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[Aleimon Thimble]

Do you ever deviate from the official Dominion rules? Where and for what reason do you do that?

As for me:

- When there is a Looter, the Ruins deck always contains equal amounts of each Ruin. Just seems way more logical that way.
- In order to minimize confusion, I sometimes leave out the Curse pile if there are no cards referencing Curse and no other good reason to get them (Ambassador, Swindler, Goons+Watchtower, Fairgrounds), especially with newer players.
- I put Durations and other cards that stay in play (Prince) on the Tavern mat, to make it easier to track them.

[Donald X.]

- In order to minimize confusion, I sometimes leave out the Curse pile if there are no cards referencing Curse and no other good reason to get them (Ambassador, Swindler, Goons+Watchtower, Fairgrounds), especially with newer players.

That is not a deviation from the rules.

Edit: oic, you mean, you "leave out" the Curses meaning you don't have them out. I was thinking, "leave them out on the table."

[Mavy2k]

With Tournament you have to discard the province instead of just revealing it. We play mostly 4p games and the players that get to province first are already in a better spot and having to just reveal the province usually means that the last player to get a province has no chance to get back in the game.
I think this originated from a translation error on our version and we stuck to it, because all players liked this alot more.

[Harley_Beckett]

With Tournament you have to discard the province instead of just revealing it. We play mostly 4p games and the players that get to province first are already in a better spot and having to just reveal the province usually means that the last player to get a province has no chance to get back in the game.
I think this originated from a translation error on our version and we stuck to it, because all players liked this alot more.

Sounds to me like you're playing the rules as written.  You're supposed to discard the Province when you play Tournament, but you don't have to discard it if you are revealing it on another player's turn in order to 'block' them.

However there is nothing to stop you re-drawing the Province and using it again later the same turn.

Off-topic, I think a four-player Tournament game sounds like bad times for someone no matter what...

[Awaclus]

Off-topic, I think a four-player Tournament game sounds like bad times for someeveryone no matter what...

FTFY

[Mavy2k]

With Tournament you have to discard the province instead of just revealing it. We play mostly 4p games and the players that get to province first are already in a better spot and having to just reveal the province usually means that the last player to get a province has no chance to get back in the game.
I think this originated from a translation error on our version and we stuck to it, because all players liked this alot more.

Sounds to me like you're playing the rules as written.  You're supposed to discard the Province when you play Tournament, but you don't have to discard it if you are revealing it on another player's turn in order to 'block' them.

However there is nothing to stop you re-drawing the Province and using it again later the same turn.

Off-topic, I think a four-player Tournament game sounds like bad times for someone no matter what...

Sorry, I meant the part about revealing it to the other player that plays Tournament. We discard it instead.

[Accatitippi]

We changed a number of cards, some on the spot ("no attack for Scrying pool, ok?"), some pretty much always (Adventurer's +Action).
The only general change to the rules is that we play full random with Alchemy, but the 3+ Potion cost cards thing is just a recommendation anyway. (and Donald pretty much took it back)

[theJester]

With 3 or 4 player games, when we randomly shuffle randomizer deck to decide which cards we'll play our kingdom with, I usually draw again in case I drew Torturer (which turns 3+P game into a torture) and Spy (which new players tend to use a lot, making game go forever).

[AdrianHealey]

- We draw 5/6 kingdom cards random, and than look for the last 5/4 that have synergies or choose 10 random kingdom cards and than switch out if some look like they'll be obvious duds.
- We don't play with torturer if a pin is reasonable and likely. (So Moat, lighthouse or strong trashing needs to be in the kingdom, if torturer is there.)
- We also usually have 1-3 fan made cards. Sometimes even more.

[Drab Emordnilap]

We play partnership with four players.

Also, Torturer is a fair enough guy; he only pins you if you consent. He's not a super Militia; he's a Witch with an opt-out clause.

[J Reggie]

Usually I play by the rules as written. One time I was playing a 4p game, and two of the players really didn't know what they were doing and both opened with Ferry on Stonemason and proceeded to empty the Duplicate pile by turn 4 or something crazy like that. The other player and I were more serious about the game and thought the kingdom was interesting, so we made a house rule for that game that Duplicate wouldn't count for a 3-pile.

[Jeebus]

When playing with experienced players (or in tournaments), we always choose our two opening buys. The players don't have to stack their decks before starting, we just pick a card costing up to $5, and then pick another card on turn 2, for a total of $7. So after the first player buys a card, the second player is free to react however s/he wishes, etc. This somewhat alleviates first player advantage, and also makes for a less luck-prone, more strategic opening.

Before Hinterlands, Mint was the only special case: If you pick Mint as an opening buy, of course you fish out 5 Coppers and trash them. After Hinterlands, we have some more special cases, but it still works. Like, if someone opens Noble Brigand on turn 1 (rare), some opponents might have to choose their opening hand, then all opponents shuffle the remaining five cards.

[werothegreat]

When playing with experienced players (or in tournaments), we always choose our two opening buys. The players don't have to stack their decks before starting, we just pick a card costing up to $5, and then pick another card on turn 2, for a total of $7. So after the first player buys a card, the second player is free to react however s/he wishes, etc. This somewhat alleviates first player advantage, and also makes for a less luck-prone, more strategic opening.

Before Hinterlands, Mint was the only special case: If you pick Mint as an opening buy, of course you fish out 5 Coppers and trash them. After Hinterlands, we have some more special cases, but it still works. Like, if someone opens Noble Brigand on turn 1 (rare), some opponents might have to choose their opening hand, then all opponents shuffle the remaining five cards.

Well, now there's also Lost City, Baker, Borrow, Alms, Save, Scouting Party, Travelling Fair, Nomad Camp...

[AdrianHealey]

The way we did it in my tournament was that people are allowed to stack their 10 first cards anyway they want.

[Chris is me]

I have starting decks set aside for four players - so technically we are playing with a smaller Copper pile than we should be when we play a two player game. I rationalize this by telling myself I'll fish out the Coppers from starter decks if we ever pile it out. We have yet to do that.

I often roll a D12 instead of shuffling the starter deck. 2 or 5 means your first hand is a $2 or a $5 - otherwise even numbers mean you open $4 and odd means you open $3. This is an accurate simulation of a truly random shuffle.

I'll swipe out problematic cards or reshuffle Kingdoms entirely if they look like they won't lead to a game the particular players involved would enjoy.

If you play Rabble, you have to announce the card as "RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" South Park style or else the attack portion doesn't count.

Can't think of too many others.

[GendoIkari]

I used to play "take any 2 cards you want adding up to $7" instead of doing a normal shuffle and draw for the first 2 turns. Of course, this rule basically becomes impossible when you add in things like Nomad Camp, Lost City, Baker, etc.

[ThetaSigma12]

If we play with multiple cards requiring a mat (Except Native Village), then we just use one mat for it all. We don't bother getting out the mats at all for VP tokens.

[GendoIkari]

If we play with multiple cards requiring a mat (Except Native Village), then we just use one mat for it all. We don't bother getting out the mats at all for VP tokens.

I'm not sure if that counts as a house rule. The physical location of things "on a mat" doesn't affect rules.

[ThetaSigma12]

If we play with multiple cards requiring a mat (Except Native Village), then we just use one mat for it all. We don't bother getting out the mats at all for VP tokens.

I'm not sure if that counts as a house rule. The physical location of things "on a mat" doesn't affect rules.

True, but Islanding a card to the tavern mat is doing something different from what the card says, so it's counts as a house rule in my book at least.

[LastFootnote]

If we play with multiple cards requiring a mat (Except Native Village), then we just use one mat for it all. We don't bother getting out the mats at all for VP tokens.

I'm not sure if that counts as a house rule. The physical location of things "on a mat" doesn't affect rules.

True, but Islanding a card to the tavern mat is doing something different from what the card says, so it's counts as a house rule in my book at least.

Wait, so Islanded Distant Lands give you 4 VP at the end of the game?

[ThetaSigma12]

If we play with multiple cards requiring a mat (Except Native Village), then we just use one mat for it all. We don't bother getting out the mats at all for VP tokens.

I'm not sure if that counts as a house rule. The physical location of things "on a mat" doesn't affect rules.

True, but Islanding a card to the tavern mat is doing something different from what the card says, so it's counts as a house rule in my book at least.

Wait, so Islanded Distant Lands give you 4 VP at the end of the game?

Technically yes, but on the off chance both of those show up together I'll make sure to grab the Island Mats.

[clb]

I didn't realize that anyone used the mats for anything, ever. We used the Tavern mats once in our first game, since they were new, but other than that, I don't recall using a mat in any of the games - their primary purpose is to keep the incomplete row of cards in my box from falling down.

[Jeebus]

I didn't realize that anyone used the mats for anything, ever. We used the Tavern mats once in our first game, since they were new, but other than that, I don't recall using a mat in any of the games - their primary purpose is to keep the incomplete row of cards in my box from falling down.

With limited table space, I can't imagine playing with Island without the mat. Even with the mat people were mixing up their discard pile and Islanded cards.

[Jeebus]

When playing with experienced players (or in tournaments), we always choose our two opening buys. The players don't have to stack their decks before starting, we just pick a card costing up to $5, and then pick another card on turn 2, for a total of $7. So after the first player buys a card, the second player is free to react however s/he wishes, etc. This somewhat alleviates first player advantage, and also makes for a less luck-prone, more strategic opening.

Before Hinterlands, Mint was the only special case: If you pick Mint as an opening buy, of course you fish out 5 Coppers and trash them. After Hinterlands, we have some more special cases, but it still works. Like, if someone opens Noble Brigand on turn 1 (rare), some opponents might have to choose their opening hand, then all opponents shuffle the remaining five cards.

Well, now there's also Lost City, Baker, Borrow, Alms, Save, Scouting Party, Travelling Fair, Nomad Camp...

Nomad Camp was in Hinterlands, so it was one of the cards we managed. I used to play like this up to and including Dark Ages without a problem. Haven't played serious games IRL with Adventures. It generally makes Nomad Camp weaker, because if you want a $5, you buy a $5 instead of opening Nomad Camp. Baker is no problem, it just gives you more options, now you can buy a $6, and the total is $8.

The others I haven't tried, but Alms is easy. The others are like Nomad Camp and Noble Brigand: people have to pick out cards and shuffle them. It does get more complicated, but not impossible. I still prefer this method to stacking when it comes to these card abilities.

[Kirian]

I always put $500 on the Province pile.  You take it when you roll a 7.

[Marcory]

I give players 1 VP per Village, 2 VP per City, 2 VP's for the first player to get 5 Highways, 2 VP for the first to get three Soldiers, and 1 VP for each of Governor, University, Market, Library, and Chapel. In this particular Kingdom, 10 VP is usually enough to win.

[ConMan]

I give players 1 VP per Village, 2 VP per City, 2 VP's for the first player to get 5 Highways, 2 VP for the first to get three Soldiers, and 1 VP for each of Governor, University, Market, Library, and Chapel. In this particular Kingdom, 10 VP is usually enough to win.

I have a similar scheme, but if someone gets more Highways or Soldiers I let them have those VP instead.

[Marcory]

I give players 1 VP per Village, 2 VP per City, 2 VP's for the first player to get 5 Highways, 2 VP for the first to get three Soldiers, and 1 VP for each of Governor, University, Market, Library, and Chapel. In this particular Kingdom, 10 VP is usually enough to win.

I have a similar scheme, but if someone gets more Highways or Soldiers I let them have those VP instead.

There are only 10 Highways and 5 Soldiers, so the first person to get 5/3 gets and keeps the points. Band of Misfits can be a Highway, but not a Soldier; maybe you're counting Knights, Militia, Mercenary, Champion, and other military types as soldiers?

[ConMan]

I definitely count Knights and Soldiers as equivalent for that purpose.

[ackmondual]

Make P/C a 25% chance of being in the game, no matter how many Prosperity cards there are.  So we can have them even if 0 Prosperity cards are in the Kingdom setup, or not have them if they're all Pros.

Ditto with Shelters and DA cards.

Throne Room does require players to be honest about having Action cards in hand to play.  One group, we just made it optional, like Kings Court.

For a game where the player with 5/2 split will be at a disadvantage, we have all players start with a 5/2 split.  One case comes to mind is a Supply with Lab + Chapel.

For a 4p tournament game, 2 randomizer cards were dealt face up into the center.  Each player got 5 cards.  Picked 2 to put face down, and discarded the rest.  Revealed the remaining 8 cards to get our Supply.

In another 4p tourney, 14 randomizer cards were dealt face up.  Each player, starting with the last player and going in reverse turn order got to "veto" a card.  Unfortunately, this made the whole ordeal of thinking through the game before the game even started 

[Witherweaver]

If you don't draw any Land in your opening hand, you can call a mulligan. 

[Eran of Arcadia]

If you don't draw any Land in your opening hand, you can call a mulligan.

I could have used this in a recent game, I opened 5/2 on a board with no 2s and only Mine for a 5. Of course, as luck would have it my opponent also opened 5/2.

[Awaclus]

If you don't draw any Land in your opening hand, you can call a mulligan.

I could have used this in a recent game, I opened 5/2 on a board with no 2s and only Mine for a 5. Of course, as luck would have it my opponent also opened 5/2.

That would have been a great opportunity for the "if everyone takes a mulligan, everyone gets to draw up to 7" rule.

[Aleimon Thimble]

If you don't draw any Land in your opening hand, you can call a mulligan.

I could have used this in a recent game, I opened 5/2 on a board with no 2s and only Mine for a 5. Of course, as luck would have it my opponent also opened 5/2.

Mine is not a terrible opening on most boards. It's slightly weaker than Trading Post, but has more longevity.

[JW]

Games with 4 players end when 4+ piles are empty, not when 3+ piles are empty (this is the standard rule for 5+ player games).

Donald X on a related topic:

4 player games use 16 of each VP card and only end when 4 piles are empty instead of 3. Would make the game less of a sprint for VP.

I like the game length in terms of turns more with 4 Provinces per player, but made it 3 for 4 players due to the game length in terms of minutes. For sure if the minutes aren't an issue for you then 16 Provinces for 4 players is a good variant. I don't know what the best number of empty piles would be, I would have to do testing.

[ackmondual]

Games with 4 players end when 4+ piles are empty, not when 3+ piles are empty (this is the standard rule for 5+ player games).

Donald X on a related topic:

4 player games use 16 of each VP card and only end when 4 piles are empty instead of 3. Would make the game less of a sprint for VP.

I like the game length in terms of turns more with 4 Provinces per player, but made it 3 for 4 players due to the game length in terms of minutes. For sure if the minutes aren't an issue for you then 16 Provinces for 4 players is a good variant. I don't know what the best number of empty piles would be, I would have to do testing.

3.5 empty piles! :p  That would be annoying to keep track of though

[Lekkit]

We stack the starting decks before playing. We also don't play with Black Market since it's a hassle to set up when you want 3+ identical tables for league play.

[junkers]

Events are shuffled into two separate piles. Once an event has been bought, it goes to a discard pile and the next is revealed. So theoretically you could play three or more different events in one turn, given enough coin.

This was adopted so we could see all the newfangled Event thingamies on our first round of Adventures. We tried one pile the first game, but it stalled when no-one wanted to buy a particular event (possibly Bonfire, because we're all rubbish at this game).

[JThorne]

it stalled when no-one wanted to buy a particular event (possibly Bonfire, because we're all rubbish at this game.)

Hey, I can edge-case that. Maybe you're not all rubbish. Maybe you had already trashed all of your coppers by that time. And you weren't playing with Rats. Or Sea Hag once the curses pile out (gotta love throwing a "witch" on a bonfire.) Or it was an undisputable BM-X board which didn't want you to trash coppers.

Buy yeah, Bonfire is normally great. If your group doesn't like trashing, you're doing it wrong. I watched a non-beginner in my IRL playgroup veto Chapel recently and the rest of the table nearly rioted. Now we play with a "reserve" round before the veto round so each player gets to pick a card that can't be vetoed.

[junkers]

If your group doesn't like trashing, you're doing it wrong.

I was starting to come around to the idea because my decks are just too darn huge, but I still find myself making a lot of dumb decisions and flooding my deck. Of course, the longer I spend here, the realisation of how dumb they are sinks in.

I do like how you tried to edge-case it to make us sound less incompetent, but. It was Adventures only - that's your homework for the week.

[JThorne]

I do like how you tried to edge-case it to make us sound less incompetent, but. It was Adventures only - that's your homework for the week.

Ok, let's see. I'll assume 2 Events: Bonfire and Quest.

Kingdom cards: Gear, Guide, Duplicate, Miser, Distant Lands, Hireling, Transmogrify, Amulet, Ratcatcher, Raze

I think that might do it. That might be a kingdom where there would be no reason to buy Bonfire. I also cheated a little by putting the three other trashers in the Kingdom (Amulet/Ratcatcher/Raze.) There's no +Buy, no +Actions, no gaining, so there's no engine here; nothing better you could possibly do than buy a Province a turn. Plus, Gear is in the Kingdom, the new king of Big Money. I don't think there's anything else faster than three Gears, pile the Provinces and move on to the next Kingdom and forget this mess ever appeared. Bonfiring coppers wouldn't accomplish anything but costing turns; it's not worth increasing the money density by trashing when playing BM because you'll stall faster when greening.

Now we'll see if anyone edge-cases my edge-case. Maybe some sort of weird Distant Lands Golden deck? I put in Distant Lands just to draw out other comments. I couldn't see a way to get/play multiples in one turn though, so even a deck of G/S/DL doesn't beat a Province a turn.

I have to admit, learning to play this game properly really does take time. It can be broken down into several stages:

1. Buying too many actions and making gigantic engines that do nothing.
2. Realizing that BM+X beats those bad engines easily. (Being sad for a minute.)
3. Realizing that a good engine will beat BM+X, but usually only by making multiple victory card buys, or by being much more consistent once greening starts.
4. Reading the strategy wiki and forums to find out what card combos work and about all of the different deck archetypes, buying proprities, money density, etc. Also terminology.
5. Being able to look at a Kingdom before buying a single card and identifying the optimal strategy for that kingdom. (Results may vary.)

One important note: Ignore the edge-case posts, parodies, facetious advice and pedantic arguments. Read the other 20% of the forum posts. There are some fantastic articles and discussions here about strategy, statistics, card evaluations, etc. Not all of them are gospel, but a surprising number of them are better than some of the now-outdated articles on the strategy wiki.

[ConMan]

I'm thinking of possible house rules for Platinums and Shelters. Especially now that Empires is a kind-of sequel to Prosperity, but which I assume will not count for including Platinums (and hey, maybe it does, that's cool), then the chances that (a) a random board will include Platinums, and (b) a random board with expensive cards will include Platinums, both drop quite a bit, and I think that's a pity. Even discounting that, I like the idea that you could have a board with 0 Prosperity cards but could still have a chance of Platinums and Colonies, and maybe even an all-Prosperity board without them.

I know that you can play however you like, but as someone with a very mathematically-oriented mind I'd like to come up with a suitable random process that feels "fair" to me.

Some ideas:

1. Add 1 Prosperity, 1 Dark Ages and 1 base card to the "pool" that you draw from when checking for Platinums and Shelters. This adds a small amount of variation in each direction.

2. Roll random numbers proportional to the number of Prosperity and Dark Ages cards, independently of the board. This doesn't change the probability of using Platinums/Shelters across all possible games, but it means that it's not conditional on the make-up of the kingdom.

3. Flip 1 card from the Kingdom *and* one card from the remaining Randomisers. If at least one is from Prosperity, include Platinums. If at least one is from Dark Ages, include Shelters. This way all-Prosperity kingdoms are still guaranteed Platinums, and similarly for Dark Ages and Shelters, but all other kingdoms have a small bump in the probability that they get included.

[ConMan]

Running some rough numbers, then the probabilities of getting Platinums under the various methods (method 0 being the original Prosperity setup) are:

# Prosp	Method 0	Method 1	Method 2	Method 3
0	0.0%	7.7%	10.6%	11.1%
1	10.0%	15.4%	10.6%	19.6%
2	20.0%	23.1%	10.6%	28.1%
3	30.0%	30.8%	10.6%	36.8%
4	40.0%	38.5%	10.6%	45.6%
5	50.0%	46.2%	10.6%	54.4%
6	60.0%	53.8%	10.6%	63.4%
7	70.0%	61.5%	10.6%	72.4%
8	80.0%	69.2%	10.6%	81.5%
9	90.0%	76.9%	10.6%	90.7%
10	100.0%	84.6%	10.6%	100.0%

And, by my reckoning, the proportion of kingdoms that would include Platinums under the various methods are 11.6% (draw 1 from kingdom), 15.8% (draw 1 from kingdom + 1 each Prosperity, Dark Ages, other), 10.6% (draw from all cards), 20.1% (draw one from each of kingdom and not-kingdom).

That's all ignoring Young Witch and so forth, of course, and not counting Empires. If we assume there are about 24 kingdom cards in Empires, then the proportions go to 9.6%, 15.1%, 9.6% and 18.3%.

I kind of like Method 1, since it's the one that lets you have an all-Prosperity kingdom without Platinums or a no-Prosperity kingdom with them without just giving a flat probability, and ~1 in 6 or 7 kingdoms having Platinums seems like an ok amount to me, even if it's a bit more often than the 1 in 9 offered by the original method.

[Accatitippi]

I thought about another house rule we use: we usually put the whole randomizer deck in the Black Market, ignoring most setup effect except potion. It's mainly to spare time setting up. (otherwise everybody wants to look through the Black Market). If a card gets bought, in some cases we retroactively perform its setup. (like putting the right amount og coins on Trade route's mat)

[funkdoc]

shame Adam doesn't post here since this is the kind of topic where he'd have a lot of interesting thoughts.  he's talked about some of the cards he bans for his IRL tournaments and it's mainly stuff that takes too long to resolve (spy, scrying pool, hunting party) or otherwise makes games drag on for ages (ambassador is the specific one i recall).  honestly that's a big part of why i feel IRL will never compare to online competitively, i mean amb is one of the more skill-heavy cards out there!

[Limetime]

I thought about another house rule we use: we usually put the whole randomizer deck in the Black Market, ignoring most setup effect except potion. It's mainly to spare time setting up. (otherwise everybody wants to look through the Black Market). If a card gets bought, in some cases we retroactively perform its setup. (like putting the right amount og coins on Trade route's mat)

This is not a house rule. It is totally legal if not the olny legal way to do it. MF has introduced the thirty card rule.

[pacovf]

I usually finish the round after an endgame condition has been reached.

I know, heresy.

[J Reggie]

I thought about another house rule we use: we usually put the whole randomizer deck in the Black Market, ignoring most setup effect except potion. It's mainly to spare time setting up. (otherwise everybody wants to look through the Black Market). If a card gets bought, in some cases we retroactively perform its setup. (like putting the right amount og coins on Trade route's mat)

This is not a house rule. It is totally legal if not the olny legal way to do it. MF has introduced the thirty card rule.

I think he's saying that, even if Baker is always in the Black Market, they don't always get the extra coin token. I know for me I don't really do the extra setup stuff like Baker and Trade Route; I just put out the bane because Jack of All Dominion automatically does it. It's hard to keep a mental tally of every setup condition.

[Limetime]

I thought about another house rule we use: we usually put the whole randomizer deck in the Black Market, ignoring most setup effect except potion. It's mainly to spare time setting up. (otherwise everybody wants to look through the Black Market). If a card gets bought, in some cases we retroactively perform its setup. (like putting the right amount og coins on Trade route's mat)

This is not a house rule. It is totally legal if not the olny legal way to do it. MF has introduced the thirty card rule.

Oh I thought he was saying he used the whole randomized deck instead of 30 cards.

I think he's saying that, even if Baker is always in the Black Market, they don't always get the extra coin token. I know for me I don't really do the extra setup stuff like Baker and Trade Route; I just put out the bane because Jack of All Dominion automatically does it. It's hard to keep a mental tally of every setup condition.