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[Teundes]

Hello everyone,

I've been passively enjoying your wisdom for quite a while now, but this is actually my first post on this forum 

So my friend and I have stumbled upon this board IRL (since I don't have all the cards on MF yet, I don't know how to get the visualizer to work, could someone maybe be so kind as to help with that?):

Kingdom: Peasant, Develop, Menagerie, Duplicate, Ranger, Upgrade, Festival, Wharf, Border Village, King's Court

It seems like the game will end really really quick, but no matter what I try, I always need like 12-15 turns to end the game on a three pile if my opponent is not helping at all. From what I've witnessed on this forum, I'm absolutely sure there has got to be a faster and better way to do this, so I'm really looking forward to hearing your opinion on this board.

My thoughts so far:
- Obviously I'm trying for a KC-Upgrade megaturn with the help of lots of Duplicates to empty Border Villages and two other piles.
- Developing a Border Village looks a lot better than upgrading it, but since Develop is a stop card I always tend to do the latter.
- To get the engine going, I really want to play KC-KC-Wharf-Upgrade at some point. Is that even necessary and if so, what's the fastest way to get there?
- Regarding the opening: What are my options? Develop seems a little slow; the Menageries I gain from trashing the Estates are fine but it doesn't really get me closer to getting 5-7$. Menagerie mostly just replaces itself for the first turns because my trashing is relatively slow. Silver/Silver doesn't seem too terrible. If I get a 6$ hand, I can get BV + Upgrade to get the trashing going and there is probably going to be a 3-4$ hand as well to pick up the Develop.
- Peasant does not seem to be too important. For the first few turns I'm lacking the action space to play it alongside a trasher and after that ending the game is my first priority.
- Do I even want any Rangers on this board? KC-Ranger draws an awful lot of cards, but KC-Wharf just seems so much better.

Anyway since I'm not that experienced a player please don't be too harsh if I'm wrong 
Thanks in advance for your help! 

[shark_bait]

On your thoughts -

1.)  Border Villages will be empty by the time Duplicate could have a chance of emptying the pile in a megaturn.  You could potentially get 1 or 2 extra BV from Duplicate though, just not the bulk of the pile.
2.)  Developing a BV puts a KC/Wharf on top of you deck.  This is a strong play
3.)  Ultimately, yes, you want to be making KC trees with your draw and other trash for benefit cards.  Develop is especially notable here as it gains 2 cards for the price of one.  A well played turn will use cards gained on a given turn to gain more cards that turn thus emptying the supply and winning the game extremely abruptly.
4.)  Develop/Silver is my opening of choice.  You need the Silver to bootstrap you up to $6.  You also need the Develop for trashing higher value cards later.  Early it can be used to get rid of Estates.  I don't like Menagerie as an opening as it won't draw 3 cards and towards the end game you are likely going to have enough draw without it.  I would however, Develop my Estates into Menagerie as a 2nd Silver is not needed.
5.)  Peasant line contains Disciple.  Teacher seems unnecessary as all the proper engine components are present.  Disciple however aids in controlling the 3-pile end game condition.
6.)  You are right, KC/Wharf is much better.  A ranger or two would be good as it can be good to have extra draw cards available to play.  It does compete with Duplicate at $4.  Duplicate can be used to gain extra Border Villages in the building phase and then work towards 3-pile control at the end. 

This is a very reactive game.  How each 5 card starting hand presents itself will have vast implications on how fast you build.  This game will be won by who first gets to the point where no hand is a dud hand.  Trashing helps prevent these duds.  I would get Upgrade with my first $5 or $6 (from BV) and then prioritize Wharf.  The little bit of initial trashing will get you to where you need to be.  Combined with the Develop opening, reliability should come as soon as you start getting your first Wharves in play.  From there it is an exponential rise to the win.

[ipofanes]

To add, I have a soft spot for Menagerie with Upgrade. They could be considered targets for Estate upgrades or Wharf +buys.

[Limetime]

To add, I have a soft spot for Menagerie with Upgrade. They could be considered targets for Estate upgrades or Wharf +buys.

Menagerie hates Wharf.

[Teundes]

Thanks for replying! 

I tried to implement your advice and ran a few test games against a bot.
Of course you're completely right, Duplicate is at most a fringe benefit from developing Menageries or Silvers, I overestimated its effect on the game immensely.
Develop is still a very tricky card for me to play, I get lost fairly quickly deciding what to trash and what to topdeck. I guess that skill will only come with time.
As for the opening, Develop/Silver is also what I had previously mostly stuck with and it seems to me to be the strongest on this board. The only thing I'm not completely sold on is developing all your estates exclusively into Menageries. Suppose you draw a hand with CCC+Develop+E early in the game. Maybe it's just my impression, but developing the Estate into another Silver at this point gets me to more reliable 5-6$ hands while I can pick up the Menagerie with the 3$ my hand produced this turn.
Also I have to agree with Limetime, after a few turns I just have too many Wharfs for the Menageries to be of any use mostly just drawing a single card. (I don't really know if that's exactly what you meant)

Nevertheless the strategy now wins more or less reliably in 12 turns which I think is quite fast for a rush against an opponent who doesn't help emptying piles. I would expect the game to be over in about 10 turns in a mirror match, is that reasonable?

Follow-up-question: Suppose you exchange Wharf for HoP, how does your strategy change?
Ranger seems a lot more important in this case and the possiblities for gaining cards are a lot more confusing to me.

[drsteelhammer]

I think I'd open Silver/Silver and upgrade one of my estates into a develop.

And by the way, being bad at Develop is nothing to be ashamed of. I don't think you'll find more than a handful people on the forums who'd claim they are good with the card.

Not buying it when poor house is on the board you're already above average I'd say