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Author Topic: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks  (Read 84791 times)

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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #125 on: May 13, 2016, 03:54:06 am »
+1

I actually dislike Tomb, for the simple reason that trashing is often already a strong move, you don't need much extra incentive for it.

But now that I think about it, it is pretty funny with cards like Swindler, Thief/Brigand, Knights, etc.
Your Copper gets Swindled into a Curse, but you gain a free VP, hurray!

It does make Thief even worse.

You could also look at it differently: The landmark doesn't matter when you and your opponent open Chapel, but you'll have a lot more fun with your trade route/loan opening against a big money strategy that would have otherwise easily beat you. I think this is my favourite landmark of those five because it makes weak engines better.

For the same reason, I'm kind of sad about Battlefield. With no Alt-VP on the board, the big money player will get eight free VP or so, so it most likely ends in more simple mirrors.

I have no idea how wolf den will play out, I guess you'll probably get around it some way. The same applies to Tomb, I'm looking forward to getting more potions, though :)



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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2016, 04:02:42 am »
+1

I don't know if anyone has said this, but:

Combo: Miser and Fountain.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2016, 04:32:27 am »
+1

I don't know if anyone has said this, but:

Combo: Miser and Fountain.
This has been mentioned and is obvious, because the Fountain is like the Trevi Fountain, filled with Coppers.

Battlefield makes Duchy/Duke even more insane.
There's basically no way a simple Province player can beat it with Battlefield out.

And I wonder if I'll ever open Great Hall/Great Hall...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 04:43:38 am by Davio »
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ben_king

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #128 on: May 13, 2016, 08:39:42 am »
0

What do you guys think some of the other Landmarks will be?
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Davio

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #129 on: May 13, 2016, 08:45:11 am »
+6

I have this weird suspicion they will provide VP somehow.
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DoomYoshi

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #130 on: May 13, 2016, 08:55:21 am »
0

I'm guessing there will be one for large and small deck sizes.
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faust

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #131 on: May 13, 2016, 09:21:23 am »
+1

I'm guessing there will be one for large and small deck sizes.

Gardens seems to cover large deck sizes, but one for small decks sounds good.

Maybe we even get some Curse interaction; like "+X VP if you have more Curses than any other player" could lead to interesting dynamics.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #132 on: May 13, 2016, 09:37:58 am »
+2

There might be ones for playing X Actions and/or Treasures in a single turn.
The Village idiot landmark! It's a Copper statue of an idiot.


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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #133 on: May 13, 2016, 09:43:41 am »
0

I have this weird suspicion they will provide VP somehow.
Necessarily?

There could be all sorts of other stuff, too: "If you do not gain a card on your turn, gain a Curse", or "Every turn, gain a copy of a card costing up to $4 you played that turn.", or...

(I'm not saying those specific ones are good ideas, just noting the spaces that are left for other kinds of Landmark.)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #134 on: May 13, 2016, 09:44:32 am »
+1

Is a Province worth 6 VP, or does it produce 6 VP when scoring?
And what happens when you use Watchtower to put Nomad Camp on your deck?

And why do fools fall in love?

There may be a way to turn it into a more legitimate question... if you were to make a recommendation to Shuffle iT as to how a point counter option should be added to Dominion Online 2017, would you recommend that the point counter show an extra 15 points when Fountain is in the game and a player gets a 10th Copper?
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2016, 09:47:17 am »
+1

The Village idiot landmark!
Village Idiot: At the start of your Buy phase, discard one Treasure per unused Action you have (Action, not Action card).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2016, 09:49:08 am »
+1

Is a Province worth 6 VP, or does it produce 6 VP when scoring?
And what happens when you use Watchtower to put Nomad Camp on your deck?

And why do fools fall in love?

I've experienced it matters when you have, for some reason, to quit mid-game and someone decides to count points anyway. Now I can respond there are no points to be counted unless the game is ended by prov/col/3-piles.

But a person can count the points listed on their Province no matter what you decide with that. And the meaning of those points in terms of "who won" is equally meaningless no matter if you decide Provinces are worth points already or only score at the end. The only difference is whether you get to say the meaningless sentence "My deck contained more points when the game ended". You still cannot follow that with "therefore I won". I mean, if I open Estate, Estate, and you start to build a huge Highway/Grand Market/King's Court/Witch type thing, can I just quit the game and then say "well my deck contained more points than yours, so I guess I win". Of course not. Unless the game goes until a full ending, there is no winner.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #137 on: May 13, 2016, 09:52:09 am »
+1

What do you guys think some of the other Landmarks will be?

Such discussion would be much better in the variants forum.
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mith

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #138 on: May 13, 2016, 12:48:50 pm »
0

We're going to be playing with a lot of landmarks/events on average after Empires.

Using the recommendation of a 2 event/landmark limit, the negative binomial approximation (how can Excel not have a built in negative hypergeometric distribution!), and assuming 47 total events/landmarks and 262 total kingdom cards (I'm not sure we know how many kingdom cards and events will be in Empires):

Chance of 0 events/landmarks: 19.2%
Chance of 1 events/landmarks: 29.2%
Chance of 2 events/landmarks: 51.6%

Now that we know we have 13 new Events, and based on the previous estimate of 24 new Kingdom cards (likely 9 Split and 1 Victory, to account for the art and total card count), we'll have 260 Kingdom, 34 Events, and 21 Landmarks. Without limiting to 2, I get:

Chance of 0 Events/Landmarks: 14.230%
Chance of 1 Events/Landmarks: 25.661%
Chance of 2 Events/Landmarks: 25.070%
Chance of 3 Events/Landmarks: 17.541%
Chance of 4 Events/Landmarks: 9.816%
Chance of 5 Events/Landmarks: 4.657%
Chance of 6 Events/Landmarks: 1.940%
Chance of 7 Events/Landmarks: 0.727%
Chance of 8 Events/Landmarks: 0.249%
Chance of 9 Events/Landmarks: 0.079%
Chance of 10 Events/Landmarks: 0.023%
Chance of 11 Events/Landmarks: 0.006%
Chance of 12 Events/Landmarks: 0.002%

Chance of 2+ Events/Landmarks: 60.109%
Chance of 4+ Events/Landmarks: 17.499%

A limit of 4 total and picking 0-4 as 20% each is actually not a bad approximation, if you don't feel like shuffling 315 cards...
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #139 on: May 13, 2016, 01:00:18 pm »
+6

There may be a way to turn it into a more legitimate question... if you were to make a recommendation to Shuffle iT as to how a point counter option should be added to Dominion Online 2017, would you recommend that the point counter show an extra 15 points when Fountain is in the game and a player gets a 10th Copper?
Well they're stand-out examples of the kind of serious player who demands a point counter. What do they want out of it? Man I'm not the one the point counter is for.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2016, 01:16:53 pm »
+2

Unless the game goes until a full ending, there is no winner.

And no loser!  Therefore, resign when you are behind. ;)
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Minotaur

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #141 on: May 13, 2016, 01:18:07 pm »
0

Wolf Den is horrible with Knights.  Travelers are also a sore spot.  And ruins are going to be a real challenge.

It's an accounting nightmare generally.  With Masquerade, things could get pretty weird.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #142 on: May 13, 2016, 01:30:07 pm »
+1

Unless the game goes until a full ending, there is no winner.

And no loser!  Therefore, resign when you are behind. ;)

Resigning isn't in the rules I suppose, but it is certainly different than stopping because you ran out of time or something. I mean, the definition of resigning is "end a game by conceding defeat"

eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #143 on: May 13, 2016, 01:49:26 pm »
+1

Unless the game goes until a full ending, there is no winner.

And no loser!  Therefore, resign when you are behind. ;)

Resigning isn't in the rules I suppose, but it is certainly different than stopping because you ran out of time or something. I mean, the definition of resigning is "end a game by conceding defeat"

You're right.  Slow play it is.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #144 on: May 13, 2016, 01:50:33 pm »
+1

Unless the game goes until a full ending, there is no winner.

And no loser!  Therefore, resign when you are behind. ;)

Resigning isn't in the rules I suppose, but it is certainly different than stopping because you ran out of time or something. I mean, the definition of resigning is "end a game by conceding defeat"

You're right.  Slow play it is.

Fortunately, players who chose that option don't get invited back to game night. ;)

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2016, 01:56:55 pm »
0

My only concern with Landmarks is that I hope they don't reward bad play and hinder good play.  That is, I hope they don't act as a 'handicap'.  I've never liked such mechanics in strategy games.  Of course, they will change the definition of 'good play' and 'bad play'.  But I just hope it's not like, oh, you have the most curses? Here's some free VP for you then.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #146 on: May 13, 2016, 01:58:44 pm »
+1

My only concern with Landmarks is that I hope they don't reward bad play and hinder good play.  That is, I hope they don't act as a 'handicap'.  I've never liked such mechanics in strategy games.  Of course, they will change the definition of 'good play' and 'bad play'.  But I just hope it's not like, oh, you have the most curses? Here's some free VP for you then.

I think they might make it more difficult to discern what is good play and bad play.  Well, as you say I guess.  But they make things more complicated and once and a while someone will make errors and get lucky and still win.  But I'm guessing that will be offset by the skill level it takes to effectively use them, once people learn to use them.

If that makes any sense.
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2016, 02:00:45 pm »
+4

As for not using a randomizer app, (I'm Jewish), on saturday we don't use electronics (i.e phones)

Could you just use a phone app to make a big list of random kingdoms on Friday afternoon? Just throwing out ideas.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2016, 01:14:36 am »
+6

Not just more variations on Events, not just small objectives: fundamentally changing the way any given Kingdom might be approached. Beautiful.

Although I do find it hilarious that Doctors are going to be contributing so much to your VP through Tomb.
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #149 on: May 14, 2016, 09:52:56 am »
+1

As for not using a randomizer app, (I'm Jewish), on saturday we don't use electronics (i.e phones)
Sounds like the advent of smartphone-assisted boardgames has created a niche for a new kind of Shabbos goy. By my understanding, there's no objection to a goy working a Dominion randomizer, the One Night Ultimate Werewolf announcer, etc. and Jews enjoying the benefit of that, provided the goy is also playing the game.

A goy eager to play Dominion on the Sabbath with Jewish friends? Unheard of! (-8

(Um. And now I should probably make clear that, though I may have just read this article on the Sabbath, that was primarily out of my own curiosity rather than doing work on your behalf!)
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