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Author Topic: Kru5h's card ideas  (Read 116194 times)

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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #375 on: June 23, 2019, 09:39:45 pm »
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Old Smithy


Just curious, would Scheme provide a loophole here? It says "at the start of cleanup" but I'm not if sure "start" means you absolutely have to do it before anything else.

I might change it to just "trash this" instead of setting it aside then returning it. Much simpler text and fewer loopholes. I just hate to see the pile empty so fast, though.

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #376 on: June 24, 2019, 10:00:15 am »
+1

Old Smithy


Just curious, would Scheme provide a loophole here? It says "at the start of cleanup" but I'm not if sure "start" means you absolutely have to do it before anything else.

I might change it to just "trash this" instead of setting it aside then returning it. Much simpler text and fewer loopholes. I just hate to see the pile empty so fast, though.

I'm no rules expert but my interpretation is that the Scheme loophole doesn't work because the start of cleanup happens before you discard cards during cleanup.

I feel like the wording could be simplified to "At the start of Clean-up, you may pay $2. If you don't, return this to the supply." It feels more natural to me to have the payment happen in the cleanup rather than in the buy phase and then waiting until cleanup to do the returning. I also see no reason that this has to be set aside.
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scolapasta

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #377 on: June 24, 2019, 11:00:02 am »
0

ust curious, would Scheme provide a loophole here? It says "at the start of cleanup" but I'm not if sure "start" means you absolutely have to do it before anything else.

I might change it to just "trash this" instead of setting it aside then returning it. Much simpler text and fewer loopholes. I just hate to see the pile empty so fast, though.

I'm no rules expert but my interpretation is that the Scheme loophole doesn't work because the start of cleanup happens before you discard cards during cleanup.

The precedent for this would be Encampment / Scheme.

In both cases, the card is set aside. They can't be schemed because they are not discarded from play.

(while I agree start of clean up is before discarding, I don't think it would be different if it said at the end of cleanup. If you didn't return it, it would just remain set aside forever).

I feel like the wording could be simplified to "At the start of Clean-up, you may pay $2. If you don't, return this to the supply." It feels more natural to me to have the payment happen in the cleanup rather than in the buy phase and then waiting until cleanup to do the returning. I also see no reason that this has to be set aside.

I think this alternative could work, but think the setting aside is more future proof. (if ever there are cards that do things at start of cleanup)

One thing that seems ambiguous with the current wording: can you play $2 to keep multiple Old Smithies or do you have to pay for each? (I assume the desired effect is the latter)

« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 11:10:49 am by scolapasta »
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Gazbag

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #378 on: June 24, 2019, 11:36:23 am »
0

ust curious, would Scheme provide a loophole here? It says "at the start of cleanup" but I'm not if sure "start" means you absolutely have to do it before anything else.

I might change it to just "trash this" instead of setting it aside then returning it. Much simpler text and fewer loopholes. I just hate to see the pile empty so fast, though.

I'm no rules expert but my interpretation is that the Scheme loophole doesn't work because the start of cleanup happens before you discard cards during cleanup.

The precedent for this would be Encampment / Scheme.

In both cases, the card is set aside. They can't be schemed because they are not discarded from play.

(while I agree start of clean up is before discarding, I don't think it would be different if it said at the end of cleanup. If you didn't return it, it would just remain set aside forever).

I feel like the wording could be simplified to "At the start of Clean-up, you may pay $2. If you don't, return this to the supply." It feels more natural to me to have the payment happen in the cleanup rather than in the buy phase and then waiting until cleanup to do the returning. I also see no reason that this has to be set aside.

I think this alternative could work, but think the setting aside is more future proof. (if ever there are cards that do things at start of cleanup)

One thing that seems ambiguous with the current wording: can you play $2 to keep multiple Old Smithies or do you have to pay for each? (I assume the desired effect is the latter)

I'm pretty sure that if the Scheme loophole works then the card just doesn't work because you can always choose to discard it, Scheme topdecking it when you discard it doesn't really make a difference.
Encampment is set aside to help track that it gave +Actions and to "prevent recursion" and to make Plunder get covered up later so it's easier to buy. Experiment doesn't set aside as there's nothing to really track (and apparently recursion is fine now?), it's also the more recent card so I would tend to use that as the reference point. Old Smithy stays in play until cleanup anyway so these aren't issues for it. I don't see how it makes a difference with other start of cleanup things, currently the setting aside is just an unnecessary step. I'm interpreting the wording as meaning it's set aside at the start of cleanup and then immediately returned as "during your Buy phase" isn't a set point for this to trigger.
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scolapasta

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #379 on: June 24, 2019, 01:58:36 pm »
0

ust curious, would Scheme provide a loophole here? It says "at the start of cleanup" but I'm not if sure "start" means you absolutely have to do it before anything else.

I might change it to just "trash this" instead of setting it aside then returning it. Much simpler text and fewer loopholes. I just hate to see the pile empty so fast, though.

I'm no rules expert but my interpretation is that the Scheme loophole doesn't work because the start of cleanup happens before you discard cards during cleanup.

The precedent for this would be Encampment / Scheme.

In both cases, the card is set aside. They can't be schemed because they are not discarded from play.

(while I agree start of clean up is before discarding, I don't think it would be different if it said at the end of cleanup. If you didn't return it, it would just remain set aside forever).

I feel like the wording could be simplified to "At the start of Clean-up, you may pay $2. If you don't, return this to the supply." It feels more natural to me to have the payment happen in the cleanup rather than in the buy phase and then waiting until cleanup to do the returning. I also see no reason that this has to be set aside.

I think this alternative could work, but think the setting aside is more future proof. (if ever there are cards that do things at start of cleanup)

One thing that seems ambiguous with the current wording: can you play $2 to keep multiple Old Smithies or do you have to pay for each? (I assume the desired effect is the latter)

I'm pretty sure that if the Scheme loophole works then the card just doesn't work because you can always choose to discard it, Scheme topdecking it when you discard it doesn't really make a difference.
Encampment is set aside to help track that it gave +Actions and to "prevent recursion" and to make Plunder get covered up later so it's easier to buy. Experiment doesn't set aside as there's nothing to really track (and apparently recursion is fine now?), it's also the more recent card so I would tend to use that as the reference point. Old Smithy stays in play until cleanup anyway so these aren't issues for it. I don't see how it makes a difference with other start of cleanup things, currently the setting aside is just an unnecessary step. I'm interpreting the wording as meaning it's set aside at the start of cleanup and then immediately returned as "during your Buy phase" isn't a set point for this to trigger.

Good point about when the setting aside actually happens. As currently written, I would think it would happen after your buy phase ends, but before clean up begins (or before night, in games with night phase).

Re: my point about future "At start of your clean up phase" cards: imagine a card* with a clause "at the start of your clean up phase, +$1 next turn per 5 cards you have in play (round down)."  It would make a difference if already set aside or in play. This is likely a minimal edge case that doesn't require over complicating the card, so I agree with you the simpler wording is better. I just like to think about edge case. :)

(*) not saying this is a good card, just an example of a how it could make a difference.

Similarly, if you had a night card that card about cards in play.

If it's important for some reason to keep this at paying $ during buy phase, it should probably specify, "at the start of your buy phase".
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #380 on: June 24, 2019, 08:47:36 pm »
0

Out of all those cards, I'm only keeping these 3.

Cloister


Shield


Installment


Old Smithy seemed cool at the time, but having to pay each turn to keep it just feels bad. Most of the other cards work better with debt than as "payment" cards. Debt is just simpler but has already been done to death. Enjoy these 3. I'll start working on my next cards.

Also, I rejected this card shortly after making it.

Jetty


When do you have spare actions to gain a card? When you already have plenty of actions.
When do you have plenty of actions to spare? When you no longer need villages.
This card is mostly useless.

Edit: I changed an old card of mine, Ivory Tower. It DOES work during Clean-up phase now. Is that broken? We'll see.

Ivory Tower


Edit 2: Uploaded the wrong Cloister card. Fixed.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 09:35:44 pm by kru5h »
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Gubump

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #381 on: June 24, 2019, 10:01:38 pm »
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It really annoys me that Shield has the paying effect after a separating line even though neither of the other payment cards do. None of them should.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #382 on: June 24, 2019, 10:31:45 pm »
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It really annoys me that Shield has the paying effect after a separating line even though neither of the other payment cards do. None of them should.

I agree with you, but I tried it without the line and it looks like a wall of text. There's no logical reason for it, but makes the card look better.

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #383 on: June 24, 2019, 10:44:26 pm »
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It really annoys me that Shield has the paying effect after a separating line even though neither of the other payment cards do. None of them should.

I agree with you, but I tried it without the line and it looks like a wall of text. There's no logical reason for it, but makes the card look better.

I tried it out in the image generator I normally use (linked in my sig, using the Shard's GitHub version) and it looks much better without the line, IMO (also, we have official cards like Prince and Possession. Shield is nothing). It's also just confusing to have it be inconsistent.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #384 on: June 25, 2019, 12:57:42 am »
+1

I'll remove +1 Action if it's too strong here.

Cabin


A really tempting way to ruin your deck with Coppers.

kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #385 on: June 25, 2019, 08:29:25 pm »
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I fixed Jetty.

Jetty


Not sure if it's elegant or boring.

Not sure if it needs buffed or needs nerfed.

Edit: Also, I finally made this into a card.

Guard Tower

« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 09:14:43 pm by kru5h »
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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #386 on: June 25, 2019, 11:40:57 pm »
+1

When do you have spare actions to gain a card? When you already have plenty of actions.

Or if it's the only Action card in your hand, which will happen a lot in the beginning. It doesn't look all that useless to me. Maybe if it let you gain any card costing up to $4 instead...
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Gazbag

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #387 on: June 26, 2019, 07:26:41 am »
+1

When do you have spare actions to gain a card? When you already have plenty of actions.

Or if it's the only Action card in your hand, which will happen a lot in the beginning. It doesn't look all that useless to me. Maybe if it let you gain any card costing up to $4 instead...

Yeah I didn't really follow Kru5h's logic here, a village for $4 is already a useful enough card to get bought in most games and having a choice to gain a copy of itself instead seems like a much bigger upside compared to things like Walled Village or even Mining Village.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #388 on: June 26, 2019, 08:22:16 pm »
+1

Okay, guys, you convinced me. I'll revert to the old Jetty. It does kinda have some charm to it.

Also, I need help with something.

I submitted this card to the no-vanilla++ design contest:

Bookstore v3


but I kinda like this card better:

King Midas


Should I switch cards?

Edit: Fixed wording.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 08:32:45 pm by kru5h »
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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #389 on: June 27, 2019, 01:29:20 am »
0

King Midas


Using "instead" here has confusing ramifications. I think it should say "...when another player plays an Attack card, they trash it and gain a Gold instead of following its instructions." King Midas should also definitely be an Attack itself. And there being multiple King Midases (since he's a Kingdom card) is kinda weird lore-wise. I would suggest the name "Cursed King."

I personally don't like blind trashing (that's why Lookout is currently my least favorite card in the game), but the fact that it gives you a Gold in exchange more than makes up for it. I like it more than Bookstore, personally.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 01:31:21 am by Gubump »
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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #390 on: June 27, 2019, 03:29:24 pm »
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Jetty looks fine. Easy to test it directly in a Kingdom with Artisan and Lab.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #391 on: June 27, 2019, 10:15:44 pm »
0

I know stuff like this has been done before, but the most recent expansion makes the wording a lot easier.

Plague, Reaction $0 (Supply = Same as Curse Supply)
When something causes you to reveal this (using the word "reveal"), gain a Plague.

Plague Doctor, Action-Attack, $5
Gain a Silver to your hand.
Each other player reveals their hand and gains a Plague.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 10:16:46 pm by kru5h »
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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #392 on: June 28, 2019, 05:23:56 am »
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I know stuff like this has been done before, but the most recent expansion makes the wording a lot easier.

Plague, Reaction $0 (Supply = Same as Curse Supply)
When something causes you to reveal this (using the word "reveal"), gain a Plague.

Plague Doctor, Action-Attack, $5
Gain a Silver to your hand.
Each other player reveals their hand and gains a Plague.
I like it but it is kind of the opposite of Mountebank, i.e. it is a junk amplifier instead of moderator.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #393 on: June 29, 2019, 01:33:30 am »
0

Some updates.

Shield


King Midas


Plague/Plague Doctor
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 01:35:59 am by kru5h »
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #394 on: June 30, 2019, 12:33:42 am »
0

This is all I could think of today. Still working on them a bit, but here's what I got so far.

Cats, Action $4
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
If it costs $1 or more, put this into your hand.

(Really good at getting rid of those pesky Rats.)

Enhance, Action $3
Reveal a non-Victory card from your hand.
Discard it. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

(Like a weaker Remodel, but you get to keep your card.)

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #395 on: June 30, 2019, 07:58:06 am »
+2

This is all I could think of today. Still working on them a bit, but here's what I got so far.

Cats, Action $4
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
If it costs $1 or more, put this into your hand.

(Really good at getting rid of those pesky Rats.)

Enhance, Action $3
Reveal a non-Victory card from your hand.
Discard it. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

(Like a weaker Remodel, but you get to keep your card.)

I like the variable number of cards Cats can trash. However, you can get an infinite loop trashing Fortress which would be bad if Tomb were present.

I think Enhance should be able to discard Estates. Otherwise it is not useful in the early game.
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kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #396 on: June 30, 2019, 03:59:25 pm »
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Cats, Action $4
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
If it costs $1 or more, put this into your hand.

I like the variable number of cards Cats can trash. However, you can get an infinite loop trashing Fortress which would be bad if Tomb were present.

That's a doubly good point because that affects one of my other cards, Tinker:

Tinker


It doesn't give +1 Action, but with Lost Arts or Champion, you can get infinite loops/points.

kru5h

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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #397 on: July 01, 2019, 08:35:21 pm »
0

I had this card idea, but it's probably too slow to resolve with all the decisions you have to make.

Rearrange, Action $2
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile and at the top card of your deck.
Set aside a card each from your hand, the top of your deck, and your discard pile.
Put one each into your hand, on the top of your deck, and your discard pile.

Edit: Forgot the +1 Action.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:39:39 pm by kru5h »
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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #398 on: July 01, 2019, 10:14:46 pm »
+2

I had this card idea, but it's probably too slow to resolve with all the decisions you have to make.

Rearrange, Action $2
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile and at the top card of your deck.
Set aside a card each from your hand, the top of your deck, and your discard pile.
Put one each into your hand, on the top of your deck, and your discard pile.

Edit: Forgot the +1 Action.

You could just make the rearranging forced:
Rearrange
+1 Action
Discard the top card of your deck.
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck.
Look through your discard pile. Put a card from it into your hand.
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Re: Kru5h's card ideas
« Reply #399 on: July 01, 2019, 11:02:30 pm »
0

I had this card idea, but it's probably too slow to resolve with all the decisions you have to make.

Rearrange, Action $2
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile and at the top card of your deck.
Set aside a card each from your hand, the top of your deck, and your discard pile.
Put one each into your hand, on the top of your deck, and your discard pile.

Edit: Forgot the +1 Action.

What do you do if your discard pile is empty (or your deck or hand for that matter)? Can you choose which place not to put either of the two cards in?

You could just make the rearranging forced:
Rearrange
+1 Action
Discard the top card of your deck.
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck.
Look through your discard pile. Put a card from it into your hand.

Yes, I like this a lot better. Much simpler and gets rid of rules confusions.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 11:03:57 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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