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AdamH

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Accountability
« on: February 14, 2016, 05:25:34 pm »
+8

I've waited a little bit to post this, but I feel that the League moderators have taken some actions that are inappropriate enough that the community should be made aware of them.

A couple of weeks ago I received a PM from a moderator stating that some of the contenders in the A division were not willing to cooperate with me to broadcast the champion match this season (this was when there were several games left to be played in the A division). It said the moderators discussed it and decided that I should not commentate any champion matches until the conflicts were resolved. I was not told what the conflicts were or who they were with, and after asking several times for this information I have still not been told.

I replied to all of the moderators asking for clarification on the situation, but also stating that this decision as presented to me was inappropriate -- people playing in the league should not have the authority to decide who gets to commentate (or not commentate) matches without the consent of the community, and this decision sets a dangerous precedent. If the players do not wish to cooperate, nobody is forcing them to have the match broadcast (actually nobody is even forcing them to play the match at all) so the decision should be to not have a broadcast. I also mentioned that in no other "E-sport" or game that receives commentary would this behavior be acceptable -- players in a high-profile tournament just don't enter if they don't like the commentators that much. Obviously Dominion is different but this was one of many reasons I gave against their decision. Another reason I gave is that I have worked for over a year, more than anyone else towards making good commentary for these broadcasts, and every indication the community has given shows that they want to see me continue that work -- this decision attempts to throw away all of that work when other options exist that don't do this.

For the record, I don't feel like I have to commentate every match (I'd actually like to not have that pressure, and I'd like for more people to make an effort to get involved, as seen by my work in some of those threads I've linked). Being shut out of the process entirely for seemingly no good reason is what I have an issue with. Maybe there is a good reason, but I'm not being told the whole story here so I don't know what it is.

When I got a response, none of my concerns or questions were answered. I was told that due to my posts in other areas of the forum, I should no longer consider myself a representative of the community. I also received several personal insults from multiple League moderators. Regardless of who is "right" or "wrong" or whatever about this particular issue, this behavior is completely unacceptable from anyone in a position of authority.

Full disclosure: the only actual argument I could get from any of these PMs was that maybe the community doesn't want to see me commentate matches anymore. That's one of the reasons I made the most recent poll about this topic (though there were others). After the poll's results were clear, I sent one last PM asking them to change their decision, which they did not.

I feel that I have no choice but to tell the community that this has happened -- the League moderators have taken a course of action that is completely inappropriate in several ways. I know that I can never be comfortable participating in any part in anything moderated by anyone from this group of moderators: yes, I can only speculate what their reasons are for this (I wasn't told anything more what I've mentioned here, plus personal insults); but regardless of what those reasons are, the actions they have taken are so reprehensible that these reasons seem irrelevant -- there's no excuse for dismissing my valid concerns with personal insults via PM.

Perhaps the League moderators will be compelled to justify what they've done to the community now that I'm trying to hold them accountable for their actions? I will not allow the moderators to treat people the way they have treated me (and others in the past, btw) behind closed doors and not be held accountable to the community for what they say and do. The League can only succeed with the support of the community, and that community should be fully informed of what is happening, however ugly it may be.

What do I think should be done? Well Stef has made it clear that the moderators of the League will have complete authority over anything that happens in the League, and I doubt any of them would step down based on the PMs I've received. But people seem to like the constant competitive play that the nature of the League offers them.

In this case, it seems the best course of action would be for the league to be dissolved (by people not playing in it anymore. Yeah that seems pretty ambitious, but it seems like that has to happen in order to stop things like this from happening again) and for another method of competitive Dominion to take its place. None of the moderators of this new thing should be current League moderators. The format and moderators should be chosen by the community (maybe another League, who knows?), and the workings of this new thing should be completely transparent. I would rather not be the one to put it together to avoid potential conflict of interest, since I'm unfortunately the one who got stuck in the position of having to out the behavior of the current League moderation, but I am capable of moderating tournaments and would be willing to do so if called upon.
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markusin

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2016, 05:46:21 pm »
+4

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2016, 06:01:40 pm »
+1

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?

I don't know the answer to this question, though SCSN seems like a perfectly reasonable choice. And I don't think anyone would disagree that if DXV wants to commentate then he should be able to pretty much whenever/however he wants -- I really enjoyed hearing him. <3
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2016, 06:13:11 pm »
0

Is it possible that they already had the current #1 player (SCSN) and the creator of the game (DXV) lined up to commentate, and that's why they didn't need you this time around?

As for Accountability, you've kind of just dragged the names of some or all of the league moderators through the mud, without anything to really back it up.  For the record, I'm not suggesting that the PM's made public, because they shouldn't be.
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AdamH

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2016, 06:18:46 pm »
+1

I'm not terribly concerned with the fact that I couldn't commentate this one champion match. I mean, yes my feelings are excessively hurt because there are few things I would have liked more in this world than to commentate with DXV, and I feel like I deserve it. But the core of my problem is not the result, but how it was handled -- namely that I've been completely shut out of the process the way I was.

It's a touchy situation, and just copy/pasting the PMs here in their entirety doesn't seem like a good thing to do. If something comes into question I'm glad to post relevant parts. On the other hand, I'm willing to stake my reputation with this community on the fact that I'm not being misleading here. I really don't want to do this because I realize the gravity of what I'm saying, but I don't have a choice. I've been forced into this situation and I'm not going to just lay down and take it.

Oh, I see this topic has been moved. Can someone please tell me how this isn't a clear abuse of Stef's moderator privileges on that board? That was completely inappropriate. I have already reported it and asked for it to be moved back.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2016, 06:22:39 pm »
+23

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?
I know at least part of this one.

Stef asked me if I was interesting in commentating. I said sure. He said I should have someone with me, did I have an opinion there. I said well, someone with experience with commentating who would have things to talk about. He suggested four people; WW up front, then Adam (noting that they'd had some kind of argument but still being willing to have him), SCSN and jsh357. My first pick was SCSN, who said yes.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2016, 06:45:22 pm »
+2

Adam, I am truly lost here. I honestly have no clue how to deal with you. Whatever I do, you manage to give it a negative spin.

As for accountability, feel free to make any PMs I ever sent you public, and by all means do include the PMs you're sending yourself.

Please also note that I don't actually want you to do that. It's not a path I believe in, it's not something I've ever seen work out nicely. But I do prefer it over your claims about personal insults. I didn't do that, I wouldn't, and I still won't.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2016, 06:46:38 pm »
0

Dissolving the league seems unlikely, if not impossible.

I wouldn't be suprised if none of the moderators in questions respond to this thread. Realistically, it can probably just be ignored by them and it will eventually go away.

EDIT: I didn't see the post before mine.
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AdamH

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2016, 06:51:40 pm »
0

If making the PMs public is the only thing, then I'll do it. I'm not convinced that's necessary yet. I have nothing to hide. The problem is that some of the things that I originally thought were personal insults (not made by Stef, but a different moderator) turned out to just be a language barrier issue that was handled maturely. It seems really inappropriate to include that part of the conversations, but it's difficult to cleanly remove that. It's a messy situation.

On the other hand, you (PPE: Stef) are the one who moved this topic from a place where it actually belongs to a place where people can't see it unless they have an account. These are the actions of someone who has something to hide.

Dissolving the league seems unlikely, if not impossible.

I wouldn't be suprised if none of the moderators in questions respond to this thread. Realistically, it can probably just be ignored by them and it will eventually go away.

No, this is completely unacceptable. The actions of the league moderators are unacceptable and to sweep it under the rug is not an option. I will not accept that, and I will not accept the way I was treated. If people don't care enough, then there's not much more I can do about it, but I will not let the reason people don't know about what is going on be because I didn't do everything I could to bring it to their attention.

I'd like to think this is a community that isn't so willing to bury its head in the sand in spite of a clear problem.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2016, 06:56:43 pm »
0


Dissolving the league seems unlikely, if not impossible.

I wouldn't be suprised if none of the moderators in questions respond to this thread. Realistically, it can probably just be ignored by them and it will eventually go away.

No, this is completely unacceptable. The actions of the league moderators are unacceptable and to sweep it under the rug is not an option. I will not accept that, and I will not accept the way I was treated. If people don't care enough, then there's not much more I can do about it, but I will not let the reason people don't know about what is going on be because I didn't do everything I could to bring it to their attention.

I'd like to think this is a community that isn't so willing to bury its head in the sand in spite of a clear problem.
I'm not trying to say this isn't a big deal, I'm trying to be realistic. A lot of people in the league seem to never post on the forum, they just have an account here to post results and to /in to the league. I probably won't play in Season 14, sure, but getting everyone to leave the league is just a huge, seemingly impossible idea. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just can't see anything big happening.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2016, 06:57:20 pm »
+1

For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?
I know at least part of this one.

Stef asked me if I was interesting in commentating. I said sure. He said I should have someone with me, did I have an opinion there. I said well, someone with experience with commentating who would have things to talk about. He suggested four people; WW up front, then Adam (noting that they'd had some kind of argument but still being willing to have him), SCSN and jsh357. My first pick was SCSN, who said yes.

Well, that's quite informative. Thank you.

So, there are no explicit rules about who gets to commentate a championship match, or that a championship match should even be commentated (at least not that I found). It doesn't seem like playing it by ear has led to problems in the past. Indeed, even AdamH admits that he isn't opposed to the outcome reached this season. I don't either.

The problem seems to be how AdamH feels he has been treated by the moderators. Well, I don't know what you are supposed to do in that situation besides expressing disapproval, which AdamH has done strongly.

I really don't want PMs to be revealed. I don't have much more to say about this topic at this time.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2016, 07:00:13 pm »
+1

I don't see the problem with revealing PMs. It's better than just describing their content for sure, because it's objective.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2016, 07:07:19 pm »
0

I don't see the problem with revealing PMs. It's better than just describing their content for sure, because it's objective.

Well revealing PMs defies the spirit of PMs, but yeah they can be revealed if there is good reason to.

In this case, I worry that it will result in a flame war about how the PMs should be interpreted.

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 07:11:55 pm by markusin »
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2016, 07:23:47 pm »
0

I don't feel that I can contribute effectively to this discussion.  However, I think it is one that is likely to impact the whole community, not just those who actively follow the league. For that reason I'd like to keep an eye on this thread, so, /tag.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2016, 07:26:28 pm »
0

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2016, 07:27:48 pm »
0

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2016, 07:32:17 pm »
+2

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.
So RSP seems a weird place for this thread- it seems directly related to Dominion League, so why shouldn't it be on that board?
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2016, 07:33:12 pm »
+1

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.
So RSP seems a weird place for this thread- it seems directly related to Dominion League, so why shouldn't it be on that board?
Stef moved it.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2016, 07:34:30 pm »
+1

I think Stef is definitely not trying to hide anything and the tone you (Adam) are using is rather condescending ("this is completely unacceptable" is something middle school teachers say).

On the other hand, "none of my concerns or questions were answered" is in fact pretty bad, and I don't think the personal bias a lot of the top people here have against AdamH should get in the way of the metaphorical due process.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2016, 07:39:44 pm »
+1

I think the league organizers can do whatever they wish with their league. People are free not to participate if they don't like something.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2016, 07:44:30 pm »
+1

Edit: About the topic being moved to RSP. I don't think it's fair to assume this was done as a sort of cover-up conspiracy by Stef. It could also be that Stef could immediately tell this was going to result in a very subjective and heated debate, and so to be meta moved it to where such discussions are often found. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Only Stef can answer this question.

Even if you're completely right and that meant it should be moved, of all places, here (which I disagree with); it should have only been moved after that happened.

And I'm serious about what I'm saying; abuse of moderator powers in order to "be meta" seems completely inappropriate.

It seems what Adam wants is to explain why there was a conflict in the first place. This is totally fair. Making a big deal about this does not seem like a very good idea though.

I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but I feel that I was left with no other option. I don't like that this is happening any more than anyone else.
So RSP seems a weird place for this thread- it seems directly related to Dominion League, so why shouldn't it be on that board?
Stef moved it.
And my point was, I disagree with the move.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2016, 07:47:34 pm »
+8

Adam, first of all I want to let you know that I think you are a hugely valuable member of the community.  Often, when I am reading a thread I think to myself, "Self, AdamH is the only one in this thread I agree with." 

This whole thing feels like a re-occurrence of the Wandering Winder dispute with league moderators (Stef?).  I'll share my opinion this time, which was pretty much my unshared opinion at that time.

The league is NOT a democracy, a representation of community wishes, an official anything.  It is a creation of Stef.  You can dislike the way he runs it.  You can leave the league.  You can create, or encourage others to create, an alternative run more in the way you feel like it should be run (which, I imagine would be more community input centric).  You can demand that the league moderators change.  But that's about the limits of what you can do.  There is no greater organizing body of Dominion. 

In this specific instance I am, unusually, not particularly sympathetic to your arguments although I do feel really badly that your feelings were hurt and that you weren't treated in a way you would have liked to have been.

If one or more the people in the championship match don't want you to commentate, I honestly think that should be that.  I don't really think you have any grounds to argue with their decision, and it doesn't actually matter why they feel that way.  In fact, I think it's somewhat rude to try to force them to give you reasons.  They shouldn't have to and it puts them in an uncomfortable situation.
You can appeal to them that the community would appreciate it, but when it comes down to it I think you have to respect their decision.

Anyway, again, I really appreciate your varied contributions to the community and hope you continue to do so.  I really like your views on a lot of topics, I just don't happen to agree with you here, although I am sorry if you felt treated unjustly :-(
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2016, 08:20:48 pm »
+5

In this case, it seems the best course of action would be for the league to be dissolved (by people not playing in it anymore. Yeah that seems pretty ambitious, but it seems like that has to happen in order to stop things like this from happening again) and for another method of competitive Dominion to take its place. None of the moderators of this new thing should be current League moderators. The format and moderators should be chosen by the community (maybe another League, who knows?), and the workings of this new thing should be completely transparent. I would rather not be the one to put it together to avoid potential conflict of interest, since I'm unfortunately the one who got stuck in the position of having to out the behavior of the current League moderation, but I am capable of moderating tournaments and would be willing to do so if called upon.

Let's put the entire nature of the disagreement over whether or not you should commentate or whether or not you and the mods have beef aside for a minute. I'm sure there's some legitimate points in there from some angle, blah blah blah, people should be nicer or something, blah blah, sometimes two rational agents just don't get along...

You want to dissolve the only consistent competitive online Dominion circuit because they picked someone else to do commentary once? Jesus dude, grow up. I know commentary is something you care about and is important to you, but League is also important to the (other) people who run it and play in it. Ultimately, if the League is still running and is still fair to at least all of its participants (in the playing matches sense), there's no reason to encourage everyone to quit because of a decision over who talks over 1 of the hundreds of matches played each month.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 08:23:03 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2016, 08:39:26 pm »
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AdamH is definitely one of the people who I respect the most, and I'm disappointed to see that he feels he's been deeply wronged.

Fundamentally, I agree that the League is not a democracy, and Stef and moderators can do whatever they want (including moving this discussion).

This means that if people don't want Adam to commentate, then it seems reasonable for the mods to ask him not to commentate. That said, I think asking why is a perfectly reasonable question.

If you have an issue with moderators, then don't participate - simples. I guess a rival league might work, it has in many sports,  but unless someone sets it up, then we're going to have to stick with what we got.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2016, 08:55:03 pm »
+7

Is Dominion now sexy or is Dominion the new religion?
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