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Author Topic: Let's Discuss... Adventures!  (Read 34590 times)

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Accatitippi

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2016, 09:39:32 am »
+4

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

I don't think that power creep is a thing in Dominion. Even if cards get more powerful over time, it's not inherently an issue because you don't have to buy the latest expansion just so that you can be competitive against your opponent who has it.

I used power creep to name the phenomenon of cards getting more powerful over time. I'm afraid the term might have brought with it some connotations from CCGs, but I was not referring to that. (economics and having to spend money to stay competitive)
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Seprix

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2016, 10:55:44 am »
0

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

I don't think that power creep is a thing in Dominion. Even if cards get more powerful over time, it's not inherently an issue because you don't have to buy the latest expansion just so that you can be competitive against your opponent who has it.

I used power creep to name the phenomenon of cards getting more powerful over time. I'm afraid the term might have brought with it some connotations from CCGs, but I was not referring to that. (economics and having to spend money to stay competitive)

We don't know how powerful the cards are yet, wait until widespread play. But to me, it seems the cards are all very well balanced. Scout's always been obsolete, but certain cards will always be better or worse in decks. Wharf is garbage in a game with Ironworks/Gardens/Silk Road, for example.

Scout's actually really legit with Adventures now. Just give Scout a card draw, it's a cheap Cartographer, but better.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 10:58:12 am by Seprix »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2016, 11:00:21 am »
0

My impression is that Adventures suffers of power creep about to the same degree as Seaside. The set has very few situational cards, and many Kingdom-definers. The good thing is that most of Adventures' powerhouses leave a lot of space to build different decks, since they are either very non-terminal (Treasure Trove, some reserves); or they do only one thing, albeit very well (Champion, token events).
With the possible exception of Gear-BM, I don't really see a problem with the power of Adventures cards, since they are no Cultists, and everybody loves their Wharf.

I don't think that power creep is a thing in Dominion. Even if cards get more powerful over time, it's not inherently an issue because you don't have to buy the latest expansion just so that you can be competitive against your opponent who has it.

I used power creep to name the phenomenon of cards getting more powerful over time. I'm afraid the term might have brought with it some connotations from CCGs, but I was not referring to that. (economics and having to spend money to stay competitive)

We don't know how powerful the cards are yet, wait until widespread play. But to me, it seems the cards are all very well balanced. Scout's always been obsolete, but certain cards will always be better or worse in decks. Wharf is garbage in a game with Ironworks/Gardens/Silk Road, for example.

Scout's actually really legit with Adventures now. Just give Scout a card draw, it's a cheap Cartographer, but better.

It'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 11:41:22 am by Witherweaver »
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2016, 11:36:15 am »
0

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2016, 11:42:31 am »
+6

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2016, 11:56:08 am »
0

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B
Intresting way to type a conditional...
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Awaclus

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2016, 12:01:41 pm »
0

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2016, 12:13:46 pm »
+1

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.

Still, it should have gone, "So if you're not cool then Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"
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convolucid

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2016, 04:23:07 pm »
+7

Adventures contains some of my very favorite cards, and also a few of my least favorite. I think that's to be expected given the extreme complexity of the set.

I've posted my opinion about Page before; I think it is the worst card in the game, with poor design and high impact. My IRL group gave it about 5 tries and everyone hated those games. So we banned Page, and that's the nice thing about IRL - problem solved, there are still lots of other cards to enjoy!

There are some other cards that I've started to dislike more subtly. Swamp Hag comes to mind: it's a cool concept, and there are lots of cards that work around it, but sometimes you don't get any counters and then you're in for a slow, swingy, boring game where everyone skips half their turns.

But then there's the good, and boy howdy is there a lot of it! Artificer, Teacher, every single pile-modifier, all three Journey cards, every Reserve card, Magpie, Storyteller... I love 'em all! These cards are unique, nuanced, and just plain fun! What more can I say?

Adventures cards often lead to feast-or-famine gameplay. It is a "crazy combos" set, like Dark Ages but kinder. This can lead to some frustrating games, but more often it lets players get really experimental with off-the-wall, powerful tactics. The high moments are stratospheric, and overall I think it's an excellent, game-changing expansion. Just don't include it when teaching newcomers!
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Fragasnap

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2016, 06:08:46 pm »
+1

I don't like Adventures.

Far too many cards have arbitrarily large effects to ensure that they get used.

Arbitrarily large to ensure they get used?  Dude, that's the whole point of card testing and balancing.        The only thing I can agree with is Warrior - I really don't understand why there's a "for each Traveller you have in play" clause there.
The problem is power creep. When Adventures cards appear, I don't care about any of the other sets' cards.

Quote
Haunted Woods and Swamp Hag have such large bonuses on your next turn because they do nothing on the turn they are played, which some players think actually makes them weaker than you seem to be suggesting.
I don't think either of these cards are problems, just indicative of the power creep. Compare Tactician, which has you in the majority of cases lose your turn. +3 Cards is seriously close enough, but +3 Cards is necessary or else Haunted Woods would just be the crappy Wharf. (Swamp Hag is actually pretty weak, and oddly turns the player advantage on its head)

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The whole POINT of Treasure Trove is to just flood your deck with Treasures - the decision to have you gain a Gold and a Copper doesn't seem arbitrary at all.
If you aren't relying upon certain cards to collide (like Smithy\Village if you're trying to draw your deck), Treasure Trove is stupidly good. I've bought it on most boards it appears upon (the only one I can immediately think of where I didn't buy it was a board with Fool's Gold). Compare Treasure Trove to cards like Market Square or Tunnel which require you to line up cards to get the Gold, or in the case of Soothsayer or either of the two aforementioned cards, Treasure Trove is actually good the turn you get the Gold in addition to gaining Gold.

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Distant Lands only gives you points if you actually manage to play it, which makes it worse than a Duchy to buy on your last turn.
When you hit $5 after your second shuffle it is likely time to start buying Distant Lands. With 3 Distant Lands on your Tavern Mat (not even in your deck) you have 2 Provinces, so unless the tiny bit of momentum you lose by picking up Distant Lands let another player buy 6 Provinces you are in a wildly better place than a player ignoring Distant Lands. Compare to Island, which is worth a third of a Province rather than two thirds, in a game where one point can make a huge difference.

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Duplicate is able to gain more expensive cards because it's a) slower than other gainers and b) requires that you actually have the funds to buy the card you'd be gaining in the first place.
Except that Duplicate can duplicate duplicated cards which is just silly. There is no better Duchy gainer in Dominion than Duplicate. Having 2 Duplicates on your Tavern mat lets you gain 9VP from a single Duchy purchase, allowing you to effectively have those points without dealing with them in your deck.

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And the bonus tokens actually make less-used cards, such as cheap cantrips, more viable, which actually adds variety to strategies.
Except that the bonus tokens often make cards like Pearl Diver and Pawn so incredibly strong that there is no longer anything else to do on the board, thus reducing strategies.\

Only Page and Gear I think are problems that might be worth banning, but on boards with Adventures cards I find myself not buying cards from other sets because the cards from Adventures are just so good in comparison to everything else.
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faust

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2016, 06:19:03 pm »
+3

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.

Still, it should have gone, "So if you're not cool then Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"

Or simply "So Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?" :P
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jsh357

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2016, 06:25:15 pm »
+8

I deleted a long post meticulously criticizing the entire previous post, but realized it felt kind of mean. I'll settle on just: your issues are likely stemming in large part from the cards being new. You claim your group 'always' goes for the Adventures cards, as if there are no possible ways to play around them. This perception is going to be common until the cards become more uniformly distributed with the rest and the novelty has worn off on them some. Of course your group is buying the cards; they're new, you're probably playing with a higher saturation of Adventures than you would once everything was in full random selection, and you haven't developed the same understanding you likely have of past cards. That's not to say certain cards aren't very powerful, (though I personally think it's hilarious how much people overvalue Gear) but that's not exactly a new thing. Remember when Witch was considered one of the strongest cards with few real counters? People play, people adapt. You are of course within your rights to dislike the expansion for whatever reasons, but I don't trust your claims about power creep on an objective sense.

Oh... and I guess I haven't replied to any of these threads, but I was more interested in what other people had to say than my own thoughts. I guess a quick summary would be: it's more Dominion, and I like all the Dominion expansions. I wouldn't say it's my favorite set (that's Cornucopia or Alchemy) but I like what it brings to the table. Sometimes it makes my brain hurt a little too much, but like I was saying to that guy up there, I have played a LOT of games with heavy Adventures saturation, and the cards are more complex on average, so that makes sense.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 06:36:29 pm by jsh357 »
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2016, 06:41:11 pm »
0

I wouldn't say it's my favorite set (that's Cornucopia or Alchemy)

Really?  That's not something you hear every day.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2016, 06:43:04 pm »
0

I'd be cool if Adventures had a way to modify a card so that when you played that card, you also drew a card in addition to whatever else the card does.

But you wouldn't be cool if Adventures didn't have such a way to modify a card?

A =>B ~=> ~A => ~B

The majority of the joke consisted of pointing out the typo, though.

Still, it should have gone, "So if you're not cool then Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?"

Or simply "So Adventures does not have such a way to modify a card?" :P

Zing!
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Witherweaver

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2016, 06:43:44 pm »
0

Wait there is actually  a +1 Card token, right?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2016, 07:06:46 pm »
0

Wait there is actually  a +1 Card token, right?

See, I didn't quite get your original joke, because Seprix was specifically talking about how with Adventures, you could add the +1 card token to Scout.

Of course what he's missing is that that doesn't make Scout more powerful relative to any other cards, because that +1 card token could have gone on better cards instead.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2016, 08:26:36 pm »
0

Wait there is actually  a +1 Card token, right?

See, I didn't quite get your original joke, because Seprix was specifically talking about how with Adventures, you could add the +1 card token to Scout.

Of course what he's missing is that that doesn't make Scout more powerful relative to any other cards, because that +1 card token could have gone on better cards instead.

Oh, I misread Seprix's post to mean, redesign Scout so that it has +1 Draw.  I didn't realize he was referring to Adventures.

This was a failure on many levels.
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2016, 09:01:58 pm »
+1

I suggest you change your name and move to the other coast, rather than try to face the embarrassment.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2016, 09:16:21 pm »
0

I suggest you change your name and move to the other coast, rather than try to face the embarrassment.

I agree wholeheartedly.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2016, 12:54:32 am »
+2

So, I want to address power creep. I think for the purposes of Dominion power creep can be defined by how often a card is bought and defines a kingdom. For example, Goons is a very powerful card. You buy it almost every game it appears in.

I also think Qvist's rankings is a good way of looking at how powerful an expansion is overall. Obviously, the rankings for Adventures will change a lot next year. But, with that said, Chapel is obviously the best trasher. Mountebank is the best junker. Cultist is close though. Ambassador is the best $3 cost.

Someone said that Adventures increases the power level the same way Seaside did. I think perhaps Events might make this somewhat true. Attack-wise, though, I would say if anything, this set is a decrease power-wise. The attacks are decent, but we have seen nastier stuff. The trashing is good, but, DA offers strong trashing as well and Chapel is still the king of trashing. One area, I do feel Adventures increases the power level is Villages. Overall, Villages are often needed to make engines come to life and with Adventures, I feel, we get the strongest Village ever in Lost Arts. Champion is obviously stronger, but takes a while to get going. We also have Coin of the Realm, a village that we can use when we need it, and hey, it's technically two villages when you call it into play. We have had strong villages in the past with Fishing Village and Wandering Minstrel. Lost Arts is simply better than them. And, once you get Champion going, well, boom. Also, Disciple and Teacher are pretty nice villages as well.

Card draw is also pretty good in this expansion, but not super common. Pathfinding can be the king of card draw if you have a good target for it. Sometimes, though, you might already be drawing your deck, although, pathfinding a card tends to add more reliability. We also have Haunted Woods. It's strong card draw, but not as strong as Wharf.

I think overall, kingdom-wise, the cards are pretty balanced. We do have two power houses with Page and Peasant. But, I would say more than anything, Events are what shake things up the most. Alms guarantees you always have $4 available. Save can do tricks and then we have the token events that modify piles.

I guess the real question to ask ourselves is what would Dominion be like today if Events had existed since the beginning.
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2016, 01:24:46 am »
+4

I guess the real question to ask ourselves is what would Dominion be like today if Events had existed since the beginning.

Cache would be a $5 event that gained a Gold and two Coppers. And there would be much rejoicing! Or is that just me?
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2016, 01:27:18 am »
0

I guess the real question to ask ourselves is what would Dominion be like today if Events had existed since the beginning.

Cache would be a $5 event that gained a Gold and two Coppers. And there would be much rejoicing! Or is that just me?
definitely not
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2016, 03:14:48 am »
+1

Having only known the Dominion world for a couple of months, my first impressions of Adventures should be more reliably compared to my first impressions of the other sets. First and foremost, Adventures adds new layers of complexity. F. ex it wasn't until I tried to Royal Carriage a called Duplicate, I truly grasped the meaning of "resolving an action". Nuances like this hadn't crossed my mind prior to buying adventures.

Secondly, Adventures is way more taxing on a player's attention. I can't count the number of times my friends have forgotten to exchange a traveler, call a Transmogrify at the start of their turn or returning their hand post-transaction with Haunted Woods in play. Personally, I love this aspect. Getting your ducks in a row and executing your turn correctly shouldn't be an autopilot process. It is worth mentioning however, that this somewhat complicates the casual experience. Realizing that your opponent forgot to take curses for four consecutive hag turns really diminishes the fun factor for all parties. Save for the few people strongly disincentivised to continue playing Adventures, these issues luckily dwindle rapidly.

Lastly, I wanted to to give a special mention to two particular cards: Treasure Trove and Gear. When both of them are present in an all Adventures kingdom, we have yet declare a non-BM winner. Perhaps easily attributable to our common lack of experience, but maaan I have to say: That province-per-turn guarantee is ludicrous.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2016, 03:56:36 am »
+1

Regarding power creep...

I'm not convinced that it's present in Adventures, but even if it is, it's worth noting that a lot it isn't simply power in a vacuum.  What I mean is that a lot of Adventures is about enhancing other cards.  It's a lot like how Chapel is extremely powerful, but Chapel in itself isn't a strategy.  Adventures pushes card interactions and opens up strategic possibilities rather than pushing monolithic approaches.  Pathfinding may be great, but you need to pick a card to give the token.  Champion and Teacher are game-changing, but you need a deck that will get you there quickly, and a plan for what you'll do after.  Duplicate may be a powerful way to gain multiple cards from one buy, including a whole slew of Duchies in the late game, but what are you going to do in the meantime?
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Re: Let's Discuss... Adventures!
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2016, 04:15:41 am »
+2

I find the Duplicating Duchy comment kind of funny when HoP already exists. Sure, it costs one more and can't called on, but it is nonterminal and can even gain Provinces, sometimes all in a single turn.
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