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Author Topic: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?  (Read 4038 times)

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catsclaw

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Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« on: February 03, 2012, 04:03:52 pm »
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In general, how do you decide between Trader and Horse Trader to open?

I just played this set and lost: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/03/game-20120203-125729-9a2fe120.html but it was a close game.  I'm not sure Horse Trader is a better opener, in the absence of attacks.  Thoughts?
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rrenaud

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 04:08:44 pm »
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Horse Traders is basically a renewable Feast.  When there is a nice $5, you want HT.  Hunting Party is definitely one of the nicer $5.  And HT is even first on the list for Hunting Party combos.

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/01/09/combo-of-the-day-27-hunting-partyx/

In the absence of nice $5 cards, or the presence of cursing attacks, I might Traders. 
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catsclaw

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 04:24:23 pm »
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And HT is even first on the list for Hunting Party combos.

It's strange that there was only a three point difference at the end of the game, then.  And that's with my opponent having an extra turn.
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Anon79

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 06:38:35 pm »
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And HT is even first on the list for Hunting Party combos.

It's strange that there was only a three point difference at the end of the game, then.  And that's with my opponent having an extra turn.
No it's not. That's because he bought Loan, which anti-synergises with the HP deck (only gives 1 coin, adds one new distinct card, and no, you don't really want to trash Coppers anyway). Not only that, he then proceeds to play it on multiple occasions that trigger a reshuffle. It's a wonder he was only punished once (his beautiful Turn 12 draw).
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 06:48:16 pm »
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I don't know what you mean by "faster". They are both reaction cards, so they depend heavily on what else is going on. Trader is better if you're trying to do something that gets all the provinces "fast", i.e. some big money variation. Horse Traders is "faster" if you're trying to end the game on piles (like a Duke rush) because it has +buy... Generally, I think Trader is a better opening more often, because it reacts to the stronger kind of attacks and because trashing is more important in an opening than +buy is. Horse Traders is a much more situational opening. Hunting party is defintely one of the situations in which Horse Traders is good, so here you might just want to go pure HT/HP.

Horse Traders is basically a renewable Feast. 
I don't really like this comparison at all. Feast gets you a card without using your buy. The primary/best use of Feast is really stuff like getting them with workshops so you can make 5s appear, or throning them to get multiple 5s, which is nothing like the use of Horse Traders. The only similarity is that as an opening with silver, they both give you an increased chance of hitting multiple 5s before the reshuffle, but both are pretty poor openings in general (level 1 and 0 on councilroom) for what that's worth.

If you're going to do a comparison to a base set card, the closest one is clearly woodcutter. "Horse Traders is basically a more stable woodcutter." (Stable in the sense that you can't really get good or bad draws with it since you discard the worst 2 cards whether they are good or bad, and in the sense that it lets you ignore handsize attacks.)
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jotheonah

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 08:50:32 pm »
+1

If you're going to do a comparison to a base set card, the closest one is clearly woodcutter. "Horse Traders is basically a more stable woodcutter." (Stable in the sense that you can't really get good or bad draws with it since you discard the worst 2 cards whether they are good or bad, and in the sense that it lets you ignore handsize attacks.)

No pun intended, I assume?
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Kuildeous

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 09:58:30 am »
+2

Everybody knows the Horse Trader is faster; he's on horseback.

Sorry, that last pun got to me.
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rrenaud

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 12:57:24 am »
+2


Horse Traders is basically a renewable Feast. 
I don't really like this comparison at all.

Magical card clustering algorithm likes this comparison!

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2996.msg51812#msg51812

Quote
Feast : Horse Traders, Bridge
Horse Traders : Bridge, Feast
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Asklepios

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 04:21:42 am »
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In general, how do you decide between Trader and Horse Trader to open?

I just played this set and lost: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/03/game-20120203-125729-9a2fe120.html but it was a close game.  I'm not sure Horse Trader is a better opener, in the absence of attacks.  Thoughts?

I think it depends what you mean by faster.

Horse Traders is fast at getting you an early $5, and in a board with Hunting Parties, this makes it an excellent card to go for, especially as later on it becomes an extra buy and extra $ without messing up the reshuffle pattern from a Hunting Party chain. See Turn 7!

Traders is pretty fast at generating Big Money for the mid game, but is slow to start off (as when you first draw it, you're playing a 3 card hand and at best probably getting no more than a silver), so I'd say that it works pretty well with decks where you intend to play one or no actions each turn. Say, Trader / Courtyard, or something like that.

But for this kingdom, I think Horse Traders was a better choice. Loan, otoh, I think was a damn weird choice. The deck thinning effect is counterbalanced by the fact that its another card for Hunting Party to draw, and it can move a load of crap back into the deck from the discard at the end of a Hunting Party chain. The choice of Loan slowed down your opponent, I believe, and was what allowed you to almost keep pace with him.

My own approach would have been Horse Traders / Silver, then Hunting Parties, one Gold, and going for Provinces pretty much only when all the Hunting Parties had gone.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 04:26:10 am by Asklepios »
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qmech

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 04:32:27 am »
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Horse Traders is much faster, as it's money up front, rather than at some vague point in the future.  If you're running Hunting Parties then you don't want that much Silver anyway: Horse Traders is possibly the second best Hunting Party support after Baron, with the same early boost to your economy and +Buy that becomes important in the mid-game onwards.
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cherdano

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Re: Which is faster, Trader or Horse Trader?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 05:08:44 am »
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These are very different cards. The constructive purpose of HT is to get to $5 early and often without clogging your deck with silvers. The constructive purpose of Trader is to clog your deck with an infinite amount of silver so that your deck is resilient to aggressive greening.

Meanwhile, the reaction of HT is a good defense against discard attacks (and a great defense against Minions). The reaction of Trader is a great defense against cursers.

Why are we comparing these two cards? To summarize:
Quote
In general, how do you decide between Trader and Horse Trader to open?
It depends on the kingdom.
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