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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 355884 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6125 on: December 04, 2023, 02:33:22 pm »

People talk too much about broadcasting delay in chess cheating. You don't need outside help to cheat. You can just put moves into a device you have on you. No one is actually forcing you to take your shoes off, so if you can dodge the scanner (or there is no scanner as in the last tournament that Hans Niemann crushed 8.5/9), then you can just have a device in your shoe. No one will see it if you use your toe to input moves during the game.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6126 on: December 04, 2023, 02:38:16 pm »

One really sad thing is that former world champion Vladimir Kramnik has made it its job to catch cheaters, but unfortunately he's doing a really bad job imo, so it's probably just backfiring overall. He always says that he's working together with statisticians, but what he put out most recently doesn't pass the smell test for my statistical understanding.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6127 on: December 04, 2023, 02:40:07 pm »

Overall it just seems like the entire scene is incompetent to pretty baffling degree. Which I really wouldn't have expected; you'd think chess players a bit more skilled when it comes to what's essentially basic rationality

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6128 on: December 04, 2023, 02:43:49 pm »

yeah, I meant if the agenda is bad. Pushing an agenda is how it can be a problem.

My point is that the agenda is the entire problem. If you replace any other component of the "pro-genocide agenda + depiction of horrible things in art + pushing an agenda in art" combination with something non-problematic, you still have a problem because the pro-genocide agenda still exists, but if you replace the pro-genocide agenda with something non-problematic, the entire problem is gone, hence that is the only component that actually contains any problems.

Publishing copies of Mein Kampf with the intent that people will take it as a cautionary tale is, as far as outcomes are concerned, indistinguishable from publishing it with the intent that people will agree with the message. Having the intent to convince people to agree with Hitler's ideas is in and of itself bad, because presumably it will cause you to try all kinds of things to accomplish that goal, some of which might actually work, and then you would have an actual difference in consequences compared to the publisher who was pushing a sensible agenda instead. The only solution to the problem here is to get rid of Nazis, not to make a thing with identical consequences sometimes fine and sometimes problematic. This principle still applies if we are talking about different works of art that have slightly different consequences due to not being literally identical works, because all else (depiction of horrible things, pushing an agenda, quality of the work and so on) being equal, all the differences are caused by the difference in agenda in and of itself.
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faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6129 on: December 05, 2023, 03:55:06 am »

Publishing copies of Mein Kampf with the intent that people will take it as a cautionary tale is, as far as outcomes are concerned, indistinguishable from publishing it with the intent that people will agree with the message.
Hard disagree. In the former case, the published copy will likely be one with lots of academic commentary, whereas the latter would be the raw text, probably with some racist imagery on the cover.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6130 on: December 05, 2023, 09:56:04 am »

Publishing copies of Mein Kampf with the intent that people will take it as a cautionary tale is, as far as outcomes are concerned, indistinguishable from publishing it with the intent that people will agree with the message.
Hard disagree. In the former case, the published copy will likely be one with lots of academic commentary, whereas the latter would be the raw text, probably with some racist imagery on the cover.

The point of the argument is that the content being published is identical in both cases, e.g. just the raw text without any extra commentary or imagery.
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faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6131 on: December 06, 2023, 03:25:14 am »

Publishing copies of Mein Kampf with the intent that people will take it as a cautionary tale is, as far as outcomes are concerned, indistinguishable from publishing it with the intent that people will agree with the message.
Hard disagree. In the former case, the published copy will likely be one with lots of academic commentary, whereas the latter would be the raw text, probably with some racist imagery on the cover.

The point of the argument is that the content being published is identical in both cases, e.g. just the raw text without any extra commentary or imagery.
Well in this case I would have strong doubts about the intent.

But if someone were stupid enough to do this, I think that is also worth criticising. The agenda is not all that matters, it's also important that whatever you produce is not open to be used for someone else's bad agenda.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6132 on: December 06, 2023, 12:01:23 pm »

yeah, I meant if the agenda is bad. Pushing an agenda is how it can be a problem.

My point is that the agenda is the entire problem. If you replace any other component of the "pro-genocide agenda + depiction of horrible things in art + pushing an agenda in art" combination with something non-problematic, you still have a problem because the pro-genocide agenda still exists, but if you replace the pro-genocide agenda with something non-problematic, the entire problem is gone, hence that is the only component that actually contains any problems.

Yeah I think I agree.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6133 on: December 06, 2023, 12:01:58 pm »

One really sad thing is that former world champion Vladimir Kramnik has made it its job to catch cheaters, but unfortunately he's doing a really bad job imo, so it's probably just backfiring overall. He always says that he's working together with statisticians, but what he put out most recently doesn't pass the smell test for my statistical understanding.

He's actually doing such a bad job that it would make sense if Hans paid him to do this as a false flag operation. He didn't, but it would make sense.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6134 on: December 06, 2023, 12:09:08 pm »

- Accuse Hiarku Nakamura of cheating, which is probably false, but even if it were true, would be strategically stupid
- Do it first without presenting any data, predictably causing lots of backlash while giving no ammunition to your defenders
- Back it up with data that is a) incomplete, and b) doesn't even look bad for Hikaru
- Completely fail to compute the relevant metrics and instead just report performance rating. (This may be the  most baffling point.)
- Don't address any of the obvious relevant concerns with the approach
- Make a petition that people can just sign anonymously, leading to the obvious consequence of everyone trolling it
- World #2 Fabiano Caruana makes an off-hand remark that chess.com ratings aren't accurate and hence the approach doesn't work; write a reply that completely fails to engage with the argument

I'm just so baffled at how poorly he keeps handling this. If I were in his position, the amount by which I would do a better job even without any help is immeasurable. At least immeasurable by Kramnik who clearly doesn't know anything about measurement.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6135 on: December 06, 2023, 12:34:08 pm »

I want to know how he is "working with mathematicians". Are these mathematicians also incompetent, or do they not exist, or is Kramnik just not listening?

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6136 on: December 06, 2023, 02:05:34 pm »

Publishing copies of Mein Kampf with the intent that people will take it as a cautionary tale is, as far as outcomes are concerned, indistinguishable from publishing it with the intent that people will agree with the message.
Hard disagree. In the former case, the published copy will likely be one with lots of academic commentary, whereas the latter would be the raw text, probably with some racist imagery on the cover.

The point of the argument is that the content being published is identical in both cases, e.g. just the raw text without any extra commentary or imagery.
Well in this case I would have strong doubts about the intent.

But if someone were stupid enough to do this, I think that is also worth criticising. The agenda is not all that matters, it's also important that whatever you produce is not open to be used for someone else's bad agenda.

Well, I'll grant that at least somewhat. I don't think that Mein Kampf in particular is super likely to convert people into Nazism, because it is pretty ubiquitously recognized as a book you aren't supposed to agree with. I also think you can pretty safely print e.g. Bibles and collections of Hadith without any extra context, and not have to worry about people starting to support death penalty for homosexuality just because there's a book available that says that; in first world countries, typically even the people who do basically treat it as holy scripture will come up with justifications as to why that part doesn't apply anymore or why it doesn't mean the thing it obviously means, and generally reading those texts is more likely to cause religious people to stop being religious than vice versa.

However, I have read mass shooter manifestos that I actually think could be dangerous if they were widely accessible without additional commentary, while there are also obvious well-intentioned reasons to make them widely accessible. The "treat it as constitutionally protected speech but remove it from social media as a TOS violation" approach we currently actually have probably works acceptably there, but in these cases I do agree that there is potentially a reason to criticize publishing the text not because it is necessarily evil but because it could be stupid.

That principle can also apply to publishing a new original work of art with a message that could be misunderstood, but then again, Hollow has actually been interpreted as being pro-ana by a listener, so I would cut artists a fair amount of slack there.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6137 on: December 06, 2023, 07:14:32 pm »

Achievement Unlocked: put +8 cards on a dominion card.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6138 on: December 07, 2023, 06:22:25 am »

Ok I'm finally getting somewhere with the sequence again. It's exactly progressing very fast, but at least it is now steadily progressing and I again have a clear vision for what I want it to look like. Will I eventually conclude again that this is all wrong and I need to do it differently? I actually think this time the answer could be no!

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6139 on: December 07, 2023, 06:22:31 am »

*not exactly

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6140 on: December 08, 2023, 02:09:48 am »

Quote from: AJD
Reckless Black Cat bug

like this?

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6141 on: December 08, 2023, 12:05:16 pm »

yay go ETH o/

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6142 on: December 11, 2023, 02:13:51 pm »

Apparently the show Sherlock went sharply downhill after the first episode. Which is funny because I only ever watched the first episode, which was awful.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6143 on: December 12, 2023, 10:05:55 am »

Well my request for a grant extension got rejected. This is not surprising; it was surprising that it was accepted the first time, and probably only because they just had so much money at that point (it went in right before the FTX collapse). Then just demanding a 2 year extension on an initial 1 year project is a very big ask. I still had to try because I mean why wouldn't I, but that was the median outcome.

The timing was comically bad, just wanted to commit to a long meditation session and saw the email on my phone right then, but oh well.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6144 on: December 12, 2023, 10:06:29 am »

I'll prove them wrong when I publish the sequence/book. Hopefully.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6145 on: December 12, 2023, 06:10:51 pm »

today was such a weird day

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6146 on: December 13, 2023, 04:30:27 am »

Two of the things I'm thinking about recently (in relation to my work) are visual agnosia and blindsight.

Blindsight is a condition where people report being blind but can solve tasks with obviously above-chance accuracy, e.g., going through a corridor and dodging obstacles. For me, this really isn't that philosophically confusing anymore; visual qualia is just one possible way to deal with visual inputs, and the idea that the brain also does it differently doesn't present any paradox. What exactly can you conclude from this? This is what I'm trying to figure out. But it's almost certainly relevant.

Philosophical commentary on blindsight tends to be dreadful. E.g., Dennett covered it in his book, and his rebuttal of Blindsight's philosophical significance was that if a Blindsight person were to be trained to volunteer guesses as to what they see (which is generally not the case; they don't realize that they have information about objects they see), and if you could slowly close the behavioral gap, then they would eventually claim to see like normal people. He presents no evidence for this, but putting that aside -- I actually agree with it, so evidence isn't the sticking point -- it doesn't show what he think it does. All it shows is that visual qualia is tied to a causal function, which I not only agree with, but which isn't even part of the debate; at that point in the sequence we'll have already established that all qualia are tied to causal functions.

The *difficult* question is whether visual qualia is (a) a certain way of processing visual information or (b) a by-product that hops on whenever you do visual processing of any kind. Dennett's argument does nothing to address this, and from what I've seen so far, neither does any other philosophical commentary. But Blindsight itself is certainly evidence for (a).

Conversely, Visual Agnosia is a condition where people feel like they can see normally but have certain clear deficits. It all seems to come down to the ability to integrate visual information. I sort of imagine it like if you looked at an object, say a glove, then you'd see many little parts of it sequentially rather than the entire thing at once. As a result, such people have difficulty identifying objects even though they see that something is there just fine. But they seem to be able to scan them sequentially and maybe deduce the answer; or they might pick something that resembles the object, like mis-identifying an apple for a small ball.

They're extremely bad with faces, which makes a lot of sense because facial recognition is actually extremely difficult and we just don't notice it because we're all so good at it. I think they generally can't even recognize themselves in a photograph, and they certainly can't tell whether someone is male or female. One case report said that the only person that the patient was able to identify among pictures on his wall was Albert Einstein because some feature of his hair or mustache gave it away.

If we differentiate between seeing, which is the part with visual qualia, and recognizing, which is the symbolic part where the brain determines the existence of objects, then Blindsight seems like (very limited) recognition without seeing, and agnosia seems like... seeing with limited recognizing? Seeing with zero recognizing? I'm not sure yet. It's still confusing to me to what extent seeing does things that aren't ultimately about recognition. Maybe they are ultimately about recognition, and it's more like that the brain builds this elaborate data structure to then do more efficient recognition based on that, as supposed to e.g. an image classifier based on a neural network, which does only recognition. In particular, a neural network moves to progressively more abstract representations every step and doesn't keep the pixel-based representation around.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6147 on: December 13, 2023, 04:31:35 am »

Actually (b) should be more accurately/charitably phrased as "a secondary way to view visual processing of any kind" since we're already past the by-product stage. But the point remains that it's about whether only specific kinds of processing have qualia, or all processing.

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6148 on: December 13, 2023, 05:54:29 am »

Blindsight is a condition where people report being blind but can solve tasks with obviously above-chance accuracy, e.g., going through a corridor and dodging obstacles.

Does this apply to tasks that you can't solve with your senses other than vision? Your footsteps would echo in the corridor, so a person who has been blind for some time and primarily relying on their hearing (and thus practicing extracting the maximum amount of information possible from the sound they're hearing) should be able to tell where obstacles are based on the reverberations. Even I can do that to some extent if I blindfold myself, although not with as much precision as blind people typically can.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6149 on: December 13, 2023, 06:01:29 am »

Yeah; there's also been experiments with people grabbing objects you hold somewhere in front of them. No way you could do that with sound.
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