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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 356084 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3950 on: July 08, 2022, 01:56:01 pm »

Well there is a straight-forward way to test that: see if babies from cultures that like non-harmonious music also prefer harmonic chords. I strongly expect that they do.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3951 on: July 08, 2022, 02:00:26 pm »

But I don't know why you would expect inherent effects to be absent. Even if we are maximally generous and take at face value that many cultures don't care about harmony, the overall evidence still favors harmony because the cultures that don't care (at least according to the article you linked) were at most indifferent toward harmony and dissonance. If the preference were arbitrary, there ought to be as many cultures that actively prefer disharmony.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3952 on: July 08, 2022, 05:51:41 pm »

But I don't know why you would expect inherent effects to be absent. Even if we are maximally generous and take at face value that many cultures don't care about harmony, the overall evidence still favors harmony because the cultures that don't care (at least according to the article you linked) were at most indifferent toward harmony and dissonance. If the preference were arbitrary, there ought to be as many cultures that actively prefer disharmony.

I'm still not satisfied with the claim that there are multiple cultures with a preference towards harmony [the way harmony is understood in western classical music theory] and no cultures with a preference towards dissonance [the way dissonance is understood in western classical music theory]. Extreme metal is very dissonant on purpose and while that is only a subculture, it is one that is pretty vigorous pretty much everywhere in the world. Jazz was the most popular genre in the developed world for a while and remained very popular for a while longer, and the sense of harmony in jazz is completely different from western classical music (i.e. judging by western classical music standards, it is very dissonant). Ultra Bra was an insanely popular pop band in Finland for the very brief period during which they were active, to the extent that with only four albums released they're still one of the top 20 best-selling Finnish bands of all time in Finland and the lyricist went on to become a MP and later a minister and the chairperson of her party with her momentum from the band — and they sounded like this.

There are countless of cultures across the world whose traditional music is dissonant to a degree that would be highly unusual in western classical music, like Japan, Tunisia, Turkey, basically as soon as you get away from the immediate influence of Central/Western European music tradition, you start running into stuff that sounds pretty spicy not just as a way to make certain parts of the song more dramatic, but all the time as a default setting. Even Eastern European music is somewhat like that, although it has more of a resemblance to western classical music than e.g. these three examples.

And the important thing here is that the distinction between harmony and dissonance is itself cultural. If I come up with an example song that conforms to western music rules and a different example that breaks those rules and then ask someone from an isolated hunter-gatherer tribe to rate them both, it might very well be the case that the hunter-gatherer prefers the song that conforms to some rules over the song that doesn't conform to any rules at all, but this does jackShiT to demonstrate that these rules in particular are superior to all the other ones that exist, none of which were included in the experiment.

At this point, we probably also need to address the elephant in the room, that is, white supremacism. Most of the early writing (academic and otherwise) on the objective qualities of music was specifically written to show that the music of white people was better than other music. Even nowadays, a lot of it still secretly has that same hypothesis going on in the background even if they don't say it out loud anymore (and some may not even consciously realize it themselves). There is a publishing bias against studies and articles that contradict the idea that there is something uniquely profound about western classical music. There's a great video by Adam Neely that delves a lot deeper into this, but in summary, there is a thinner line than you might think between looking for objective ways to determine music quality while taking for granted the assumption that the things western classical music does are obviously good, and race realism.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3953 on: July 08, 2022, 06:15:19 pm »

I just read some news to learn that my prediction wrt Twitter not getting much different as a result of Elon Musk buying it was correct: https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musk-terminating-twitter-deal-2022-07-08/
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3954 on: July 08, 2022, 07:20:02 pm »

Well, I don't give a crap about whether harmony is a western idea. I suspect that harmony is pleasant for reasons that predate culture or even humanity. I predict that it's appealing to animals. I would even predict that it's appealing to aliens. I think it's insanely ultra fundamental, like literally tapping into core features of the underlying math of consciousness. (With some caveats.) So if some people throughout history were saying vaguely similar things for different reasons, so be it.

If you did convince me that harmony doesn't matter, that would actually be quite important. It wouldn't totally change my views, but it'd do a bunch.

For the object level stuff, I'm skeptical about the dissonant music you speak of (though I'm open to listen to some of it) because I have the suspicion that it's a bunch of dissonance mixed into a largely harmonic structure, and if you analyze the entire song, it's still mostly harmonic.

Quote
And the important thing here is that the distinction between harmony and dissonance is itself cultural. If I come up with an example song that conforms to western music rules and a different example that breaks those rules and then ask someone from an isolated hunter-gatherer tribe to rate them both, it might very well be the case that the hunter-gatherer prefers the song that conforms to some rules over the song that doesn't conform to any rules at all, but this does jackShiT to demonstrate that these rules in particular are superior to all the other ones that exist, none of which were included in the experiment.


I really have to look into measurements, which I haven't done yet. Until then I'm not really qualified to comment.

It still seems to me that the most relevant data is about whether infants of all cultures prefer harmonic chords. Also curious about animals. Gonna ask around on the next slatestarcodex open thread for pointers.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3955 on: July 08, 2022, 07:20:47 pm »

I just read some news to learn that my prediction wrt Twitter not getting much different as a result of Elon Musk buying it was correct: https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musk-terminating-twitter-deal-2022-07-08/

did we phrase the bet such that you win if Musk doesn't even acquire twitter?

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3956 on: July 08, 2022, 07:21:56 pm »

Also for the record I think this conversation has no bearing on the philosophical and and also no bearing on  the meta point about how much to trust studies.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3957 on: July 08, 2022, 08:28:20 pm »

I just read some news to learn that my prediction wrt Twitter not getting much different as a result of Elon Musk buying it was correct: https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musk-terminating-twitter-deal-2022-07-08/

did we phrase the bet such that you win if Musk doesn't even acquire twitter?

We phrased it "on 2023-04-26, a neutral judge will deem Elon Musk's ownership of Twitter to have caused an increase in the quality of the user experience on Twitter or prevented a decline of such", but you agreed to that phrasing only on the condition that we can agree on a judge, which we couldn't because nobody wanted to do it, so I believe the bet is not on. But if it was, then I believe I should win, unless the neutral judge turned out to be highly unreliable.
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3958 on: July 08, 2022, 09:39:29 pm »

Well, I don't give a crap about whether harmony is a western idea. I suspect that harmony is pleasant for reasons that predate culture or even humanity. I predict that it's appealing to animals. I would even predict that it's appealing to aliens. I think it's insanely ultra fundamental, like literally tapping into core features of the underlying math of consciousness. (With some caveats.) So if some people throughout history were saying vaguely similar things for different reasons, so be it.

If you did convince me that harmony doesn't matter, that would actually be quite important. It wouldn't totally change my views, but it'd do a bunch.

For the object level stuff, I'm skeptical about the dissonant music you speak of (though I'm open to listen to some of it) because I have the suspicion that it's a bunch of dissonance mixed into a largely harmonic structure, and if you analyze the entire song, it's still mostly harmonic.

Consider the Japanese insen scale, for example. You can't play a major chord or a minor chord on the root note at all, but on the other hand, the 5addb2 chord is one of your two options that you can play if you want to play a triad on the root note, and in this style, it sounds perfectly natural to actually play it too (the other option is a sus4 chord, which in western classical music is extremely heavily expected to resolve to either a major or a minor chord to be considered harmonically correct, but it obviously can't do that here because those chords are not available). Why the 5addb2 chord is particularly noteworthy is because it's actually the "dissonant chord" from the Finnish study that you linked. It's not just a case of mixing a bunch of dissonance into a largely harmonic structure, it's a structure that hardly allows anything that is considered harmony in western classical music, and of course Japanese people play entire songs using just this scale.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3959 on: July 09, 2022, 04:42:29 am »

The problem here is the lack of a scale for dissonance. Are insen chords dissonant, or are they very consonant as supposed to extremely consonant? I suspect the latter is more true. They sound harmonic enough to me. Dissonance is if someone who can't play picks up the violin.

Unfortunately, mainstream wisdom doesn't seem to go beyond "small integer ratios are harmonic". Well thanks dude. That doesn't answer anything; I'd bet any amount of money that a ratio of 288172993915332718882937 to 576345987830665437765875 sounds highly harmonic. What we need is a function that takes arbitrary real numbers as input and is continuous in the argument (or both arguments, if just taking the ratio isn't enough).

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3960 on: July 09, 2022, 05:33:18 am »

Apparently, the German Bundestag decided to rely more on coal in order to avoid nuclear power. If accurate, this is extremely stupid.

Also, I actually liked Habeck, so this is disappointing. Unless again the headline is misleading.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3961 on: July 09, 2022, 08:31:40 am »

Apparently, the German Bundestag decided to rely more on coal in order to avoid nuclear power. If accurate, this is extremely stupid.

Also, I actually liked Habeck, so this is disappointing. Unless again the headline is misleading.
I mean, it's bad, but it's not like nuclear power would offer a short-term solution from what I've heard, and that's what people are looking for.

Of course the better solution is to cut energy usage, but this government likes to pretend like the climate crisis can be solved without that.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3962 on: July 09, 2022, 01:03:54 pm »

The problem here is the lack of a scale for dissonance. Are insen chords dissonant, or are they very consonant as supposed to extremely consonant? I suspect the latter is more true. They sound harmonic enough to me. Dissonance is if someone who can't play picks up the violin.

Unfortunately, mainstream wisdom doesn't seem to go beyond "small integer ratios are harmonic". Well thanks dude. That doesn't answer anything; I'd bet any amount of money that a ratio of 288172993915332718882937 to 576345987830665437765875 sounds highly harmonic. What we need is a function that takes arbitrary real numbers as input and is continuous in the argument (or both arguments, if just taking the ratio isn't enough).

I think what you might be after is something like "dissonance = difference in cents to the closest reasonably small integer ratio", but the obvious problem is that you would have to have a universally agreed upon definition of "reasonably small" and that is never going to exist, and there are some less obvious problems too, like the fact that the by far most popular tuning system in the world, i.e. 12-tone equal temperament, does a pretty disappointing job, and something like vibrato is considered beautiful in many different cultures (independently) even though it involves making the pitch very inaccurate and something like Auto-Tune is considered ugly by practically everyone who ever voices an opinion on it even though it involves making the pitch maximally accurate (and even though I am generally in favor of digitally tuning everything and don't consider it "cheating" or anything like that, even I would say that the sharp, robotic sounding snapped-to-grid effect sounds actively bad and should be only ever used as a temporary effect in small amounts in the genres where that's acceptable and probably not at all in most genres).

I guess a relevant question would be: do you consider just intonation to be more harmonic than 12-tone equal temperament?
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3963 on: July 09, 2022, 01:36:41 pm »

The problem here is the lack of a scale for dissonance. Are insen chords dissonant, or are they very consonant as supposed to extremely consonant? I suspect the latter is more true. They sound harmonic enough to me. Dissonance is if someone who can't play picks up the violin.

Unfortunately, mainstream wisdom doesn't seem to go beyond "small integer ratios are harmonic". Well thanks dude. That doesn't answer anything; I'd bet any amount of money that a ratio of 288172993915332718882937 to 576345987830665437765875 sounds highly harmonic. What we need is a function that takes arbitrary real numbers as input and is continuous in the argument (or both arguments, if just taking the ratio isn't enough).

I think what you might be after is something like "dissonance = difference in cents to the closest reasonably small integer ratio", but the obvious problem is that you would have to have a universally agreed upon definition of "reasonably small" and that is never going to exist

Yeah, the metric isn't obvious for these reasons, which is of course why I haven't found a formula so far. (Which was a surprise, I went into the whole thing assuming the problem easier).

But that doesn't mean there can't be a metric. It's just not going to be a simple metric. When I'm thinking about this problem, I'd start with a metric that measures how simple an integer pair is*, and then I'd try an infinite sum that considers the distance to every integer pair, weighted by inverse distance. You should be able to get that to converge.

* I have found a formula for that, I think it was (x:y) = P(x) * P(y) where P(x) = 1+ prod (p_i - 1), where the p_i are the prime decomposition of x. So for example, (2:3) would be P(2) * P(3) = (1 + (2-1)) * (1 + (3-1)).

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3964 on: July 09, 2022, 01:39:35 pm »

There must be someone who has proposed something that I just haven't found yet.

But there may also be a more fundamental thing rather than just trying to make up operations that make sense. Like, if you let a surface with sand on it vibrate with a certain frequency, it builds geometric patterns. So measuring the shape of that pattern could be exactly right?

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3965 on: July 09, 2022, 01:40:43 pm »

I guess a relevant question would be: do you consider just intonation to be more harmonic than 12-tone equal temperament?

No clue. I actually don't have particularly granular hearing

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3966 on: July 09, 2022, 01:43:48 pm »

Relevant:

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3967 on: July 10, 2022, 03:02:50 pm »

Taking a day off, listening to harry potter 5. It's better than 3! But still, the entire dementor attack only works because Dumbledore had harry guarded by someone who's infamously unreliable. That's a pretty substantial plot hole. Why would you have a small scale criminal guard the most important person on your side, and then also pay him little enough to make him an easy target? He had more than enough resources to let someone competent do the job.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3968 on: July 10, 2022, 03:03:04 pm »

Never noticed stuff like this before

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3969 on: July 10, 2022, 03:04:03 pm »

The fact that Umbridge sent them is a great idea thoug

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3970 on: July 10, 2022, 03:15:06 pm »

Taking a day off, listening to harry potter 5. It's better than 3! But still, the entire dementor attack only works because Dumbledore had harry guarded by someone who's infamously unreliable. That's a pretty substantial plot hole. Why would you have a small scale criminal guard the most important person on your side, and then also pay him little enough to make him an easy target? He had more than enough resources to let someone competent do the job.

Not that I have any particular desire to defend JK's writing, but isn't that entirely in-character for Dumbledore? Like, obviously it's not a good idea, but it's not the only time he has done something that is obviously not a good idea.
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3971 on: July 10, 2022, 05:46:39 pm »

that's a funny take and kind of true. But I don't think that's intentional? Like Dumbledore is supposed to be brilliant

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3972 on: July 10, 2022, 06:14:35 pm »

that's a funny take and kind of true. But I don't think that's intentional? Like Dumbledore is supposed to be brilliant

I feel like it is probably intentional. He pretty consistently has a low threshold for trusting people that everyone else would consider at best insufficiently trustworthy, and he kind of takes it for granted that love and courage will conquer in the end, so putting at least a nominal effort into making sure that there's any chance of that happening is good enough. The only reason why he's brilliant is that his bullShiT somehow works out all the time. Also I could be mixing it up with HPMOR, but weren't there also a lot of times when other characters like Moody and some of the other more competent good guys and maybe also Voldemort point out that Dumbledore's way of doing things seems obviously foolish? I don't think it's something JK did by accident.

I mean, clearly the reason for it is that there needs to be exciting scenes in the books, which requires some things going wrong, but then everything also needs to turn out fine in the end, so the guy who sets everything up needs to simultaneously neglect considering risks that reasonable people would have considered but also be smarter than everyone else. Giving him this very counterintuitive kind of "wisdom" that makes no sense to any of the other characters or the reader but somehow outputs good results anyway is the obvious solution to that.
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3973 on: July 10, 2022, 06:16:05 pm »

Also, Gandalf is somewhat like that too. Dumbledore is just a way more extreme case of it.
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #3974 on: July 10, 2022, 06:43:32 pm »

Also I could be mixing it up with HPMOR, but weren't there also a lot of times when other characters like Moody and some of the other more competent good guys and maybe also Voldemort point out that Dumbledore's way of doing things seems obviously foolish?

I think it doesn't happen in regular harry potter, and in hpmor, dumbledore is genuinely brilliant (although less so than harry) and playing 3d chess. Like actually playing 3d chess, not ironically. He does many things that seem insane, and then a bunch of them are secretly smart while another bunch are genuinely insane, and that makes it hard to figure out what he's doing.

Quote
I mean, clearly the reason for it is that there needs to be exciting scenes in the books, which requires some things going wrong, but then everything also needs to turn out fine in the end, so the guy who sets everything up needs to simultaneously neglect considering risks that reasonable people would have considered but also be smarter than everyone else. Giving him this very counterintuitive kind of "wisdom" that makes no sense to any of the other characters or the reader but somehow outputs good results anyway is the obvious solution to that.

I agree with that as a description of how the books work, but I don't think rowling would admit that.

Also, it's implied that Dumbledore was intentionally letting harry do hard things in books 1-3 -- he says something like that at the end of book 5 -- but I don't think it still applies at book 5.

Though I admit that there is more of a case here than I realized
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