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[Data10]

I'm a new player who started playing Dominion a few days ago on playdominion.com.   I enjoy the game, particularly as I see how complex and varying strategy can be.   I've read through the basic articles on this site and have played enough games to have my own style of playing that varies depending on what the kingdom cards are and what my opponent is doing in.  However, I'd like to further improve my play, perhaps by getting ideas from seeing others' strategies.   Is there a forum/thread/article that gives examples of specific combinations of 10 kingdom cards and how people would play them, preferably with only the base game cards (have not purchased any additional cards)?

For example, in my most recent game, the supply cards were as follows: Chapel, Woodcutter, Bureaucrat, Feast, Gardens, Moneylender, Remodel, Spy, Thief, Mine.   I used a chapel - big money type strategy where I used the chapel to get rid of my estates and coppers, built up a few golds, then started buying victory cards.  After seeing what I was doing, my opponent used spy/thief combos to try to steal my golds.  The full game result is at the bottom of this post.  How would others have played this game?


------------ Game Setup ------------
Supply cards: Chapel, Woodcutter, Bureaucrat, Feast, Gardens, Moneylender, Remodel, Spy, Thief, Mine, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse
Rating system: professional
Data10 - starting cards: Estate, Estate, Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
Opponent - starting cards: Estate, Estate, Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
Data10 - shuffles deck
Opponent - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Copper, Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper
Opponent - draws Copper, Estate, Copper, Estate, Estate
 
---------- Data10: turn 1 ----------
Data10 - plays 4 Copper
Data10 - buys Silver
Data10 - gains Silver
Data10 - draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper
 
---------- Opponent: turn 1 ----------
Opponent - plays 2 Copper
Opponent - buys Chapel
Opponent - gains Chapel
Opponent - draws Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- Data10: turn 2 ----------
Data10 - plays 3 Copper
Data10 - buys Chapel
Data10 - gains Chapel
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Chapel, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
 
---------- Opponent: turn 2 ----------
Opponent - plays 5 Copper
Opponent - buys Mine
Opponent - gains Mine
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Copper, Mine, Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- Data10: turn 3 ----------
Data10 - plays Chapel
Data10 - trashes Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
Data10 - draws Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Silver
 
---------- Opponent: turn 3 ----------
Opponent - plays Mine
Opponent - trashes Copper
Opponent - gains Silver
Opponent - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
Opponent - buys Bureaucrat
Opponent - gains Bureaucrat
Opponent - draws Copper, Estate, Chapel, Estate, Copper
 
---------- Data10: turn 4 ----------
Data10 - plays 3 Copper, 1 Silver
Data10 - buys Silver
Data10 - gains Silver
Data10 - draws Copper, Copper
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Copper, Chapel, Copper
 
---------- Opponent: turn 4 ----------
Opponent - plays Chapel
Opponent - trashes Copper, Estate, Copper, Estate
Opponent - draws Copper, Copper
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Chapel, Copper, Mine
 
---------- Data10: turn 5 ----------
Data10 - plays Chapel
Data10 - trashes Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
Data10 - draws Silver, Silver, Estate, Copper
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Chapel
 
---------- Opponent: turn 5 ----------
Opponent - plays Mine
Opponent - trashes Copper
Opponent - gains Silver
Opponent - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
Opponent - buys Thief
Opponent - gains Thief
Opponent - draws Bureaucrat, Estate, Silver, Copper
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Mine
 
---------- Data10: turn 6 ----------
Data10 - plays Chapel
Data10 - trashes Estate, Copper
Data10 - plays 2 Silver
Data10 - buys Silver
Data10 - gains Silver
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Chapel, Silver, Silver, Silver
 
---------- Opponent: turn 6 ----------
Opponent - plays Mine
Opponent - trashes Copper
Opponent - gains Silver
Opponent - plays 2 Silver
Opponent - buys Spy
Opponent - gains Spy
Opponent - draws Copper, Chapel, Copper, Thief, Silver
 
---------- Data10: turn 7 ----------
Data10 - plays 3 Silver
Data10 - buys Gold
Data10 - gains Gold
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Silver, Silver, Gold, Chapel, Silver
 
---------- Opponent: turn 7 ----------
Opponent - plays Thief
Opponent - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
Opponent - buys Spy
Opponent - gains Spy
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Copper, Thief, Silver, Mine, Estate
 
---------- Data10: turn 8 ----------
Data10 - plays 3 Silver, 1 Gold
Data10 - buys Gold
Data10 - gains Gold
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Silver, Chapel, Gold, Gold, Silver
 
---------- Opponent: turn 8 ----------
Opponent - plays Mine
Opponent - trashes Copper
Opponent - gains Silver
Opponent - plays 2 Silver
Opponent - buys Spy
Opponent - gains Spy
Opponent - draws Chapel, Copper, Silver, Bureaucrat, Spy
 
---------- Data10: turn 9 ----------
Data10 - plays 2 Silver, 2 Gold
Data10 - buys Province
Data10 - gains Province
Data10 - draws Silver
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Chapel, Gold, Silver, Province
 
---------- Opponent: turn 9 ----------
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Spy
Opponent - discards Silver
Data10 - discards Gold
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Mine
Opponent - discards Thief
Data10 - discards Silver
Opponent - plays Mine
Opponent - trashes Copper
Opponent - gains Silver
Opponent - plays 2 Silver
Opponent - buys Spy
Opponent - gains Spy
Opponent - draws Silver, Spy, Silver, Estate, Silver
 
---------- Data10: turn 10 ----------
Data10 - plays 2 Silver, 1 Gold
Data10 - buys Gold
Data10 - gains Gold
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Province, Silver, Gold, Gold, Gold
 
---------- Opponent: turn 10 ----------
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Silver
Opponent - places Spy on top of deck
Data10 - places Chapel on top of deck
Opponent - plays 4 Silver
Opponent - buys Gold
Opponent - gains Gold
Opponent - draws Spy, Silver, Spy, Bureaucrat, Spy
 
---------- Data10: turn 11 ----------
Data10 - plays 3 Gold, 1 Silver
Data10 - buys Province
Data10 - gains Province
Data10 - draws Chapel, Silver, Silver
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Gold, Province
 
---------- Opponent: turn 11 ----------
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Chapel
Opponent - places Mine on top of deck
Data10 - discards Gold
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Mine
Opponent - places Thief on top of deck
Data10 - discards Gold
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Thief
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - places Silver on top of deck
Data10 - discards Silver
Opponent - plays Thief
Data10 - reveals: Province
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - reveals: Silver
Data10 - trashes Silver
Data10 - discards Province
Opponent - gains Silver
Opponent - plays 1 Silver
Opponent - draws Silver, Silver, Spy, Estate, Silver
 
---------- Data10: turn 12 ----------
Data10 - plays 2 Silver, 1 Gold
Data10 - buys Gold
Data10 - gains Gold
Data10 - draws Gold, Gold
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Silver, Gold, Silver
 
---------- Opponent: turn 12 ----------
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Gold
Opponent - discards Silver
Data10 - places Province on top of deck
Opponent - plays 3 Silver, 1 Gold
Opponent - buys Province
Opponent - gains Province
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Bureaucrat, Silver, Silver, Silver, Gold
 
---------- Data10: turn 13 ----------
Data10 - plays 3 Gold, 2 Silver
Data10 - buys Province
Data10 - gains Province
Data10 - draws Province, Gold, Province, Chapel
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Silver
 
---------- Opponent: turn 13 ----------
Opponent - plays Bureaucrat
Opponent - gains Silver
Data10 - reveals Province
Data10 - places Province on top of deck
Opponent - plays 3 Silver, 1 Gold
Opponent - buys Province
Opponent - gains Province
Opponent - draws Silver, Spy, Chapel, Spy, Province
 
---------- Data10: turn 14 ----------
Data10 - plays 1 Gold, 1 Silver
Data10 - buys Duchy
Data10 - gains Duchy
Data10 - draws Province, Gold, Gold, Silver, Province
 
---------- Opponent: turn 14 ----------
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Spy
Opponent - places Silver on top of deck
Data10 - discards Gold
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Silver
Opponent - places Mine on top of deck
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - discards Gold
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - draws Mine
Opponent - places Thief on top of deck
Data10 - places Province on top of deck
Opponent - plays Mine
Opponent - trashes Silver
Opponent - gains Gold
Opponent - plays 1 Silver, 1 Gold
Opponent - buys Bureaucrat
Opponent - gains Bureaucrat
Opponent - draws Thief, Estate, Silver, Spy, Silver
 
---------- Data10: turn 15 ----------
Data10 - plays 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Data10 - buys Province
Data10 - gains Province
Data10 - draws Province, Chapel, Duchy, Gold, Silver
 
---------- Opponent: turn 15 ----------
Opponent - plays Spy
Opponent - shuffles deck
Opponent - draws Spy
Opponent - places Bureaucrat on top of deck
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - places Gold on top of deck
Opponent - plays Thief
Data10 - reveals: Gold, Province
Data10 - trashes Gold
Data10 - discards Province
Opponent - gains Gold
Opponent - plays 2 Silver
Opponent - draws Bureaucrat, Silver, Gold, Province, Gold
 
---------- Data10: turn 16 ----------
Data10 - plays 1 Gold, 1 Silver
Data10 - buys Duchy
Data10 - gains Duchy
Data10 - draws Gold, Gold, Province, Silver, Province
 
---------- Opponent: turn 16 ----------
Opponent - plays Bureaucrat
Opponent - gains Silver
Data10 - reveals Province
Data10 - places Province on top of deck
Opponent - plays 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Opponent - buys Province
Opponent - gains Province
Opponent - draws Silver, Spy, Silver, Province, Silver
 
---------- Data10: turn 17 ----------
Data10 - plays 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Data10 - buys Province
Data10 - gains Province
Data10 - draws Province
Data10 - shuffles deck
Data10 - draws Silver, Province, Province, Gold
 
------------ Game Over ------------
Data10 - cards: 1 Chapel, 3 Gold, 2 Silver, 5 Province, 2 Duchy
Data10 - total victory points: 36
Data10 - turns: 17
 
Opponent - cards: 4 Spy, 2 Bureaucrat, 1 Thief, 1 Mine, 1 Chapel, 7 Silver, 3 Gold, 3 Province, 1 Estate
Opponent - total victory points: 19
Opponent - turns: 16
 
1st place: Data10
2nd place: Opponent
 

[drsteelhammer]

Hi,

there is the Help subforum here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=18.0

It's basically what you're asking about. Also, check out Game reports, there is nice feedback on specific kingdoms aswell.

There is also Kingdom of the week on reddit here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/search?q=title%3Akotw+author%3Aavocadro&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all

Lots of Kingdoms, most of them have good advice in there aswell. (Hint: mostly look for the pros commentating there, e.g. MicQsenoch, DanBrooks, AdamH)

[jsh357]

Well, this forum is basically what you're requesting (have a look in the Game Reports subforum instead). It's mostly with expansions, but sometimes people post base-only kingdoms.

As to your kingdom: Chapel-Big Money isn't a thing. It loses to Big Money with no Action cards at all, and it has to be worse than Bureaucrat or Mine Big Money (not that those are particularly strong). It should be noted that going heavy on Spy is generally worse than almost any other cohesive strategy, and Thief is also pretty weak.

Anyway, best strategy on this board seems to be Gardens rush with Woodcutter as support, and that's what I would play.

This is all decent advice, but one thing you should keep in mind is the reason your opponent won in this particular case. Thief is a really weak card in most kingdoms because it removes a weak card (a treasure) from your opponent's deck, which often helps them, so it's generally only good if they are DEPENDING on lots of treasure and the Thief is likely to HIT it. You increased those odds for your opponent by using Chapel to thin down, and your opponent increased the odds by using Spy to dig for your Gold. A big part of the game is reacting to your opponent effectively, which is what sealed your fate here.

This kingdom looks "weak" to me--there are not a lot of power cards at play. I would get Bureaucrats, probably 2-3 of them, and Silver, then start rushing Gardens and Duchy when Gardens runs out. Depending on what your opponent does, you will either need to abandon this plan and shoot for Provinces (buy Gold) or probably ignore the Province pile entirely.

[Awaclus]

I think the best you can do here is Bureaucrat/big money. Given that Gardens is present, you probably want a second Bureaucrat if it's convenient for you to get it, but it doesn't make a huge difference (small enough that the simulator thinks it's slightly worse, but I believe it's slightly better when you have a human making that decision).

Also if you're posting logs, you should make a Log Prettifier link, because those are super easier to read. You can do so by adding "http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?" before the original URL of the log (without the quotation marks). Like this: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160524/log.0.1464069435922.txt

[Data10]

I appreciate the information about the game logs forum.  I'll check them out.

This is all decent advice, but one thing you should keep in mind is the reason your opponent won in this particular case...

As listed in the game log above, I won the game 36 to 19.  I've actually won all of the few games in which I tried this strategy, which involved weaker boards like this.  I wanted to get some specific numbers, so I tested it in the simulator at http://rspeer.github.io/dominiate/play.html .  Note that the chapel strategy includes things like different trash rules for different numbers of coins in hand (discard leftovers beyond treasure buy unless early in game).  It had a 48.4% win rate against Big Money over 1000 games and 49.3% win rate against Big Money + Bureaucrat (no optimizations for what VCs to buy or when to buy).   I suspect if I optimized I could get above 50%, but Big Money + Bureaucrat would also improve with optimization.  A spy thief attack could be effective against it as you discussed.  However, I didn't try it as programming combos in the sim would be more complex.

[jsh357]

I appreciate the information about the game logs forum.  I'll check them out.

This is all decent advice, but one thing you should keep in mind is the reason your opponent won in this particular case...

As listed in the game log above, I won the game 36 to 19.  I've actually won all of the few games in which I tried this strategy, which usually involves weaker boards with chapel like this.  I wanted to get some specific numbers, so I tested it in the simulator at http://rspeer.github.io/dominiate/play.html .  Note that the chapel strategy includes things like different trash rules for different numbers of coins in hand (discard leftovers beyond treasure buy unless early in game).  It had a 48.4% win rate against Big Money over 1000 games and 49.3% win rate against Big Money + Bureaucrat (no optimizations for what VCs to buy or when to buy).   I suspect if I optimized I could get above 50%, but Big Money + Bureaucrat would also improve with optimization.  A spy thief attack could be effective against it as you discussed.  However, I didn't try it as programming combos in the sim would be more complex.

Sorry, I misread the post, assuming you probably lost since you were asking for help. The fact that the strategy didn't work in spite of Thief having everything going for it demonstrates about how bad Thief usually is, though. Pretty funny.

I would caution against relying on statistical datas and simulation if you are looking to improve at the game in general, though they matter vs Bots to some extent, and of course, you are primarily playing Base-Only games, where there are far fewer factors influencing the outcome of a game. (I understand the thrill of looking at stats, don't get me wrong. Numbers! Charts! Aaa!) For me, thinking about the games philosophically has improved my performance far more than memorizing Big Money tables or anything like that. Every kingdom is a unique case, etc.

[JThorne]

Actually, you shouldn't be looking for strategies for specific kingdoms. Instead, read the dominion strategy wiki articles on the basic deck archetypes (money, engine, rush, slog) and articles on specific cards, since those articles will tell you what archetypes they're good in and what other cards they synergize with. Reading the articles on the base set cards is a good start.

Nutshell:

Money: You buy 2 actions and money and VP and nothing else. Smithy+BM is the canonical example. Beats the unprepared beginner so fast they'll think Dominion is stupid. And sadly, sometimes it's the best thing available. Recognizing that is important.

Rush: In base, it's usually Gardens/Workshop or Gardens/Woodcutter. You can empty three piles (usually G/W/Estate) while your opponent is working on his fourth or fifth Province.

Slog: Beware of Witch (and later, other cursers) with no trashing or sifting. Some kingdoms are so miserable that you can barely get $5 a hand. So buy Duchies! Curses are a supply pile, so slogs usually run out on piles. Your seven Duchies will beat your opponent's two Provinces he kept desperately buying those Golds to afford.

Engine: Why We Play Dominion. They're the hardest to play, the most fun, and the only practical way to buy multiple Provinces per turn. Engines have lots of different cards and reward skill in knowing how to play them and in what order to buy them. Engines are played by the best players...and the worst ones. The most common beginner mistake is to buy tons of actions, creating basically an engine that spins its wheels. Even for experienced players, not every board is an engine board. Festival+Moat just isn't going to get there. Village+Smithy is great, but if there's no +buy, there may not be any point. An engine is basically this: Some source of action/draw combination that can get essentially your entire deck either in your hand or on the table. It may have some virtual coin, some +buy, maybe some sifting to skip the green cards, and maybe an attack as a nice punctuation mark at the end.

You need to be able to look at a board and say "This is an engine board" or "this is a money board" or "this is a slog." Experienced players looked at your sample kingdom and said Woodcutter/Gardens rush, meaning they would ignore most of the kingdom. That may seem trivial, but playing a rush requires careful timing. When you play Workshop, when do you gain another Workshop, a Gardens, or an Estate? What do you buy when you hit $3 or $4? Watch the piles carefully.

Once you add the rest of the expansions, of course, things get amazing. Card combos and strategies that open up all kinds of possibilities like game-ending megaturn engines that do nothing for the first dozen turns, then buy out all the Provinces at once.

Enjoy the journey. It's a great game with a tremendous variety. You'll be hooked in no time.

[Limetime]

If you really wanna get pro watch dominion videos especially those by wanderingwinder

[Seprix]

I would say good luck to anybody who catalogs all of the possible kingdoms, and then runs simulators on it to see the best strategy. Firstly, such a task would be immensely exhaustive. There are so many possible Kingdoms, up to the billions as of now because of Events and Landmarks. Secondly, simulations are imperfect, though they can be used as a general rough estimate most times.

Dominion is not like Chess, where there is 100% strategy that can be followed all of the time no matter what. Sometimes, there is luck involved, and even the better strategy can lose. That is part of the charm of Dominion. It is good to have a plan, but it is also good to be adaptable when your plan falls apart from under you. There is no such thing as the 'optimal' play sometimes, and you can always get better at Dominion.

Everybody makes mistakes in Dominion, even the very best players today. The important things are analyzing the board for what will work best, and there are so many factors that go into this that it would be incredibly hard to explain in a brief moment. The best way to learn of course, is to play the game. It is even better if you play with somebody else so you can talk with them afterwards.

I extend that invitation to you at any time I am available, if you want to play.

PPE: As Limetime says, another way to get good is watch Dominion videos.

WanderingWinder
AdamHorton
Seprix (me)
Mic Qsenoch

WanderingWinder is one of the best players in the world, and so is MicQsenoch. Adam Horton is not quite as good, but he is still up there, and can be more entertaining. As for myself, I am neither, but I try to post often, so I have that going for me.

[JThorne]

The problem with Chapel+BM, and the reason it's not a thing, is because it chokes on the green cards really quickly. Straight BM or BM+X is more resilient because it increases the money density through sheer volume; when you start greening, you keep greening for a while, because playing Smithy from a Smithy/Gold/Copper/Copper/Province hand has a good chance to hit $8. Gold/Silver/Province/Province/Province has to settle for a Duchy.

Where Chapel shines is in an engine where you can have a hand of Village/Smithy/Province/Province/Province and you're just fine. You're probably going to draw your whole deck anyway.

Dramatic deck thinning also works in cantrip decks. Imagine a deck with literally nothing but 8 Markets in it (all the starting Coppers and Estates gone.) It wouldn't start choking on green cards until you bought the fifth Province. Until then, even one Market guarantees $8 (you'll learn all about the joy of Peddler one day...)

You can also mitigate the greening problem with sifters, but base set only has Cellar, which is lame compared to the great ones like Warehouse and Embassy (drool.)

At least you're farther along than many beginners in recognizing the importance of trashing in early and often. Mostly early. I still have to reach across the table in IRL games and smack my playgroup members who keep buying Steward and playing hands of Steward/Estate/CopperX3 by using the Steward for $2 so that they can afford that $5-cost right away. I'm going hoarse yelling "That's now how you Steward!!"

[Limetime]

I would say good luck to anybody who catalogs all of the possible kingdoms, and then runs simulators on it to see the best strategy. Firstly, such a task would be immensely exhaustive. There are so many possible Kingdoms, up to the billions as of now because of Events and Landmarks. Secondly, simulations are imperfect, though they can be used as a general rough estimate most times.

Dominion is not like Chess, where there is 100% strategy that can be followed all of the time no matter what. Sometimes, there is luck involved, and even the better strategy can lose. That is part of the charm of Dominion. It is good to have a plan, but it is also good to be adaptable when your plan falls apart from under you. There is no such thing as the 'optimal' play sometimes, and you can always get better at Dominion.

Everybody makes mistakes in Dominion, even the very best players today. The important things are analyzing the board for what will work best, and there are so many factors that go into this that it would be incredibly hard to explain in a brief moment. The best way to learn of course, is to play the game. It is even better if you play with somebody else so you can talk with them afterwards.

I extend that invitation to you at any time I am available, if you want to play.

PPE: As Limetime says, another way to get good is watch Dominion videos.

WanderingWinder
AdamHorton
Seprix (me)
Mic Qsenoch

Also in theory you could brute force each Kingdom for optimal plays but no supercomputer will be able to do that in at least 30 years.

[Awaclus]

WanderingWinder is one of the best players in the world, and so is MicQsenoch. Adam Horton is not quite as good

That's a pretty misleading statement. He's only three ranks behind WW on the leaderboard now, but even if the current leaderboard doesn't accurately represent everyone's skill levels, it's not like the difference that they usually have is big enough that one of them needs to be singled out as "not quite as good".

[Limetime]

Mic officials is the best at dominion during this particular moment.
I am officially 55th on the full leader board right now(I am not that good)

[Seprix]

WanderingWinder is one of the best players in the world, and so is MicQsenoch. Adam Horton is not quite as good

That's a pretty misleading statement. He's only three ranks behind WW on the leaderboard now, but even if the current leaderboard doesn't accurately represent everyone's skill levels, it's not like the difference that they usually have is big enough that one of them needs to be singled out as "not quite as good".

He'd probably crush me like a bug (because I don't buy Raid), and he'll eventually eclipse WW (because he has apparently retired from Dominion), and he's a great player by far. I just think he'd lose to Mic and WW and Stef and SCSN more often than not, because those four are the Big Four top players to me. There are other fantastic players, but I have not seen them play, so I don't know who else is up there. But I'm digressing.

Man, you're right anyways. It's tiny differences, if there even is a difference at all. Plus, I'm not a good player, so how could I even judge good play?

[jsh357]

WanderingWinder is one of the best players in the world, and so is MicQsenoch. Adam Horton is not quite as good

That's a pretty misleading statement. He's only three ranks behind WW on the leaderboard now, but even if the current leaderboard doesn't accurately represent everyone's skill levels, it's not like the difference that they usually have is big enough that one of them needs to be singled out as "not quite as good".

He'd probably crush me like a bug (because I don't buy Raid), and he'll eventually eclipse WW (because he has apparently retired from Dominion), and he's a great player by far. I just think he'd lose to Mic and WW and Stef and SCSN more often than not, because those four are the Big Four top players to me. There are other fantastic players, but I have not seen them play, so I don't know who else is up there. But I'm digressing.

Man, you're right anyways. It's tiny differences, if there even is a difference at all. Plus, I'm not a good player, so how could I even judge good play?

I dunno, going strictly by results Dan Brooks seems like he should be above WW. The top 4 right now is pretty clearly Stef, Mic, Dan, and SCSN. Who knows, maybe that joker at #11 will catch up to them soon.

[Seprix]

WanderingWinder is one of the best players in the world, and so is MicQsenoch. Adam Horton is not quite as good

That's a pretty misleading statement. He's only three ranks behind WW on the leaderboard now, but even if the current leaderboard doesn't accurately represent everyone's skill levels, it's not like the difference that they usually have is big enough that one of them needs to be singled out as "not quite as good".

He'd probably crush me like a bug (because I don't buy Raid), and he'll eventually eclipse WW (because he has apparently retired from Dominion), and he's a great player by far. I just think he'd lose to Mic and WW and Stef and SCSN more often than not, because those four are the Big Four top players to me. There are other fantastic players, but I have not seen them play, so I don't know who else is up there. But I'm digressing.

Man, you're right anyways. It's tiny differences, if there even is a difference at all. Plus, I'm not a good player, so how could I even judge good play?

I dunno, going strictly by results Dan Brooks seems like he should be above WW. The top 4 right now is pretty clearly Stef, Mic, Dan, and SCSN. Who knows, maybe that joker at #11 will catch up to them soon.

I'm not going by Goko Leaderboards. I've never played Dan or seen him play, so I cannot say personally.

[jsh357]

WanderingWinder is one of the best players in the world, and so is MicQsenoch. Adam Horton is not quite as good

That's a pretty misleading statement. He's only three ranks behind WW on the leaderboard now, but even if the current leaderboard doesn't accurately represent everyone's skill levels, it's not like the difference that they usually have is big enough that one of them needs to be singled out as "not quite as good".

He'd probably crush me like a bug (because I don't buy Raid), and he'll eventually eclipse WW (because he has apparently retired from Dominion), and he's a great player by far. I just think he'd lose to Mic and WW and Stef and SCSN more often than not, because those four are the Big Four top players to me. There are other fantastic players, but I have not seen them play, so I don't know who else is up there. But I'm digressing.

Man, you're right anyways. It's tiny differences, if there even is a difference at all. Plus, I'm not a good player, so how could I even judge good play?

I dunno, going strictly by results Dan Brooks seems like he should be above WW. The top 4 right now is pretty clearly Stef, Mic, Dan, and SCSN. Who knows, maybe that joker at #11 will catch up to them soon.

I'm not going by Goko Leaderboards. I've never played Dan or seen him play, so I cannot say personally.

I'm not going by "Goko" leaderboards either. I'm using the isotropish ranking, where Dan's been consistently in the top 5 for quite some time now. Clearly the Seprix rankings are more meaningful, but I don't have access to that data.
http://gokosalvager.com/leaderboard/

If you were only taking tournament/league results into account, I'm not sure WW would make it then either, though he has won his share of tournaments in the past.

Edit: Also, I shouldn't be counting Mercury444F out. He's tied with Stef right now, and is quite a formidable player.

[Seprix]

[Dingan]

There are so many possible Kingdoms, up to the billions as of now because of Events and Landmarks.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13647.0
There are WAY more than billions.  Only including up to Guilds, a lower bound for the number of kingdoms is ~ 3 x 10 ^ 16, which is 30 million billions.  Things like Young Witch, Black Market, Shelters, and Colony/Platinum complicate things.  And as you said, Events and Landmarks increase it more.

[Awaclus]

There are so many possible Kingdoms, up to the billions as of now because of Events and Landmarks.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13647.0
There are WAY more than billions.  Only including up to Guilds, a lower bound for the number of kingdoms is ~ 3 x 10 ^ 16, which is 30 million billions.  Things like Young Witch, Black Market, Shelters, and Colony/Platinum complicate things.  And as you said, Events and Landmarks increase it more.

30 million billions is still billions. A lot of them, even.

[Dingan]

There are so many possible Kingdoms, up to the billions as of now because of Events and Landmarks.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13647.0
There are WAY more than billions.  Only including up to Guilds, a lower bound for the number of kingdoms is ~ 3 x 10 ^ 16, which is 30 million billions.  Things like Young Witch, Black Market, Shelters, and Colony/Platinum complicate things.  And as you said, Events and Landmarks increase it more.

30 million billions is still billions. A lot of them, even.

But is it up to the billions?

[funkdoc]

to satisfy the late carl sagan, i will note that this does at least constitute "billions and billions"

[dedicateddan]

Calling anyone in the top 10 anything other than "very good" is going to be misleading.

It's worth noting that WW plays a very unique money style, plays quickly, and plays very well. Mic, Stef, SCSN, and I play the heavy engine style that is seen more in tournament play.

Also, I am currently 4-0 against Seprix #shotsfired :-)

[Titandrake]

Is WW's style still money-centric? I thought that was a legacy thing, and he started doing engine play after Dark Ages made engines a lot better.

[Limetime]

Is WW's style still money-centric? I thought that was a legacy thing, and he started doing engine play after Dark Ages made engines a lot better.

He likes money more than the others but he does engines aswell.