on the gardens after your 2nd IW. Since you don't need to make the decision until your fourth buy at the earliest, you have plenty of time to see what's up.

It's a tricky decision only in the rare case where there's some other alternate strategy that still has a very similar opening.

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Anon79

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Re: How did Ironworks/Gardens fail here?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 02:32:09 am »
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All well and good, but Ironworks/Gardens vs I-don't-know-what-strategy-he's-going-for-yet -> ?

Well, if he doesn't get Ironworks with either of his two opening buys, then you know he's not going for IW/gardens, so you load up on the ironworks - if he starts getting gardens, then you use your IW advantage to win the split even by reacting. If he DOES get IW on an opening, then he's likely going IW/gardens, so you have to make sure to start in on the gardens after your 2nd IW. Since you don't need to make the decision until your fourth buy at the earliest, you have plenty of time to see what's up.

It's a tricky decision only in the rare case where there's some other alternate strategy that still has a very similar opening.
I don't think it's that rare, plenty of 5/2 openers don't tell you whether opponent is going Gardens or not (probably without the Ironworks though). Take e.g. a Tactician/Courtyard opening. I guess barsooma's advice works, get as many Ironworks as I think I can get away with first...
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