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[Dingan]

Apologies if these have been asked before..

In this situation:
- 2 player game
- I went first
- My opponent played a Lighthouse on turn x
- I play a duration attack, e.g. Swamp Hag, on turn x+1
does my opponent get affected by my Swamp Hag on their x+1 turn?  Cus Lighthouse specifically says "when another player plays an Attack card...", which doesn't apply on their x+1 turn -- because I played it earlier, not now.  Sure, it prevented the Swamp Hag from doing anything to them on my turn x (when I played it), but that isn't the case anymore.

The answer to this affects Secret Chamber.. If the Lighthouse blocks the Swamp Hag on my opponent's x+1, does that also mean they get to reveal their Secret Chamber a second time?  That would be odd to reveal it the second time, as it's your own turn.  It would kind of be like playing an action at the start of your turn that is neither a reserve nor does it actually cost an action.. weird.  Would it affect Conspirator?  Could you call Coin of the Realm on it?  Could you do it after resolving your Caravans, or would you have to do it first?

Same goes for Champion as with Lighthouse.

Also, say my opponent had instead revealed a Moat during my turn x.  Does that make them not affected by my Swamp Hag on their turn x+1?  Cus that is still technically the same attack as was played earlier -- that attack is still happening.  If this were the case, I guess you would have to remember whether you revealed the Moat or not (unlikely, but could be a pain IRL, especially with >2 players).

-----

Oh, and one more unrelated thing while I have ya.. Can I put tokens on empty supply piles?  So like, Pathfinding says "Move your +1 Card token to any Action Supply pile...".  But technically when there are no more cards in a pile, it's not a pile anymore -- it's just a spot on my table that used to contain a pile of cards.

[wachsmuth]

Re: Supply piles.

Yes. Teacher, Pathfinding, Lost Arts, Training, Ferry, Plan can all put tokens on empty piles. The only exception is Seaway, which must gain a card from the pile you put it on.

[werothegreat]

Moat and Lighthouse both say "when another player plays an Attack card".

Swamp Hag and Haunted Woods both say "until your next turn."

If you reveal a Moat you have in hand, or have a Lighthouse in play, when another player plays Swamp Hag or Haunted Woods, you are not affected by what it does.  What does it do?  Until *their* next turn, your turns are worse.  Whether you take extra turns from Outpost or Mission or Possession or whatever.

[eHalcyon]

The official FAQ says this:

If you want to use a Reaction card like MoatMoat.jpg against Swamp Hag, you have to use it right when Swamp Hag is played.

I play Swamp Hag, you reveal Moat, my Swamp Hag doesn't affect you on your next turn.  You don't get to reveal Moat later during your turn to stop it from affecting you.  You had to reveal it right when Swamp Hag was played.

It should work the same way for Lighthouse and Champion.  Lighthouse says:

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn’t affect you.

Champion says the same thing, but with "For the rest of the game" instead of "While this is in play".  Therefore, if you played Champion before I played Swamp Hag, or if you have Lighthouse in play when I play Swamp Hag, you will be unaffected by that Swamp Hag.  But neither Lighthouse nor Champion apply retroactively, since they work "when another player plays an Attack card".  If you play your Lighthouse/Champion on the turn after I played my Swamp Hag, well, that Swamp Hag was already played before and has already affected you.

You did look at that wording, but you seem to be applying it incorrectly.  The "when another player plays an Attack card" bit is like when the effect is triggered, not when the protection works.  If it was blocked (on your turn x+1 in your example), then it's blocked for good.  They are unaffected by the attack card, including the "until your next turn" bit.

[Dingan]

You did look at that wording, but you seem to be applying it incorrectly.  The "when another player plays an Attack card" bit is like when the effect is triggered, not when the protection works.  If it was blocked (on your turn x+1 in your example), then it's blocked for good.  They are unaffected by the attack card, including the "until your next turn" bit.

I'll go with this, if that's the rule.  But I still think there's definitely room for different (incorrect) interpretation.  I would think "When another player plays an Attack..." refers to the instant in time when it was played.  When I do something, then stop doing that something, I'm not still doing that something anymore.  If someone said to me, "While you're running, you must wear running shoes", that doesn't say anything about what to wear when I'm not running.

[eHalcyon]

You did look at that wording, but you seem to be applying it incorrectly.  The "when another player plays an Attack card" bit is like when the effect is triggered, not when the protection works.  If it was blocked (on your turn x+1 in your example), then it's blocked for good.  They are unaffected by the attack card, including the "until your next turn" bit.

I'll go with this, if that's the rule.  But I still think there's definitely room for different (incorrect) interpretation.  I would think "When another player plays an Attack..." refers to the instant in time when it was played.  When I do something, then stop doing that something, I'm not still doing that something anymore.  If someone said to me, "While you're running, you must wear running shoes", that doesn't say anything about what to wear when I'm not running.

Right, it's the instant in time.  Specifically, it's the instant the Attack card is played that you check those things.  So, when I play Swamp Hag, did you have a Lighthouse in play (or had you previously played Champion)?  If so, you are unaffected.  If not, you are affected.  If you play Lighthouse/Champion later on your turn, it doesn't retroactively protect you because the instant you would have checked has already passed.  The Lighthouse you are playing will protect you when more attacks are played (while the Lighthouse is in play), but it doesn't protect you from attacks previously played, even if the effect of that Attack is a duration effect that is currently hurting you.

[Dingan]

You did look at that wording, but you seem to be applying it incorrectly.  The "when another player plays an Attack card" bit is like when the effect is triggered, not when the protection works.  If it was blocked (on your turn x+1 in your example), then it's blocked for good.  They are unaffected by the attack card, including the "until your next turn" bit.

I'll go with this, if that's the rule.  But I still think there's definitely room for different (incorrect) interpretation.  I would think "When another player plays an Attack..." refers to the instant in time when it was played.  When I do something, then stop doing that something, I'm not still doing that something anymore.  If someone said to me, "While you're running, you must wear running shoes", that doesn't say anything about what to wear when I'm not running.

Right, it's the instant in time.  Specifically, it's the instant the Attack card is played that you check those things.  So, when I play Swamp Hag, did you have a Lighthouse in play (or had you previously played Champion)?  If so, you are unaffected.  If not, you are affected.  If you play Lighthouse/Champion later on your turn, it doesn't retroactively protect you because the instant you would have checked has already passed.  The Lighthouse you are playing will protect you when more attacks are played (while the Lighthouse is in play), but it doesn't protect you from attacks previously played, even if the effect of that Attack is a duration effect that is currently hurting you.

Perhaps we're beating around the bush here, but just to clarify what I'm saying...

I play a Swamp Hag on my turn x+1, at time t1.  Then at some later time, t2, you buy something during your x+1 turn.  (Then even later yet, on my x+2 turn, at time t3, I get the +$3 bonus -- but lets ignore that for now.)  I am saying one could interpret "When another player plays an attack, ..." as "At time t1, ...".  So at time t1, they're not affected.  But it doesn't say anything about t2.

I'm not saying that should be the rule.  I'm saying that is a possible interpretation of the text (which is wrong, because it's apparently not the rule).  So maybe we're agreeing?

[eHalcyon]

Maybe?  I think I see what you are saying and I don't think that's the logical interpretation of the wording, but I'm finding it difficult to explain.

[Dominionaer]

I am saying one could interpret "When another player plays an attack, ..." as "At time t1, ...".  So at time t1, they're not affected. 

You are right, one can. But in there is also the fault: You yave to read/cite the whole sentence: "by that Attack." So it is not that moment counting, but that card. It does not matter when any action, which can be interpreted as attack, gets resolved. Note the difference: "attack" <-> "Attack". An attack (lower case) is not defined in Dominion. An Attack (upper case) is short for "Attack card" and defines any card, which has (one) type "Attack".

[Joseph2302]

So if a player has a Haunted Woods in play, and you play a Champion, you are still affected by the attack bit (put cards back on deck), right? As the Champion only protects from attacks when they are played.

[Dominionaer]

Right!

[Jeebus]

I am saying one could interpret "When another player plays an attack, ..." as "At time t1, ...".  So at time t1, they're not affected. 

You are right, one can. But in there is also the fault: You yave to read/cite the whole sentence: "by that Attack." So it is not that moment counting, but that card. It does not matter when any action, which can be interpreted as attack, gets resolved. Note the difference: "attack" <-> "Attack". An attack (lower case) is not defined in Dominion. An Attack (upper case) is short for "Attack card" and defines any card, which has (one) type "Attack".

I think the issue is rather that "when" can be interpreted in the following two ways:

When another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you:
1) At the moment that this happens, the mentioned card doesn't affect you.
2) When this happens, the mentioned card doesn't ever affect you.

[GendoIkari]

I am saying one could interpret "When another player plays an attack, ..." as "At time t1, ...".  So at time t1, they're not affected. 

You are right, one can. But in there is also the fault: You yave to read/cite the whole sentence: "by that Attack." So it is not that moment counting, but that card. It does not matter when any action, which can be interpreted as attack, gets resolved. Note the difference: "attack" <-> "Attack". An attack (lower case) is not defined in Dominion. An Attack (upper case) is short for "Attack card" and defines any card, which has (one) type "Attack".

I think the issue is rather that "when" can be interpreted in the following two ways:

When another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you:
1) At the moment that this happens, the mentioned card doesn't affect you.
2) When this happens, the mentioned card doesn't ever affect you.

I don't see how it can be option 1, because then the attacker could just argue that the Militia can indeed affect you after you reveal Moat, because the moment that you were protected was only the moment that Militia was first played, and it wore off before Militia instructed people to discard. The only difference between Militia and Haunted Woods is that the delay between the card being played and the card affecting opponents is longer.

[Jeebus]

I don't see how it can be option 1, because then the attacker could just argue that the Militia can indeed affect you after you reveal Moat, because the moment that you were protected was only the moment that Militia was first played, and it wore off before Militia instructed people to discard. The only difference between Militia and Haunted Woods is that the delay between the card being played and the card affecting opponents is longer.

I know, I thought about that too. What I was explaining was how the confusion could arise, because of the two different meanings that can exist in the English language, which was because of the meaning of "when", not whatever Dominionaer wrote. Whatever one knows or doesn't know about exact timing rules in Dominion is another matter.

What is negated (for you) is exactly the effect of the play ability of the Attack being played when you have Lighthouse in play - but that play ability sets up an ability that happens later. With Lighthouse in play that later ability is set up to not affect you.

[chipperMDW]

This is all a matter of when the words "any other player" on Swamp Hag get evaluated.  If a player's Lighthouse is in play at the time those words are evaluated, then he's not one of the players referenced by that phrase.

Pretend that, whenever you set up a future effect, you take out a notecard and write out exactly what it does.  Then you keep the notecard around, following the instructions written on it as long as the effect lasts.

The incorrect way to handle Swamp Hag would be to simply write the words "when any other player buys a card, he gains a Curse" on the notecard, then, afterwards, whenever a player buys a card, check to see whether to follow those instructions by evaluating "any other player" and checking whether that player's Lighthouse is around at that point.

The correct way to handle Swamp Hag (i.e. the way that matches with the rulings) would be to first evaluate "any other player" immediately when the card is played, and then, based on that evaluation, write words like "when Alice or Bob [but not Carol because she had a Lighthouse when I played Swamp Hag] buys a card, they gain a Curse" on the notecard.  Then, when Carol buys a card, she's still not on the list of players you wrote down on the notecard.  You don't change the list just because her Lighthouse went away.


(It's comparable to the difference in MTG between an enchantment that says "Creatures you control get +1/+1" and a spell that says "Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn."  The former, (because it's generated by a static ability) continuously evaluates "creatures you control," so any new creatures you play get the bonus, and creatures that you stop controlling stop having the bonus.  The latter determines the set of "creatures you control" at the moment it is played and applies the effect to those specific creatures; if you play new creatures, they don't get the bonus, and creatures that were affected and stop being controlled by you nonetheless keep the bonus.)

[mameluke]

You'll notice that in the MF implementation, you are essentially handed a Swamp Hag or Haunted Woods 'token' to put over your avatar to show that you will be affected when the appropriate time comes. If you have a Moat or have Lighthouse in play when the 'tokens are handed out', so to speak, you don't get a token and aren't affected.