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Author Topic: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown  (Read 8170 times)

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ravi

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High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« on: May 31, 2016, 05:29:32 am »
+1

I was playing a league Match where I am currently leading the division and I could easily see one game making a difference in whether I promote or not. So basically, the stakes are high here and that makes it even worse.

Kingdom:


Code: [Select]
Native Village, Scrying Pool, Develop, Oracle, Woodcutter, Trader, Catacombs, Mine, Border Village, Grand Market
I open develop potion and go for a scrying pool engine. I need to get Border Villages and Grand Markets but have trouble hitting 5 or 6 for a while. My opponent fairs slightly better in a similar strategy and is about to kick off a massive turn. Scrying Pools and Native Villages run out and I see an opportunity. There are only 4 woodcutters left in the supply and I have 2 estates left to my opponent's 0 and I have enough actions with Develop, Catacombs, 2 woodcutters, a silver and 4 coppers in hand with a couple coins from other cards. I see that if I develop my Catacombs I can gain a woodcutter and I can play the other 2 woodcutters to get 3 buys. I also will have a bit more than 9 coins so bam! I can get a 3 pile ending. I recalculate a few times to make sure and then go for it.

I play the develop, gain the woodcutter. Then I play the woodcutters and "Play All Treasures" and start buying the woodcutters, but there is one woodcutter left on my last buy and somehow I only have 2 coins. What has happened? I double and triple counted how could this be?

Well when I "played all treasures" it only played my silver and not my coppers because Grand Market was on the board and the coppers would block it. Of course, once I start buying I can't play my treasures anymore. I let my opponent know what happens, he sympathizes but just says that misclicks are part of the game sometimes.  So I grab an estate with my two coins and he kicks off and easily gets more points and buys the last woodcutter to finish the game.

This was a pretty crushing misclick and I just wanted to share it. Man that was tough. I mean, I know mislicks midgame can also mean the game but this one really stopped me from winning in a league match when I had it in hand. Was just too focussed on making sure I counted correctly and forgot all about grand markets and the fact that "Play All Treasures" doesn't actually mean "Play All Treasures"

Log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160529/log.0.1464552495060.txt
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faust

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 06:03:30 am »
+1

Man, if there's a misclick early on or in the midgame, you just have to play it out, because it is unclear who will win and who would have won. But grabbing the win from someone who clearly had it in his final turn just because you can is a dick move, especially in a league game.
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Davio

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2016, 06:07:36 am »
+3

Man, at least Develop your Catacombs into a BV and gain a Woodcutter of the BV gain!

In that case you would have had the $6 to buy the last 2 Woodcutters.
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ravi

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2016, 06:53:48 am »
0

Man, at least Develop your Catacombs into a BV and gain a Woodcutter of the BV gain!

In that case you would have had the $6 to buy the last 2 Woodcutters.

Totally didn't see that. But once I figure out a forced win that is for sure I don't usually go around trying to make it a better forced win. If I needed to catch up on points or something then I may have looked for something like that.
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ravi

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2016, 06:55:50 am »
+5

Man, if there's a misclick early on or in the midgame, you just have to play it out, because it is unclear who will win and who would have won. But grabbing the win from someone who clearly had it in his final turn just because you can is a dick move, especially in a league game.

I don't know. On one hand, yeah I had the win and it was just a misclick. But I did make "a mistake". I considered asking him to resign, but I thought that would have been too contentious. I don't really think he is a dick for taking the win. Would have been REALLY spirited for him to give me the win, but kind of normal for him to keep the win off my mistake. Not really a dick move I think.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2016, 09:24:48 am »
+1

I've always made many misclicks with the poor Goko interface and even going back to good isotropic interface. I made at least 3 big mistakes playing a league match last night, including discarding cards to a vault instead of playing them as actions, ending an entire turn when I just wanted not to call a card from the tavern mat, and wrongly exchanging a disciple into a teacher (being distracted by having a princed peasant and a peasant in play and Goko not differentiating which to promote). It is however all part of the game. I have had a good record in Dominion, many finals and virtually the top of the leaderboard, despite these problems and I'm sure other people can do so too.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2016, 10:02:37 am »
+5

Man, if there's a misclick early on or in the midgame, you just have to play it out, because it is unclear who will win and who would have won. But grabbing the win from someone who clearly had it in his final turn just because you can is a dick move, especially in a league game.

I don't know. On one hand, yeah I had the win and it was just a misclick. But I did make "a mistake". I considered asking him to resign, but I thought that would have been too contentious. I don't really think he is a dick for taking the win. Would have been REALLY spirited for him to give me the win, but kind of normal for him to keep the win off my mistake. Not really a dick move I think.
You could consider "not misclicking" to be a trait of a good player and therefore it's okay to take advantage of it.

After all, it's not divine intervention, simply a human error.
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faust

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2016, 10:14:44 am »
+2

Man, if there's a misclick early on or in the midgame, you just have to play it out, because it is unclear who will win and who would have won. But grabbing the win from someone who clearly had it in his final turn just because you can is a dick move, especially in a league game.

I don't know. On one hand, yeah I had the win and it was just a misclick. But I did make "a mistake". I considered asking him to resign, but I thought that would have been too contentious. I don't really think he is a dick for taking the win. Would have been REALLY spirited for him to give me the win, but kind of normal for him to keep the win off my mistake. Not really a dick move I think.
You could consider "not misclicking" to be a trait of a good player and therefore it's okay to take advantage of it.

After all, it's not divine intervention, simply a human error.

Well, I would like the best Dominion player to win, not the guy who's best at handling MFs mediocre interface. Because that's just a crutch. If that match happened IRL, then ravi would have won. I don't think a match's outcome should change based on the platform it's played on.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2016, 10:29:09 am »
+3

I would like to agree, but sadly, being able to handle the platform is part of the skill in online Dominion.

Online Dominion is different from offline Dominion, tracking VPs is a lot easier to do online, counting actions/buys etc...

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ravi

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2016, 10:43:13 am »
+7

Man, if there's a misclick early on or in the midgame, you just have to play it out, because it is unclear who will win and who would have won. But grabbing the win from someone who clearly had it in his final turn just because you can is a dick move, especially in a league game.

I don't know. On one hand, yeah I had the win and it was just a misclick. But I did make "a mistake". I considered asking him to resign, but I thought that would have been too contentious. I don't really think he is a dick for taking the win. Would have been REALLY spirited for him to give me the win, but kind of normal for him to keep the win off my mistake. Not really a dick move I think.
You could consider "not misclicking" to be a trait of a good player and therefore it's okay to take advantage of it.

After all, it's not divine intervention, simply a human error.

Well, I would like the best Dominion player to win, not the guy who's best at handling MFs mediocre interface. Because that's just a crutch. If that match happened IRL, then ravi would have won. I don't think a match's outcome should change based on the platform it's played on.

Well that's tough. He is "the better Dominion player" given that he is Level 39 and I am Level 35 on the gokosalvager leaderboard. So it's not about the better Dominion player, it is about who wins the games in that match. Luck can always make a weaker player beat a stronger player. Or just the fact that I am better at a few cards and am lucky that those cards showed up in the game we happened to play for this match.

As for whether I would win IRL, there are other variables as well. If there were no point counters would I remember that I had two estates and he had 0? Would I have seen that there were only 4 woodcutters left or bothered checking without the clear number to see?

Hard to tell. Like Stef said in the thread I posted in the League Board. He beat me at this online dominion match. We were competing in online dominion and the outcome was that I lost the game.

If he chose to give me the win I would have taken it and thanked him a lot. But I don't think he is obligated to, or that I should think poorly of him for not doing it.

I do like trying to think of what I would do in the situation. I think I would give the other player the win, but it's easier to say than to do.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2016, 06:27:00 pm »
0

Stef has some pretty good comments here. League matches come down to games using the online interface, and using the interface correctly is part of the game.

I would say something like:
"Oops, I have 3 copper in hand that I forgot to play."

If this happened to my opponent, I would consider giving my opponent the win. 

Generally contentious to discuss beyond a clear acknowledgement of the game state.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2016, 06:31:51 am »
+4

Regardless of whether or not using the MF interface correctly is considered part of the game or not, this topic gives me a bad taste in my mouth.

As far as I see it, the Game Reports subforum is a place to share your interesting games with the rest of the community. Maybe because you want some insights from other players, maybe because you want to tell about an interesting card interaction, maybe because you just want to brag. And that's all completely fine.

This topic seems to be different though. You don't care about the game itself; it seems to be merely a complaint about how an error involving the interface cost you a game. And that's something that you already complained about in this season's discussion topic (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15507.msg604740#msg604740). It kinda makes me wonder why you care so much about a single game. Are you trying to make your opponent feel bad? You say that you don't think he's a dick for not giving you the win, but you give off a vibe that says otherwise.

It also kinda makes me nervous because I still have to play against you this season. I hope you don't put me under this kind of pressure if you make another misclick.
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Joseph2302

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2016, 06:57:57 am »
0


It also kinda makes me nervous because I still have to play against you this season. I hope you don't put me under this kind of pressure if you make another misclick.
Seconded, as I also have to play you later in the season, and don't want to feel under pressure to resign games due to misclicks or whatever.
Sometimes you should win but don't, that's life. It'll even itself out at some point.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2016, 03:30:36 pm »
+3

It also kinda makes me nervous because I still have to play against you this season. I hope you don't put me under this kind of pressure if you make another misclick.

Quick, everyone misclick against Aleimon!
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2016, 04:50:51 pm »
+2

I saw this from another thread, and I didn't comment on this thread before, but I want to say something important, and that is to be civil and kind. If you misclicked, you misclicked. That's that. What I am slightly concerned about is this thread turning into accusations. I agree that the tone of the thread was not the greatest idea ever, but I think Ravi meant well. It is good to remember that Dominion is just a game in the end, even when played competitively.

Another tip as well: Play slowly. Take your time. You don't have to rush anything. You play fast, you're probably not playing optimally. There are tons of neat little tricks you can do in any given game that can culminate in a slight edge, and there are also less misclicks.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 04:55:01 pm by Seprix »
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2016, 04:59:48 pm »
+1

Since Adventures came out, I have been misclicking more often. It happens to everyone. Even the highest rated players misclick from time to time.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2016, 05:01:51 pm »
0

Since Adventures came out, I have been misclicking more often. It happens to everyone. Even the highest rated players misclick from time to time.

This is very true. I had a game last week were I was sorely outplayed, and I had the chance to take the quick victory on a 3-pile, and because I neglected to buy Messenger first over the Colony, I did not get the spread effect, costing me the game. :)
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ravi

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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2016, 12:17:20 am »
+8

 
Regardless of whether or not using the MF interface correctly is considered part of the game or not, this topic gives me a bad taste in my mouth.

As far as I see it, the Game Reports subforum is a place to share your interesting games with the rest of the community. Maybe because you want some insights from other players, maybe because you want to tell about an interesting card interaction, maybe because you just want to brag. And that's all completely fine.

This topic seems to be different though. You don't care about the game itself; it seems to be merely a complaint about how an error involving the interface cost you a game. And that's something that you already complained about in this season's discussion topic (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15507.msg604740#msg604740). It kinda makes me wonder why you care so much about a single game. Are you trying to make your opponent feel bad? You say that you don't think he's a dick for not giving you the win, but you give off a vibe that says otherwise.

It also kinda makes me nervous because I still have to play against you this season. I hope you don't put me under this kind of pressure if you make another misclick.

On rereading what I have posted I think your concerns here are totally valid and I want to apologize for being a bit unclear here and giving off that vibe.  I repeatedly said that I don't have any ill will towards my opponent and I won't hold it against any future opponents if they do the same thing. It seems you have the order of my posts a bit incorrect so maybe that adds to the confusion. I actually posted this in Game Reports FIRST and then posted in the League Discussion since I was curious about how people in the league felt about it. This is how things went down:

1. This misclick sucked and it was a very different type of misclick than what I have done before (given that it stopped a forced win). Therefore I posted this in the general Game Reports section. The point of this post was just to vent about this misclick. In all responses I put up after that I think I defended my opponent's decision.

2. I linked to it in the Features thread of Dominion Online because I thought that really "Play All Treasures" is a misleading button title when it doesn't actually do that. I think a better title on the button or a change of color or something would be good when it doesn't actually play all of the treasures. This was genuinely an attempt to get SCSN and Stef to change the interface in a positive way.

3. This is where I think I may have gone wrong, but I then reposted a link in the League asking for people's opinions. I posted here right after I saw faust's post saying that he thinks it was unspirited for an opponent to not give someone a win when it is due to an interface error and not a playing error and the opponent had an obvious forced win so there was no question of victory afterward. I was genuinely curious as to what others playing the league would think of this situation and how they would respond and thought that it makes for a good topic on a forum about Dominion and the Dominion League. I wholeheartedly agree with what Stef posted in that misclicks are part of the game and that it is totally fine not to give an opponent a win just because they misclicked.

Given all of that, I can totally understand how this may seem like I was trying to shame my opponent or something and I really want to just clearly state that this was not my intention at all. I have played this opponent twice in league matches so far and have thoroughly enjoyed playing them both times. Please don't feel any pressure to resign on misclicks playing me or anyone else in the future, I just thought this made for interesting conversation and given some of the responses it seems that others enjoyed adding to it as well.

Honestly I feel pretty bad that future opponents in the league may think poorly of me because of my decision to post this. I just play this for fun, and talk about this game for fun. I hope that we can have some enjoyable matches in the future and that I don't make other players nervous about playing me because I brought this topic up.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2016, 12:19:32 am »
0

Also in response to this not belonging in this subforum, the description states "Show off your epic wins, or laugh at your epic fails." I thought this was an epic fail of mine which is why I wanted to post it here.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2016, 04:49:17 am »
+1

Ravi, thank you very much for clarifying, and sorry for misunderstanding you. It's sometimes a bit difficult with written tekst, as you surely know. No hard feelings. :)
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2016, 04:58:15 am »
0

Ravi, thank you very much for clarifying, and sorry for misunderstanding you. It's sometimes a bit difficult with written tekst, as you surely know. No hard feelings. :)
Ravi,
Same from me. I also have no hard feelings, and look forward to playing you some time.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2016, 10:28:22 am »
+7

That was all handled with far too much civility, guys.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2016, 10:29:23 am »
+2

That was all handled with far too much civility, guys.

Too much civility, not enough decline.
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2016, 11:01:43 am »
+7

That was all handled with far too much civility, guys.

Well fuck you then.  :P
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Re: High Stakes Miserable Grand Market Misclick - Ouchtown
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2016, 11:07:15 am »
+9

That was all handled with far too much civility, guys.
Civility is far more skippable than people think.
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