Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Seprix]

House of Cards.

-How effective is the attack?
-How does this card compare to other Silver gainers?
-Any use in an Engine?

[GendoIkari]

This happens to be one of the very few cards, along with Masquerade and Cutpurse, that can theoretically create an infinite pin against your opponent.

Anyway, the attack part is actually a lot like giving your opponent their -1 card token.

[LastFootnote]

OK so, Bureaucrat.

It's rare for Bureaucrat to be good in an engine deck, since usually you play it last and—even in the cases where you want "free" Silvers as a payload—you don't want Silvers on top of your deck. In fact you want them in your discard pile (or on the bottom of your deck).

But for many other decks, Bureaucrat can be great. For most alt-VP slogs it's incredible; The Silvers on your deck are a boon and any opponents that also go alt-VP slog are very likely to be hit by the attack. In some cases (Gardens, Feodum), the Silvers themselves are contributing VP to your deck.

Bureaucrat is kind of niche in today's fast-paced engine world, but it's not too niche. I buy it plenty and don't regret doing so.

[amoffett11]

My very first game of Dominion was with the Recommended Set "Village Square".  My brother bought a lot of Bureaucrats, and it became very obvious that there was no better card in Dominion.  Not only is he forcing me to draw my victory cards twice, but he is getting a free SILVER.  And he gets it right on top of his deck, as if the card wasn't unfair enough already.  He ended up having a deck full of silvers and Golds and easily rode his bureaucrats to victory. 

The next day my sister and I played the "Big Money" recommended set, and I beat her handedly by opening with Bureaucrats, Mining my silvers into Golds, and then playing Adventurers to scoop the golds up.  I won fairly easily (and my sister was mad at me because in this 2P game, I was keeping track of the points in my head, which she thought was unfair).  I had pretty much figured Dominion out:  Bureaucrat is great and should be bought always. 

The attack is hit-and-miss (literally).  You could consider that it gives your opponent their -1 card token, but only if they have a victory card in their hand.  If you miss the first couple times you play Bureaucrat, congratulations, you've just paid $4 to gain a couple silvers.  If there's Estate Trashing, you'll probably avoid Bureaucrat. 

I like playing Bureaucrat in games where my opponent is buying lots of Nobles or Harems; losing that Harem/Nobles turn after turn hurts a lot more.

[werothegreat]

As a Silver-gainer, it's meh.  Not the best Feodum enabler, but it is one.

[Seprix]

My brother bought a lot of Bureaucrats, and it became very obvious that there was no better card in Dominion. 

I had pretty much figured Dominion out:  Bureaucrat is great and should be bought always. 

You might be in for a very rude awakening.

[Witherweaver]

I'm pretty sure it's the strongest card in Dominion...

[Marcory]

Shouldn't  the card text be longer, in smaller  print, and in triplicate?

[Witherweaver]

Shouldn't  the card text be longer, in smaller  print, and in triplicate?

You should have to fill out the proper forms to buy it, too.

[Beyond Awesome]

Overall, I am not a fan. The board has to be a very weak BM board for me to even bother with this. Even for Feodum, this is pretty meh. And, man, Silver flooding my deck does not sound fun...unless jack is flooding my deck...then, that is okay...sometimes.

[Davio]

The bad thing is that Silver-gaining is basically a self-attack.
So you're attacking your opponent and your own deck.

Also, it's terminal and you'd rather spend precious actions on $5 cards than $4 cards.

[jsh357]

I only buy this card if 1. I have a high likelihood of the attack working on each play (no trashing on the board) and 2. Silvers are good. So basically, on alt vp slog boards. The drawback even in that situation is that bureaucrat uses your action and does nothing right away, so it's still not as good as, say, beggar.

[ThetaSigma12]

It has a good synergy with rabble and haunted woods. Rabble can make sure you topdeck plenty of green, continual haunted woods are made much better if you play one after a turn with tons of bureaucrats.

[DG]

Bureaucrat is ok. It's better in multiplayer where games can deteriorate faster so a rush or slog is more likely. The attack is more likely to be repeated from turn to turn in multiplayer as well, clogging up a deck.

In engines you can sometimes be happy to have any card that gain extra stuff and a bureaucrat can certainly do that for you.

[theJester]

The bad thing is that Silver-gaining is basically a self-attack.
So you're attacking your opponent and your own deck.

Linear engine thinking. Card's value doesn't depend solely on their usability in engines.

Bureaucrat can be great in Garden/Silk Road/Duke and similar slogs - where you want as many SIlvers in your deck as you can get, in addition slowing down already slow opponent's deck.

[Seprix]

The bad thing is that Silver-gaining is basically a self-attack.
So you're attacking your opponent and your own deck.

Linear engine thinking. Card's value doesn't depend solely on their usability in engines.

Bureaucrat can be great in Garden/Silk Road/Duke and similar slogs - where you want as many SIlvers in your deck as you can get, in addition slowing down already slow opponent's deck.

Well, to be fair to Davio, most games are won through engines. Big Money or slogs tend to be the exception, not the rule.

[ConMan]

Shouldn't  the card text be longer, in smaller  print, and in triplicate?

Here's one of my first posts, from RBCI:

Inspired by the excessively wordy JoaT variants:

Bureaucrat (alternative version)

1. While acting in accordance with the Rules of Dominion (henceforth referred to as "The Rules") and any legislation pertinent to the location of the person who played this card (henceforth referred to as "you"), gain a copy of the card named Silver from the appropriate supply pile (if available). However, as according to the Special Provisions as laid out in "The Rules", place the gained card on top of your deck.

2. Persons playing in the game of Dominion in which this card was played, with the sole exception of the player who played this card (henceforth referred to as "each other player") must reveal to you and each other player a card from the set of cards referred to as their "hand" such that it is of type "Victory", notwithstanding the possible presence of other card types on said card, and place the revealed card on top of their deck. Each other player who is unable to reveal such a card is, in accordance with The Rules, required to reveal to you and each other player all cards currently in their "hand" in order to confirm the lack of such a card.

3. In the event that a player reveals a card of type "Reaction" (notwithstanding the possible presence of other card types on said card) in response to the playing of this card, in accordance with The Rules, then resolution of the effects of this card are to be suspended in preference of resolving the effects of the Reaction card, following which the resolution of the effects of this card may resume, potentially with modification as directed by the effects of the Reaction card.

[XerxesPraelor]

"Persons playing in the game of Dominion in which this card was played, with the sole exception of the player who played this card (henceforth referred to as "each other player") must reveal to you and each other player"

This would imply that in a 2-player game they would be only revealing the card to themselves.

[Witherweaver]

Shouldn't  the card text be longer, in smaller  print, and in triplicate?

Here's one of my first posts, from RBCI:

Inspired by the excessively wordy JoaT variants:

Bureaucrat (alternative version)

1. While acting in accordance with the Rules of Dominion (henceforth referred to as "The Rules") and any legislation pertinent to the location of the person who played this card (henceforth referred to as "you"), gain a copy of the card named Silver from the appropriate supply pile (if available). However, as according to the Special Provisions as laid out in "The Rules", place the gained card on top of your deck.

2. Persons playing in the game of Dominion in which this card was played, with the sole exception of the player who played this card (henceforth referred to as "each other player") must reveal to you and each other player a card from the set of cards referred to as their "hand" such that it is of type "Victory", notwithstanding the possible presence of other card types on said card, and place the revealed card on top of their deck. Each other player who is unable to reveal such a card is, in accordance with The Rules, required to reveal to you and each other player all cards currently in their "hand" in order to confirm the lack of such a card.

3. In the event that a player reveals a card of type "Reaction" (notwithstanding the possible presence of other card types on said card) in response to the playing of this card, in accordance with The Rules, then resolution of the effects of this card are to be suspended in preference of resolving the effects of the Reaction card, following which the resolution of the effects of this card may resume, potentially with modification as directed by the effects of the Reaction card.

I like that it's "ConMan" that came up with this.

[Davio]

The bad thing is that Silver-gaining is basically a self-attack.
So you're attacking your opponent and your own deck.

Linear engine thinking. Card's value doesn't depend solely on their usability in engines.

Bureaucrat can be great in Garden/Silk Road/Duke and similar slogs - where you want as many SIlvers in your deck as you can get, in addition slowing down already slow opponent's deck.

Well, to be fair to Davio, most games are won through engines. Big Money or slogs tend to be the exception, not the rule.

It's just cool to hate on Silver, even though I like Silver myself.
Silver is a perfectly balanced card.

[Eran of Arcadia]

The bad thing is that Silver-gaining is basically a self-attack.
So you're attacking your opponent and your own deck.

Linear engine thinking. Card's value doesn't depend solely on their usability in engines.

Bureaucrat can be great in Garden/Silk Road/Duke and similar slogs - where you want as many SIlvers in your deck as you can get, in addition slowing down already slow opponent's deck.

Well, to be fair to Davio, most games are won through engines. Big Money or slogs tend to be the exception, not the rule.

It's just cool to hate on Silver, even though I like Silver myself.
Silver is a perfectly balanced card.

They can't all be the best $3 treasure.

[Seprix]

The bad thing is that Silver-gaining is basically a self-attack.
So you're attacking your opponent and your own deck.

Linear engine thinking. Card's value doesn't depend solely on their usability in engines.

Bureaucrat can be great in Garden/Silk Road/Duke and similar slogs - where you want as many SIlvers in your deck as you can get, in addition slowing down already slow opponent's deck.

Well, to be fair to Davio, most games are won through engines. Big Money or slogs tend to be the exception, not the rule.

It's just cool to hate on Silver, even though I like Silver myself.
Silver is a perfectly balanced card.

They can't all be the best $3 treasure.

But they can all be the same avatar.

[AdrianHealey]

The bad thing is that Silver-gaining is basically a self-attack.
So you're attacking your opponent and your own deck.

Linear engine thinking. Card's value doesn't depend solely on their usability in engines.

Bureaucrat can be great in Garden/Silk Road/Duke and similar slogs - where you want as many SIlvers in your deck as you can get, in addition slowing down already slow opponent's deck.

Well, to be fair to Davio, most games are won through engines. Big Money or slogs tend to be the exception, not the rule.

It's just cool to hate on Silver, even though I like Silver myself.
Silver is a perfectly balanced card.

They can't all be the best $3 treasure.

In this particular case: yes, they can?

Ah, forgot about Loan & Masterpiece.

[wachsmuth]

Silver is better than Loan and Masterpiece though.

[jomini]

B-crat is being undersold as engine fodder. First let's start with Chapel. Chapel/B-crat is a perfectly fine opening, if you are lucky chapel shows up on T-3 and B-crat on T4 so you can kick back a green on the other guy. Once you are even remotely thin, adding a Silver on top is not that harmful. Once you are truly thin, then any village and draw can let you draw and play each turn; which is particularly nice as B-crat is one of the most action efficient efficient sources of cash after his third play (sure things like Mint can compete but virtually all of them cost more and lack the attack). In the late game, having a silver on top is very nice if you are duchy dancing and the "-1 card token" is extremely handy when it eventually causes the opponent to miss when they fish with a village when they otherwise would not.


But what about other engine setups? Well take Remodel (or a lot of its cousins, like Butcher or Expand), once you have a deck drawing engine, Remodel + B-crat is a nice shiny new $5. So I carry around another village, that is less harmful than a potion and a University is not particularly bad. Or take something like Remake, once everything is gone, throwing in B-crats with a spare $4 is a nice option for gaining Remake fodder, even if it is just Remaking S -> B-crat -> $5 (duchy). A mid-game B-crat can work out very nicely for efficient engine building is the silvers are rapidly turned into useful $5/4/6 cards. Upgrade, or even Develop can work as well if you have something nice at $4 .

Even some of the other TfB profit from a nice supply of cards with a decent attack - Apprentice, Forge (particularly for quick Plat building), Trade route (particularly when you need two buy two cards for several turns in a pre-thinned deck), Bishop (disrupts the classic golden deck and provides something for the Bish to kill that isn't your own green if you need to keep it alive).

So where does B-crat falter? When draw is harder to come by than actions. If you are building a X-roads engine, B-crat even though it has high odds of hitting the other guy takes up 1 of 3 vital terminal slots and is rarely worth it. On the other hand, if I can Altar a Stables every turn, adding in Silvers is easy to manage. B-crat adds $2 buying power/turn but it also increases your draw burden by 1. Silvers are only 2/3rds the density of golds and that is a real thing ... but when draw is cheap B-crat works nicely. Another reason B-crat falters is that before you have your engine up his payout is a turn later at a time when there is quasi-exponential returns on payouts and because he is anti-cycling when you typically want it.

That is a lot of B-crat/engine games where B-crat is a skip, but I am increasingly convinced that a lot of better play occurs when you read the board for how scarce +action, +cards, +gains, and +time actually are. When +cards is cheap and other things are expensive (or otherwise impossible), B-crat is a lot more manageable than let on. Sure most of the time, +cards is the hardest thing to mass (hence why its token event is the hardest to play), but likely a good 10-20% of boards do actually go the other way.

B-crat is not something that works well alone in an engine, but with a good enabling setup (e.g. village/Workshop/Smithy, Remodel/trasher/power non-terminal $5s) B-crat can do well either to degrade the other guy during the trash everything phase or to rapidly build value during the mid-game. Often this makes B-crat tactical - are you in a point in the shuffle where a spare $4 gain comes up with a nice action balance? But that is still a lot more common than the the ignore it in engines mentality showing up in this discussion.