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[Awaclus]

For those of you who might not have been following the game and its speccy, this is an issue that arose in Mafia 74: X-Shots 2: Apocalypse Now!. Basically, the issue in that game was that all players had individual QTs and they were freely allowed to quote those QTs in the main thread.

The problem with this is that a townie who likes to use a QT for the purpose of "thinking out loud" can just post the entirety of his QT's contents to the main thread and instantly have a believable town narrative. Meanwhile, scum is essentially required to maintain a fake QT per each possible fake claim they might want to do at some point in the game in order to play optimally. That is a ton of effort that they have to put in, most of which will end up being completely irrelevant because you'll only ever post one of those QTs, and I believe that doing it will just feel like an annoyance, not like the kind of rewarding work that playing Mafia usually involves.

The issue is not limited to QTs, though. Most (presumably all, but I haven't actually checked it) Mafia games so far have not forbidden creating a Word document to keep track of your thoughts during the game or copypasting its contents into the main thread, it just wasn't a thing that people did.

My proposed solution is to extend the "Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay." rule or its equivalent to include quoting of anything outside the main thread. I think that the "Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread." rule already technically prohibits creating your own QT (or other similar "private" web page) and then just linking that in the main thread. As far as I can tell, this solution doesn't prevent you from doing anything non-QT issue related that you might actually want to do in a Mafia game. The "problem" with this solution is that you can still keep a Word document and paste everything from it because nobody can tell the difference, but that's not really a problem since you still have to claim that you have paraphrased your text, and as long as the other players are under the impression that you actually paraphrased it, you won't gain an unfair advantage over someone who just fabricates the entire thing on the spot.

Thoughts?

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm doing this anyway, regardless of rules.

[Awaclus]

I'm doing this anyway, regardless of rules.

You're doing what?

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm doing this anyway, regardless of rules.

You're doing what?

If I ever mod a game I'm implementing this rule, and I already refuse to quote from a QT.

[Teproc]

I'll link to the the X-Shots speccy, because a lot of this discussion already happened there.

Obviously up to the mods' discretion, but I think I will favor games that forbid QT quoting from now on.

[Teproc]

So, I agree with your proposed solution, as I said in the X-shots speccy.

[silverspawn]

As you know, I of course agree, but I want to elaborate a bit on what the problem is, because I'm not sure your OP makes it clear (and I've read a couple of arguments that miss the point).

Suppose you are someone who posts a lot in QTs. Now let's suppose you start a game and roll scum. And then let's suppose you do not start multiple QTs or prepare in any other way.

Here is why that will get you lynched

At day 4 in the game, town will request that every player post the entirety of his QT in the thread. Now, what do you do?

- Refuse - will get you lynched
- Claim you happen to not have posted anything in your QT this game - will probably get you lynched, because players will know it's probably a lie
- Fabricate an entire wrong QT after you're asked - even if you manage to do this believably and have the time, it doesn't solve the problem, because now you did put in the work after all

So there is no shortcut. You either have to put in the work every game, or you have to stop using QTs in all games, or you have to get lynched whenever town requests that everyone quotes his QT content, which should happen every game as it's in town's interest.

If you are someone who doesn't use QTs in general, then it doesn't affect you directly.

[silverspawn]

I also agree with the solution, and - really, this shouldn't be an issue. It has never been an issue before, because quoting from QTs has never been allowed, and if we make the intent clear for the future, then there's no reason why it should be different in the future. The only way that it can be a problem is if you allow it in your games.

[Awaclus]

- Fabricate an entire wrong QT after you're asked - even if you manage to do this believably and have the time, it doesn't solve the problem, because now you did put in the work after all

I don't think this is a problem, because "paraphrase your QT" is not fundamentally different from "explain what kinds of thoughts you had at the time when you hammered X and chose to jailkeep Y etc" in that regard — the only difference is that in the former case, you're supposedly doing it based on the notes that you've taken rather than from memory. It's simply something that every scum player has always had to do in every game, and I think it is not necessarily unfun because all of that effort is directly making an actual difference and not just being there just in case.

It's only a problem if the town player can confirm that his QT is actually his QT by copypasting it and sending the message extremely shortly after he was asked to do so.

[silverspawn]

I don't think this is a problem, because "paraphrase your QT" is not fundamentally different from "explain what kinds of thoughts you had at the time when you hammered X and chose to jailkeep Y etc" in that regard

I said 'fabricate a QT'. I mean write an entire QT after you're asked, the same that you don't want to do from the start of the game. Paraphrasing won't help you if town ask that you post your QT literally.

[gkrieg13]

People can post rereads of the game, which are done from the perspective of the present.  It is hard to fabricate things from the past, because they require less knowledge than you already have, which is why mafia is hard sometimes in the first place!

All it will take is one scum posting one of these QTs in thread and no one will think it is necessarily townie.  Or just always refuse to post things from your QT in thread as either alignment

[yuma]

I will bring this up once again as it applied specifically to me:

At one period my place of work blocked access to the forums. So while I was at work, during times of downtime of which there were many, I could not access the forums. However, I did have access to my email through which I was able to receive subscription updates to the threads in question. As a result I would write down thoughts in a separate document to post at a later time when I had access to the forums. I would direct quote what I had already typed at this time period.

In addition to inform people of what I was doing, as it was obvious that I was replying in a very rapid fashion to multiple posts in a row I described this process in detail so everyone knew that I was quoting from an outside source.

My question is thus: would my behavior, which was required for me to play the game during this time period as I would often only have 30 minute increments to actually post content each day, be allowed. Because my interpretation of the above ruling would disqualify it. Obviously this is an exception, but other such exceptions could arise. And if it is allowed how is it distinguished from what is done in posting to QTs?

What of the shared google document used in MV that everyone agreed to use? What of grujah's bread crumbing in... MIX I think??

I think there are other examples as well.

I understand the concerns listed above, but personally I think self policing is better than creating hard rules that may restrict or deter people from being able to play the game in unusual situations.

Dependent upon my workplace I may need to resort to using this posting method again in the future.

Also isn't the paraphrasing issue just as, or nearly as onerous, for scum to have to deal with if one posts a lot in a QT and needs to paraphrase multiple posts for credibility?

That said I think the rules are fine for individual mods to use as they please, but coming from my background and perspective, I think it is a concern.

[gkrieg13]

I think people just need to follow the golden rule.  I just put the rule in my rule set so that people don't demand that everyone post their QT into the thread, which I think breaks the golden rule

[silverspawn]

My question is thus: would my behavior, which was required for me to play the game during this time period as I would often only have 30 minute increments to actually post content each day, be allowed.

Of course it would.

There is really no point to discuss the literal phrasing of the rule. Everyone knows what the problem is, and what isn't. I don't see anyone wanting to disallow what you're describing here.

[Roadrunner7671]

Just get rid of direct quoting after saying it's a direct quote. Feel free to copy/paste from your QT, but don't quote it! Probably don't tell anyone it's from your QT, either.

[silverspawn]

Just get rid of direct quoting after saying it's a direct quote. Feel free to copy/paste from your QT, but don't quote it! Probably don't tell anyone it's from your QT, either.

er... no. that doesn't solve the issue of mass quoting from the QT.

If you really want to have a rule for it, disallow literal quoting of everything that's more than 10 hours old or something to that effect.

[gkrieg13]

I know you have a problem with my cuteness Awaclus, but you didn't have to make a thread out of it.

[Awaclus]

I know you have a problem with my cuteness Awaclus, but you didn't have to make a thread out of it.

In this case the QT in question was WW, though.

My question is thus: would my behavior, which was required for me to play the game during this time period as I would often only have 30 minute increments to actually post content each day, be allowed. Because my interpretation of the above ruling would disqualify it. Obviously this is an exception, but other such exceptions could arise. And if it is allowed how is it distinguished from what is done in posting to QTs?

Well, it's pretty much up to the mod to determine if it looks like a player is breaking that rule, so in practice I imagine it would be allowed.

[yuma]

My question is thus: would my behavior, which was required for me to play the game during this time period as I would often only have 30 minute increments to actually post content each day, be allowed.

Of course it would.

There is really no point to discuss the literal phrasing of the rule. Everyone knows what the problem is, and what isn't. I don't see anyone wanting to disallow what you're describing here.

I don't either and I am not suggesting anyone would. I guess my concern is the gray area between and the area that has been described as "mod determines."

I know that is part of being a mod, but if possible I like to stay away from making one sort of decisions when possible. But if others are willing to do so I can't fault them for that.

[yuma]

Just get rid of direct quoting after saying it's a direct quote. Feel free to copy/paste from your QT, but don't quote it! Probably don't tell anyone it's from your QT, either.

er... no. that doesn't solve the issue of mass quoting from the QT.

If you really want to have a rule for it, disallow literal quoting of everything that's more than 10 hours old or something to that effect.

That could work.

And I am not trying to be a pain, I mean this thread is the place to discuss this right??

But simply state why I don't think the solutions being promoted as the ultimate solution actually are the ultimate solution. I don't have the answer either. It is a work in progress. But I still think the ideal would be to not have need for a rule but more for a group who refuses to participate in it, which I, personally, have said I would do.

[gkrieg13]

I know you have a problem with my cuteness Awaclus, but you didn't have to make a thread out of it.

In this case the QT in question was WW, though.

My question is thus: would my behavior, which was required for me to play the game during this time period as I would often only have 30 minute increments to actually post content each day, be allowed. Because my interpretation of the above ruling would disqualify it. Obviously this is an exception, but other such exceptions could arise. And if it is allowed how is it distinguished from what is done in posting to QTs?

Well, it's pretty much up to the mod to determine if it looks like a player is breaking that rule, so in practice I imagine it would be allowed.

But I'm such a QT (cutie)

[Roadrunner7671]

If enough of us outright refuse to post things from our QT in the game, we're good. Sign a petition or something.

[Awaclus]

I know you have a problem with my cuteness Awaclus, but you didn't have to make a thread out of it.

In this case the QT in question was WW, though.

My question is thus: would my behavior, which was required for me to play the game during this time period as I would often only have 30 minute increments to actually post content each day, be allowed. Because my interpretation of the above ruling would disqualify it. Obviously this is an exception, but other such exceptions could arise. And if it is allowed how is it distinguished from what is done in posting to QTs?

Well, it's pretty much up to the mod to determine if it looks like a player is breaking that rule, so in practice I imagine it would be allowed.

But I'm such a QT (cutie)

Thanks for explaining the joke, I already got it though.

If enough of us outright refuse to post things from our QT in the game, we're good. Sign a petition or something.

But that's bad play if you're town in a game where posting things from your QT is allowed.

[Roadrunner7671]

I think pisting from your QT is like posting a screenshot of your PM. They're both something I'll never do.

[Awaclus]

I think pisting from your QT is like posting a screenshot of your PM. They're both something I'll never do.

In a game where the former is allowed and the latter is not, the difference is that the former is allowed and the latter is not. You should do whatever it takes to win the game, even if you have to use tactics that feel "cheap", as long as they're allowed in the rules.