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[Seprix]

I know there's that old Council Room website with openings, but there's no Dark Ages, there will be no Adventurers, no Guilds, and soon, no Empires. Mountebank/Chapel is a fantastic opening, but I would think Urchin/Urchin gives it a run for it's money for best opening. I guess since there's no real way to gauge statistics to my knowledge at the moment, we can speculate.

[Awaclus]

Urchin/Urchin isn't even the best Urchin opening.

[Chris is me]

Between Borrow, Ferry, Alms, Summon... The "best opening" discussion is about to get WAY more complicated.

[eHalcyon]

Worst opening... Curse/Curse?

[schadd]

do you know who else forgets alms? everybody.

i've said a few times in the past that it's mint/remake, or at least that's super strong. awaclus said an correct thing, that urchin/urchin is worse than, like, urchin/hag by a lot. honestly urchin isn't really that good, the reason it's #3 is that it's always kinda good. you get to make exactly 0 choices until about turn 5 (because until then the correct answer is more urchins) and then things start happening, and then you start playing a game called mercenary.

and, as noted by mr. is me, it's not answerable. ferry/6 is super good. ambassadors are still competitive. beggar/beggar is good if there is also gardens.

[jsh357]

Urchin/urchin seems a lot better than urchin/sea hag to me. Why give the guy more likely to get mercenary ammo?

[schadd]

Urchin/urchin seems a lot better than urchin/sea hag to me. Why give the guy more likely to get mercenary ammo?

i think that thing was a yolk but for those of you at home, playing mercenary for the sake of it is a bit worse than militia because you always need two junks for it to work. also you have to have a curse for a while

[liopoil]

Worst opening... Curse/Curse?

Nope, Travelling Fair/Curse/Curse on turn 1 and then TF/TF/Borrow/TF/Curse/Curse/Curse/Curse on the deck on turn 2.

Turn 3 will be just 4 curses and then Turns 4-6 will be with a deck of starting cards + 6 curses.

[jsh357]

Urchin/urchin seems a lot better than urchin/sea hag to me. Why give the guy more likely to get mercenary ammo?

i think that thing was a yolk but for those of you at home, playing mercenary for the sake of it is a bit worse than militia because you always need two junks for it to work. also you have to have a curse for a while

I think sea hag is also worse because it's a terminal competing with mercenary, which can also draw hag dead. Only going by my own experience/success.

[Seprix]

Urchin/Urchin isn't even the best Urchin opening.

Okay, any other cantrip attacks that cost $4 or less? Baker Tokened Minion/Urchin is broken strong, but what else would there be?

[eHalcyon]

Urchin/Urchin isn't even the best Urchin opening.

Okay, any other cantrip attacks that cost $4 or less? Baker Tokened Minion/Urchin is broken strong, but what else would there be?

Maybe Urchin/Swindler.

[Seprix]

Urchin/Urchin isn't even the best Urchin opening.

Okay, any other cantrip attacks that cost $4 or less? Baker Tokened Minion/Urchin is broken strong, but what else would there be?

Maybe Urchin/Swindler.

Maybe. I don't like attack terminal-Draw cards with Urchin, but Swindler is okay. I'd rather double Urchin I think.

[Elestan]

Travelling Fair -> X, where X is almost any $2-$3 Trasher, Attack, or Silver-equivalent.  Playing a real card on T2 is ridiculously effective, especially as first player.

[DG]

Some of the more exotic openings, like doctor/mountebank, might do quite well.

[schadd]

Urchin/urchin seems a lot better than urchin/sea hag to me. Why give the guy more likely to get mercenary ammo?

i think that thing was a yolk but for those of you at home, playing mercenary for the sake of it is a bit worse than militia because you always need two junks for it to work. also you have to have a curse for a while

I think sea hag is also worse because it's a terminal competing with mercenary, which can also draw hag dead. Only going by my own experience/success.

i think that it's still better than another urchin, which does pretty close to nothing for a while, and the fact that it gives a non-rigorous 25% chance to mercenary is kinda nullified by the chance to take one of the opponent's out of commission.

terminalness is one of the things that often feels different in practice so i can't comment on it very well, but with cards at slightly above the part level of sea hag it's worth it (read: swindler/swindler, ambassador/ambassador)

also if there aren't villages then that game doesn't matter lmao

[Witherweaver]

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

[schadd]

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

i mean, it's mountebank

[jsh357]

Urchin/urchin seems a lot better than urchin/sea hag to me. Why give the guy more likely to get mercenary ammo?

i think that thing was a yolk but for those of you at home, playing mercenary for the sake of it is a bit worse than militia because you always need two junks for it to work. also you have to have a curse for a while

I think sea hag is also worse because it's a terminal competing with mercenary, which can also draw hag dead. Only going by my own experience/success.

i think that it's still better than another urchin, which does pretty close to nothing for a while, and the fact that it gives a non-rigorous 25% chance to mercenary is kinda nullified by the chance to take one of the opponent's out of commission.

terminalness is one of the things that often feels different in practice so i can't comment on it very well, but with cards at slightly above the part level of sea hag it's worth it (read: swindler/swindler, ambassador/ambassador)

also if there aren't villages then that game doesn't matter lmao

In practice, you do want 2-3 Urchins. Getting 2 Mercenaries tends to work out better than having one, particularly when facing a card such as Sea Hag.

[Awaclus]

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

I vote for Mercenary/Platinum as your opening buys.

[Awaclus]

Urchin/Urchin isn't even the best Urchin opening.

Okay, any other cantrip attacks that cost $4 or less? Baker Tokened Minion/Urchin is broken strong, but what else would there be?

Maybe Urchin/Swindler.

Maybe. I don't like attack terminal-Draw cards with Urchin, but Swindler is okay. I'd rather double Urchin I think.

Urchin/Swindler is much better than Urchin/Urchin.

EDIT: these were supposed to be a single post. Oh well.

[faust]

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

I vote for Mercenary/Platinum as your opening buys.

I think there's an argument to be made for Mercenary/Champion, followed by a Diadem buy on T3.

[schadd]

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

I vote for Mercenary/Platinum as your opening buys.

I think there's an argument to be made for Mercenary/Champion, followed by a Diadem buy on T3.

yeah, but, uh, have you ever tried mint/remake though

[Seprix]

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

I vote for Mercenary/Platinum as your opening buys.

I think there's an argument to be made for Mercenary/Champion, followed by a Diadem buy on T3.

Nice Awaclusian answer.

[A Drowned Kernel]

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

[wachsmuth]

Urchin/Urchin isn't even the best Urchin opening.

Okay, any other cantrip attacks that cost $4 or less? Baker Tokened Minion/Urchin is broken strong, but what else would there be?

Well there's Spy. Spy/Urchin is a worse opening than Urchin/Urchin though.

[gloures]

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summoning remake turn one and thrashing two estates turn two, looks specially incredible

[luser]

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summoning remake turn one and thrashing two estates turn two, looks specially incredible

Thats still quite weak, compared with for example by inheriting procession and getting two governors on turn 2

[singletee]

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summoning remake turn one and thrashing two estates turn two, looks specially incredible

Thats still quite weak, compared with for example by inheriting procession and getting two governors on turn 2

This doesn't work, since Estate still costs 2. You'll get two Actions costing 3.

[Seprix]

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summon a Chapel.

[Marcory]

Best: Alms (Remake/Tournament)/Inherit Ironmonger.

[Awaclus]

Maybe we should have a "what's the best Mercenary/X opening" bracket!

I vote for Mercenary/Platinum as your opening buys.

I think there's an argument to be made for Mercenary/Champion, followed by a Diadem buy on T3.

Nice Awaclusian answer.

There would need to be a reference to an f.ds meme though. Such as the Platinum/Platinum opening.

Instead, I would say that it was a nice faustian answer.

[Davio]

Shelters: Baker + Borrow for $7.

T1: Open Stonemason, Mountebank, Minion
T2: Necropolis, Mb, Minion, Hovel: Play Nec, Mb, Minion (discard), make opponent draw the Curse, fun times.

[drsteelhammer]

Shelters: Baker + Borrow for $7.

T1: Open Stonemason, Mountebank, Minion
T2: Necropolis, Mb, Minion, Hovel: Play Nec, Mb, Minion (discard), make opponent draw the Curse, fun times.

Am I missing something? Shouldnt your second turn not be OG, Necro, Hovel, Copper?

[Davio]

Hmm, my evil plot was thwarted by the fact Stonemason and Travelling Fair are not the same.

[Witherweaver]

Hmm, my evil plot was thwarted by the fact Stonemason and Travelling Fair are not the same.

Happens to Bond villains all the time.

[ThetaSigma12]

If you're playing with fan cards Ascetic/Mint is always a quality option!

[markusin]

A turn one Summon I expect is going to be incredible in most circumstances.

Summoning a Sea Hag Turn 1 as first player will cause your opponent to have their Turn 2 buy miss the reshuffle under typical circumstances (you know, like no Travelling Fair topdecking and whatnot), while stuffing your opponent's Turn 3 hand with a Curse. Harsh stuff.

[werothegreat]

I opened Swindler/Urchin once.  Swindled the other player's Mercenary.  It was nice.  I think I still lost that game, though.

[AdrianHealey]

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

[liopoil]

If we get to choose our shuffle luck in the cleanup-phase of turn 2 as well, then yeah we can easily guarrantee the win on T3 as player 1.

[Beyond Awesome]

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

[dedicateddan]

Nomad camp/Watchtower/Hamlet

Turn 3 hamlet, discard 2 estates, play nomad camp, play watchtower, draw 6 copper

Turn 4 kicks off with some procession/fortress tricks

[eHalcyon]

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

[AdrianHealey]

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

My counterpoint would be that all of these 'ideal openings' specify at least a few (2 or 3 cards, maybe 1 or 2 events) things themselves. I am only ever so slightly pushing this concept into 'determine all cards, the entire black market deck and shuffle luck'. A difference in degree, really.

[Roadrunner7671]

Best: Rebuild/something with Alms?

It's sad but it might be good.

[drsteelhammer]

My vote goes to Inheritance on Tournament/Province opening.

Needs 5/2 with Baker and Borrow. It's pretty likely to get a prize on T4 or T5 which is kinda cool on a lot of boards. Especially since Followers gains you Tournaments in this case

[luser]

My vote goes to Inheritance on Tournament/Province opening.

Needs 5/2 with Baker and Borrow. It's pretty likely to get a prize on T4 or T5 which is kinda cool on a lot of boards. Especially since Followers gains you Tournaments in this case

Ok, fixed my previous idea, inheriting ironworks looks best especially with great cards like ferry, wharf, crossroads, great hall and scout.

[eHalcyon]

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

My counterpoint would be that all of these 'ideal openings' specify at least a few (2 or 3 cards, maybe 1 or 2 events) things themselves. I am only ever so slightly pushing this concept into 'determine all cards, the entire black market deck and shuffle luck'. A difference in degree, really.

Yeah, but I think the degree is important.  If you're laying out out the entire kingdom, then you're no longer providing the "best opening" but just analysing a specific kingdom.

Another way to put it is that I think the "best opening" should only be concerned with the opening.  So in this case, the opening is Nomad Camp/Watchtower/Hamlet.  We know that this is killer for one very specific scenario, but how is it in general, where the other 7 cards are unspecified and your luck isn't guaranteed to be perfect?  I'd guess that it is not so great.

[liopoil]

This is the best opening. Okay, it used three players, fine. We'll need some very specific and restrictive rules to make the answer something which could be stated in one sentence.

[jomini]

 

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

My counterpoint would be that all of these 'ideal openings' specify at least a few (2 or 3 cards, maybe 1 or 2 events) things themselves. I am only ever so slightly pushing this concept into 'determine all cards, the entire black market deck and shuffle luck'. A difference in degree, really.

Yeah, but I think the degree is important.  If you're laying out out the entire kingdom, then you're no longer providing the "best opening" but just analysing a specific kingdom.

Another way to put it is that I think the "best opening" should only be concerned with the opening.  So in this case, the opening is Nomad Camp/Watchtower/Hamlet.  We know that this is killer for one very specific scenario, but how is it in general, where the other 7 cards are unspecified and your luck isn't guaranteed to be perfect?  I'd guess that it is not so great.

Exactly how crazy do we want things to go? Specifying just 2.5 cards and having free reign on events gets me a lot of craziness.

Opening with:
T1: Save (anything)
T2: Baker/Borrow: Tfair, Quest (gain Gold), Alms (Develop)


T3: Dev (trash Gold, gain Kc/power $5)

You can literally gain all cards by the end of T5 with worst possible shuffle luck on the right board. Even without going that far, you can manage some pretty insane things without having to rely on low odds shuffles. Dumping 12 cards of opponent Junk (Kc/Mountebank), buying a $15 Doc (Kc/Bom/Death cart), drawing deck & Inheriting a cantrip or picking up multiple engine components (Margrave, Council room, etc.), drawing deck and trashing an Estate (Kc/Stables).

There are also a lot of setups where this is insanely powerful without a different $7 - Gov/Forge; Hparty/Expand, and maybe even Venture/Bank on a colony board.


In terms of a simple opening, I think the the best might be something like Hermit x3/Madman:
T1: Summon Hermit
T2: Trash Hov, Gain Herm, trash Herm; Alms for a Herm

When you want to mass Hermits, it is normally an excruciatingly powerful combo (MarketSquare, but also Csmith, Goons w/o other villages, Hop & a cheap way to get them, Secret chamber & +buys, Artificer) that poor players would never manage and be dominating when it is worth it to tank your deck to win the Hermit (Madman) split.

In terms of versatility something like
T1: Expedition (Use Baker coin)
T2: Mint, Tfair, Alms (Remake)

This gives you a 5 card hand with a power TfB. You get to Kc/$4 in 2 turns or you can just pound treasures & BM starting on T4.

[eHalcyon]

I don't know how crazy to go, but I'd discount your first example at least because it specifies KC when you don't gain it until t3.  Your opening there is only Gold/Develop top-decked for t3.  Pretty cool if there's a 7/5 combo on the board, but not so great otherwise.

[Seprix]

I mean, there is an opening that let's you buy the supply on T4. I am going to go ahead and call that the best one there is. Or at least a contender. Probably could be countered by militia or something, though.

What opening is that?

Refer to CelestialChameleon's puzzle.

But I don't think that works for the question at hand, since it involves a lot more than just the opening.  You need to specify most (maybe all) of the kingdom cards, so it's not very generalizable.

My counterpoint would be that all of these 'ideal openings' specify at least a few (2 or 3 cards, maybe 1 or 2 events) things themselves. I am only ever so slightly pushing this concept into 'determine all cards, the entire black market deck and shuffle luck'. A difference in degree, really.

Yeah, but I think the degree is important.  If you're laying out out the entire kingdom, then you're no longer providing the "best opening" but just analysing a specific kingdom.

Another way to put it is that I think the "best opening" should only be concerned with the opening.  So in this case, the opening is Nomad Camp/Watchtower/Hamlet.  We know that this is killer for one very specific scenario, but how is it in general, where the other 7 cards are unspecified and your luck isn't guaranteed to be perfect?  I'd guess that it is not so great.

Exactly how crazy do we want things to go? Specifying just 2.5 cards and having free reign on events gets me a lot of craziness.

Opening with:
T1: Save (anything)
T2: Baker/Borrow: Tfair, Quest (gain Gold), Alms (Develop)


T3: Dev (trash Gold, gain Kc/power $5)

You can literally gain all cards by the end of T5 with worst possible shuffle luck on the right board. Even without going that far, you can manage some pretty insane things without having to rely on low odds shuffles. Dumping 12 cards of opponent Junk (Kc/Mountebank), buying a $15 Doc (Kc/Bom/Death cart), drawing deck & Inheriting a cantrip or picking up multiple engine components (Margrave, Council room, etc.), drawing deck and trashing an Estate (Kc/Stables).

There are also a lot of setups where this is insanely powerful without a different $7 - Gov/Forge; Hparty/Expand, and maybe even Venture/Bank on a colony board.


In terms of a simple opening, I think the the best might be something like Hermit x3/Madman:
T1: Summon Hermit
T2: Trash Hov, Gain Herm, trash Herm; Alms for a Herm

When you want to mass Hermits, it is normally an excruciatingly powerful combo (MarketSquare, but also Csmith, Goons w/o other villages, Hop & a cheap way to get them, Secret chamber & +buys, Artificer) that poor players would never manage and be dominating when it is worth it to tank your deck to win the Hermit (Madman) split.

In terms of versatility something like
T1: Expedition (Use Baker coin)
T2: Mint, Tfair, Alms (Remake)

This gives you a 5 card hand with a power TfB. You get to Kc/$4 in 2 turns or you can just pound treasures & BM starting on T4.

Come on. Reasonable openings. Not this convoluted nonsense that will never align in your lifetime.