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[gkrieg13]

Welcome to M76: Soap Opera Mafia by gkrieg13.

This game is for 9-players, and is an invented, semi-open setup designed by gkrieg13.

Co-mod: RoadRunner7671

Sign ups are open.

1. Joseph2302 - Lynched D1 Vanilla Townie
2. Awaclus - Lynched D3 Mafia Goon
3. silverspawn
4. ashersky - Lynched D2 Mafia JOAT
5. Haddock
6. Iguanaiguana
7. 2.71828..... - Killed N2 Insane Bodyguard
8. Witherweaver
9. Hydrad - Killed N1 Weak Vigilante

Tags: SirMartin, scott_pilgrim

Game State Tracker:
D1 start || D1 end
D2 start || D2 end
D3 start || D3 end



Rule set has been taken from ashersky, but standard rule 4 is my own
The Rules:

The Golden Rule:
This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.

The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by your role QT.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
4. Quoting of QTs is forbidden as well
5. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
6. All night actions must be submitted within 24 hours of day ending.
7. Players must post once every 24 hours.
8. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
9. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
10. Cryptography is not allowed.
11. The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
12. Dead players may not post in thread or QT, except their Role QT. A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
13. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.

The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You may vote: no lynch.
5. Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.
6. Lynch rules vary by the number of players alive. With 10 or more players alive, the player with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched. Ties are broken by coin flip. With nine or fewer players alive, if a majority lynch is not reached by the deadline, no lynch occurs.

The Rest:
1. Bold, green text is reserved for the Mod. Players may not use it.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please write to the Mod in your role QT. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently, especially because I am a new mod. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via your role QT. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. One prod will be issued after 48 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.
7. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.

Deadlines:
1. Days will last ten IRL days.
2. Nights will last two IRL days.

[gkrieg13]

Setup Post:

This game consists of the following roles:

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia JOAT (1-shot of each: Strongman, Ninja, Godfather)
3 Vanilla Townies
4 PRs, each with 1 modifier and 1 role chosen randomly from the lists below

• Roles: Cop, Doctor, Tracker, Watcher, Vigilante, Jailkeeper, Roleblocker, Neopolitan, Rolecop, Bodyguard
  
• Modifiers:Macho, Miller, Insane, Random, Witness (always shown targeting the person who died if tracked), Framed (always shown as targeting the person who was killed for a watcher), Vanillaising, Ascetic, Weak, Loud

All players will be given role QTs and all communications with the mod should be made in those role QTs.
The PRs and modifiers have been designed so none of the PRs can ever be 100% certain of their results!

[gkrieg13]

Flavor Post:

The flavor for this game will be taken from the soap operas.  I'm not that excited about writing flavor, so all flavor will just be quotes from random soap operas. 

Flavor has no effect on the game, and flavornames will be not be given

[gkrieg13]

maybe /in. two games at once is where I am at. I can't handle three...

This won't start until Cupcake Mafia is in N1

[Roadrunner7671]

/tag

[Roadrunner7671]

Wait am I only in one game?
/in

[Awaclus]

/in

[silverspawn]

/in

[ashersky]

/in, assuming that's allowed

[gkrieg13]

/in, assuming that's allowed

I just put you as the comod, but I could probably mod it myself if you want to play.

[silverspawn]

6. Players must post once every 24 hours.

6. One prod will be issued after 48 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.

Are you sure you want to enforce these two rules? One post every 24 hours is, generally, not realistic, and the rule I think is more typical for really ambitious setups

Also, what about the current QT issue? Do you allow quotes from QT's?

[Haddock]

/in

[gkrieg13]

6. Players must post once every 24 hours.

6. One prod will be issued after 48 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.

Are you sure you want to enforce these two rules? One post every 24 hours is, generally, not realistic, and the rule I think is more typical for really ambitious setups

Also, what about the current QT issue? Do you allow quotes from QT's?

I do want to make sure that people are being good about posting.  I think the prods could say that when a player gets a second prod, they are modkilled.  Posting once a day is optimal, and posting once every two days is certainly attainable.

[gkrieg13]

Also, what about the current QT issue? Do you allow quotes from QT's?

I just inserted a rule to make this against the rules.

[faust]

One post every 24 hours is, generally, not realistic

What?

[2.71828.....]

/in

[silverspawn]

One post every 24 hours is, generally, not realistic

What?

What I mean is, if you look at f.ds games, you will probably not find a single one where there wasn't at least one person who had a 24 hour period of not posting. I think it happens quite a lot.

[Teproc]

/in

[Roadrunner7671]

6. Players must post once every 24 hours.

6. One prod will be issued after 48 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.

Are you sure you want to enforce these two rules? One post every 24 hours is, generally, not realistic, and the rule I think is more typical for really ambitious setups

Also, what about the current QT issue? Do you allow quotes from QT's?

Edge case: Drunk Mafia!

[Awaclus]

One post every 24 hours is, generally, not realistic

What?

What I mean is, if you look at f.ds games, you will probably not find a single one where there wasn't at least one person who had a 24 hour period of not posting. I think it happens quite a lot.

Well, if you change the rule to 1 post/48 hours, then you will start not finding a single game where at least one player didn't fail at that. It's not like there's immediately a penalty for not posting once every 24 hours, you're just supposed to do so regardless.

[silverspawn]

will start not finding a single game where at least one player didn't fail

too many negatives!

[gkrieg13]

What I mean is, if you look at f.ds games, you will probably not find a single one where there wasn't at least one person who had a 24 hour period of not posting. I think it happens quite a lot.

I agree.  That's why prods are only sent at 48 hours of not posting.  The ambiguity is nice because it gives me more discretion as a mod.  I mean the ideal game would happen with everyone in the same room, where they would have to talk every minute or so, otherwise people would get annoyed.  The same thing is true for this game, only on a longer timeframe.

[SirMartin]

/tag

[Awaclus]

will start not finding a single game where at least one player didn't fail

too many negatives!

But since the limit is 24 hours, now you will not start not finding a single game where at least one player didn't fail at 1 post/48 hours.

[Teproc]

People have failed to post every 48 hours plenty of time.

Sometimes at lylo. Sometimes they were named Jimmmm.

[2.71828.....]

I prefer to have it as prod upon request after 24 hours of no posting.

My issue with a rule "post once every 24 hours" is the enforcement of the rule. Standard rules, if broken, should result in modkill or other such serious punishment (as stated in "the rest" #7). Inactivity can become an issue, but I am a strong advocate of the mod not being forced into a corner dealing with prods/inactivity. Trust me, it is not something you want to be forced to do as a mod. Instead, force the players to police their own game when activity is concerned. Prods after 24 hours allow that. (I would also change to 2 prods then risk replacement/modkill- 3 strikes and you are out)

[Teproc]

I agree with e. I guess it's something ash started doing recently ? There must have been a game wher elurking was a huge issue, but I don't see how this is really a solution, because I haven't see it been enforced at all. Becase it'd be a nightmare to do so.

[2.71828.....]

I agree with e. I guess it's something ash started doing recently ? There must have been a game wher elurking was a huge issue, but I don't see how this is really a solution, because I haven't see it been enforced at all. Becase it'd be a nightmare to do so.

I think the last game it really became an issue was the one I linked

[Hydrad]

/in

[Roadrunner7671]

Before you lock the thread, I would be willing to go out and become a co-mod if you need one. I am planning on modding a game in the near future so it might be useful for me, and no one else has stepped up. If you would rather have me play and find a more experianced co-mod, I completely understand. But I will offer.

[gkrieg13]

Before you lock the thread, I would be willing to go out and become a co-mod if you need one. I am planning on modding a game in the near future so it might be useful for me, and no one else has stepped up. If you would rather have me play and find a more experianced co-mod, I completely understand. But I will offer.

I'm sure you will make a great comod!  I'll send you the links to the QTs.

This means we still have one more spot open!

[Roadrunner7671]

Before you lock the thread, I would be willing to go out and become a co-mod if you need one. I am planning on modding a game in the near future so it might be useful for me, and no one else has stepped up. If you would rather have me play and find a more experianced co-mod, I completely understand. But I will offer.

I'm sure you will make a great comod!  I'll send you the links to the QTs.

This means we still have one more spot open!

Awesome! Thanks for the opportunity!

[gkrieg13]

Before you lock the thread, I would be willing to go out and become a co-mod if you need one. I am planning on modding a game in the near future so it might be useful for me, and no one else has stepped up. If you would rather have me play and find a more experianced co-mod, I completely understand. But I will offer.

I'm sure you will make a great comod!  I'll send you the links to the QTs.

This means we still have one more spot open!

Awesome! Thanks for the opportunity!

Of course!  Happy to have you!

[ashersky]

Make sure you make a new mod QT, btw.

[scott_pilgrim]

/tag

[ashersky]

One post every 24 hours is, generally, not realistic

What?

[silverspawn]

I prefer to have it as prod upon request after 24 hours of no posting.

My issue with a rule "post once every 24 hours" is the enforcement of the rule. Standard rules, if broken, should result in modkill or other such serious punishment (as stated in "the rest" #7). Inactivity can become an issue, but I am a strong advocate of the mod not being forced into a corner dealing with prods/inactivity. Trust me, it is not something you want to be forced to do as a mod. Instead, force the players to police their own game when activity is concerned. Prods after 24 hours allow that. (I would also change to 2 prods then risk replacement/modkill- 3 strikes and you are out)

exactly

[faust]

/hammer

Does the "insane" modifier do anything to non-Cop roles?

[Roadrunner7671]

/hammer

Does the "insane" modifier do anything to non-Cop roles?

No, the insane modifier only impacts cops.

[Teproc]

/out, sorry. Hopefully won't be too hard to replace me since this is pretty small.

[Witherweaver]

I can

/in

for Teproc.

[Joseph2302]

Damn it, 1 hour too late...

/sub in case you need it

[faust]

Joseph, you can take my place. I think I prefer to /out.

[gkrieg13]

updated the OP

[Joseph2302]

Joseph, you can take my place. I think I prefer to /out.

Um okay, thanks

[gkrieg13]

Updated the OP

[Roadrunner7671]

Drat. Can't we just hold a measly nine people?

[Witherweaver]

This signup has more twists than a soap opera!

[iguanaiguana]

Good thing I auto /hammer all Roadrunner co-mods

[Roadrunner7671]

Good thing I auto /hammer all Roadrunner co-mods

I'm flattered, but I hope you realize gkreig has this ship well under control.

[Haddock]

Good thing I auto /hammer all Roadrunner co-mods

You're back!

[iguanaiguana]

Good thing I auto /hammer all Roadrunner co-mods

You're back!

lol I was never gone

[Teproc]

Given the nature of this thread, I'm suspecting this to be iguanaiguana's evil twin...

[iguanaiguana]

Dude, I'm totally town 

[gkrieg13]

Sending out PMs now

[gkrieg13]

THREAD LOCKED (except for tags)
PMs are out.  Game will start Wednesday at 2:00:00PM forum time

[gkrieg13]

Remember to /confirm in your Role QT

[gkrieg13]

I'm starting this early so we have at least one game in the day phase.

[gkrieg13]

You know it's like watching a Soap Opera... I've never seen a soap but they're addicting, I guess, and I think wrestling is sort of the same thing.

-Sting, English musician.

Day 1 begins! Thread Unlocked!

Not Voting (9): Joseph2302, Awaclus, silverspawn, ashersky, Haddock, Iguanaiguana , 2.71828....., Witherweaver, Hydrad

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. D1 ends February 19th at 6:00 PM.

[2.71828.....]

Been a while since I played a small game. Should be fun

[Witherweaver]

Scummy.

Vote: e

[2.71828.....]

I also think vote: witherweaver is the best thing to do in this scenario.

[ashersky]

vote: ww

Wagon!

Also, I have a plan.  Will lay it out tomorrow.

[2.71828.....]

Ashersky has a plan. It has been too long. I miss a good ashersky plan. You know, like the one from village mafia

[2.71828.....]

I am doubtful about ashersky's plan. This setup doesn't seem very conducive toward "plans." 

Although, PRs having all the weird modifiers might actually make a plan useful

[ashersky]

Ashersky has a plan. It has been too long. I miss a good ashersky plan. You know, like the one from village mafia

That was a good plan.

[2.71828.....]

Now that I am thinking more about it, yes. A plan is probably very important here.

[Joseph2302]

I am doubtful about ashersky's plan. This setup doesn't seem very conducive toward "plans." 

Although, PRs having all the weird modifiers might actually make a plan useful

Unless ash is scum, and plans to make a plan to screw us all over.
Vote: ash

[2.71828.....]

The PRs and modifiers have been designed so none of the PRs can ever be 100% certain of their results!

This is why we need a plan I think. I am willing to hear ash's plan.


Oh wait

Then we can't lynch him today.....Clever.....Clever.....

[ashersky]

IRL tomorrow, not game tomorrow.  It's late here.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I have an announcement.

I am really Ashersky's long-lost twin brother, separated at birth.

[Witherweaver]

Discuss.

[2.71828.....]

We are all WW

[2.71828.....]

Also, are we talking fraternal or identical?

[Witherweaver]

Identical, but I underwent extensive plastic surgery after a vicious acid attack leaving my face horribly scarred.

[Witherweaver]

And so I am filled with hate and anger, and that's why I'm a vig.

Okay that last part was a joke.

[Awaclus]

Vote: silverspawn

I re-read Futuramafia and got a pretty strong scum vibe from silverspawn especially at the end of that game.

[silverspawn]

plan, huh? I hope we will actually hear it this time

vote: WW for distracting everyone

[iguanaiguana]

Alright,

First of all I want to apologize to scum, because you guys are going to lose this game hard. Let me explain.

Well, first of all, Hellz Yeah, I am town this game, being scum sucks and I am so glad I am not them. Finding out the liars is 1000% more satisfying than lying with every breath. Although, let's be honest, both of them are really fun.

Secondly, my faction is going to win this game. Why? Because I damn well deserve it. I've done three of these games, and in my three games I have been a significant part of the losing faction twice, and an incredibly insignificant part of the winning faction once. I deserve to win a game for once. I am so, so NOT going down in F.DS mafia history as that guy who gets the "losing side MVP nod" in every game he plays. No way. So I am going to win.

When you put point one and point two together, what do you get? I'm town, and my faction wins. ERGO, scum loses. Sorry scum, but someone has to lose and I'm not you.

[2.71828.....]

I like this fiery iguana we have here. Maybe we should call him a dragon rather than an iguana

[iguanaiguana]

I like this fiery iguana we have here. Maybe we should call him a dragon rather than an iguana

[ashersky]

Okay, here's the plan.

I think "useless" PRs should claim.

Here's my thinking: we're in a advantageous spot, given we're looking for two scum in eight players.  POE is especially useful here.  If we drop to two scum in six players, scum is in a much tougher position.

My definition of "useless" here are PRs who will have a hard time being believed if they have a result.  That would include the following modifiers:

Miller, Insane, Random, Witness (always shown targeting the person who died if tracked), Framed (always shown as targeting the person who was killed for a watcher), Vanillaising, Ascetic, Loud

Obviously, the PR needs to decide for themselves just how useless they are.  A Weak PR might think about claiming, or claiming targets.

We always talk about early claiming but never do it.  Here's a time when it could be worthwhile depending on the odd combinations that were rolled.

[ashersky]

Nevermind on Loud, actually.  That's not a negative.  It actually is a way to confirm roles.

[silverspawn]

Okay. I support that plan. But I think we should have a majority on it before anyone claims.

[Haddock]

Greetings!

vote: Iguana.  Welcome back!  (yeah, yeah, you weren't gone; but it felt like it. <sniff>)

Ash's plan seems OK, is my first impression.

[Hydrad]

oh hey!

I'm in favor of the plan.

[Awaclus]

Yeah, plan seems pretty good.

[Haddock]

That's actually a majority in favour. 

Let's see what a couple more people say before we have any claims though, it's possible someone (with more insight than me, not that that's hard) might come up with some major problem with it.

Think it's fine though.

[Joseph2302]

Seems fine to me.
Although isn't this just a way of breaking/solving the setup? In which case it's good for town probably.

[iguanaiguana]

Alright, I have a witness modifier on my role. That's all I'll say for now.

Haddock voting for me is insane. It's like he didn't even read the post where I said Hellz Yeah, I'm town.

Also I wanted to vote for Witherweaver because he lost me the game by being on the oppsing faction and surviving to the end in both Simply Simpler and Marvel heroes, but he got three votes already so I guess my RVS thunder got stole.

[Witherweaver]

If you want to vote for me, you're gonna have a bad time.

e is buddying, as is par.

Ash's plan gives scum a bit of a free ride fake claiming, no?  Even so, I tentatively believe Iguana.

[silverspawn]

okay. I have nothing to claim.

[Witherweaver]

On the other hand, Ash/Iguana would be interesting.  But I suppose not really worth it on the off-chance that there is a real Witness.

[iguanaiguana]

On the other hand, Ash/Iguana would be interesting.  But I suppose not really worth it on the off-chance that there is a real Witness.

Dude, there is a real witness: me. Did you read both my first post and my third post?

Though I fully admit that if Ash and I were scum together I'd want to try something like this.

[Witherweaver]

On the other hand, Ash/Iguana would be interesting.  But I suppose not really worth it on the off-chance that there is a real Witness.

Dude, there is a real witness: me. Did you read both my first post and my third post?

Though I fully admit that if Ash and I were scum together I'd want to try something like this.

Are you saying you softclaimed Witness in your first post?  Because that would be highly suspicious.

[iguanaiguana]

On the other hand, Ash/Iguana would be interesting.  But I suppose not really worth it on the off-chance that there is a real Witness.

Dude, there is a real witness: me. Did you read both my first post and my third post?

Though I fully admit that if Ash and I were scum together I'd want to try something like this.

Are you saying you softclaimed Witness in your first post?  Because that would be highly suspicious.

No, I'm saying that when you put together this statement:

Hellz Yeah, I am town

and this statement:

Alright, I have a witness modifier on my role.

then you know that there is a real witness: me.

[Witherweaver]

Heck, let's just do a good old-fashioned full massclaim.

[iguanaiguana]

Heck, let's just do a good old-fashioned full massclaim.

I don't much like this idea.

Also it's kinda a dangerous thing to suggest for a dude who's at L-2.

[iguanaiguana]

Actually, maybe I kinda like the idea.

[Witherweaver]

Heck, let's just do a good old-fashioned full massclaim.

I don't much like this idea.

Also it's kinda a dangerous thing to suggest for a dude who's at L-2.

'kinda a dangerous thing' is my middle name....

[iguanaiguana]

WkadtW

[2.71828.....]

So. The plan is a mass claim.

Although iguana simply claimed his modifier. I could see a mad modifier claim being useful, but claiming the actual role can wait until d2? That seems better to me

[2.71828.....]

e is buddying, as is par.

Good point. Last time I was convinced iguanaiguana was town he proved to be scum

[2.71828.....]

Which means the foolproof way to catch iguana add scum is for me to buddy him. Yeah. I believe his claim. Which means he is town

[2.71828.....]

Preliminary town -> scum
e
Iguana
silverspawn
Haddock
Ashersky
WW
Joseph
Awaclus
Hydrad

Again, very preliminary. Much more secure with my read on the top 1 or so on this list than the bottom 8

[2.71828.....]

Discuss

[Witherweaver]

Preliminary town -> scum
e
Iguana
silverspawn
Haddock
Ashersky
WW
Joseph
Awaclus
Hydrad

Again, very preliminary. Much more secure with my read on the top 1 or so on this list than the bottom 8

Safest reads list ever.

[Hydrad]

Preliminary town -> scum
e
Iguana
silverspawn
Haddock
Ashersky
WW
Joseph
Awaclus
Hydrad

Again, very preliminary. Much more secure with my read on the top 1 or so on this list than the bottom 8

Eh I'm losing?

maybe this will help.

I'm a weak vig. So I probably am not going to use my power unless we need it to win somehow. So I think a claim is good.

[silverspawn]

huh weak vig. That's interesting. so you either kill town or trade yourself for scum.

[Hydrad]

huh weak vig. That's interesting. so you either kill town or trade yourself for scum.

ya. If I was normall big there is a chance I would actually use it. But as a weak vig the odds are even further in the favor of me just hurting town a ton. So I figured I probably shouldn't go for it.

[silverspawn]

yeah there's no way you should use this role yet. it's good if we have a bad number of players, like if we're at 4/1, one town would die next night. Then you use it, because worst case it's 2/1 instead of 3/1, which is identical, and best case we win.

[silverspawn]

I like it design-wise

[silverspawn]

they key question is: is scum!you creative enough to claim this? I'm leaning towards no (sorry )

[silverspawn]

that was not supposed to be a smiley

[Hydrad]

they key question is: is scum!you creative enough to claim this? I'm leaning towards no (sorry )

No thats fine. I know I wouldn't think of it either. I guess theres a chance my scum partner would suggest it to me. But for me alone I'm horrible at coming up with fake claims. I just always claim VT as scum.

[2.71828.....]

Ok, throw hydrad above iguana but below e.

Also, if you do use your power, please claim

[Hydrad]

Ok, throw hydrad above iguana but below e.

Also, if you do use your power, please claim

hurrah I did it!

[Haddock]

I've made like one post and we're already massclaiming?  Clearly I'm not paying enough attention. 

Are we actually doing that or is it just e's notion?

Weak vig is interesting.  Obviously I agree with consensus that it should not be used except in very particularly circumstances.

[2.71828.....]

Are we actually doing that or is it just e's notion?

It was ashersky's plan...

[Haddock]

My understanding of ash's plan was not to massclaim as such, but just that the rubbish roles should claim.

[gkrieg13]

“If you have to be in a soap opera try not to get the worst role.” - Judy Garland

Vote Count 1.1

iguanaiguana (1): Haddock
2.7 (1): WW
WW (3): 2.7, ashersky, ss [L-2]
ashersky (1): Joseph2302
ss (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (2): Hydrad, iguanaiguana

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day1 will end February 19 at 6:00 pm.

[silverspawn]

My understanding of ash's plan was not to massclaim as such, but just that the rubbish roles should claim.

I think hydrad's role is rubbish enough, but yes.

[Joseph2302]

No idea where we are in the claiming order, but I'm happy to claim right now.

I'm VT.

[silverspawn]

No idea where we are in the claiming order, but I'm happy to claim right now.

I'm VT.

this is exactly what you were not supposed to claim. We are not doing a massclaim.

[silverspawn]

people with bad roles claim. That's not a complicated plan.

[Awaclus]

Vote: Joseph

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Awaclus

[silverspawn]

Vote: Awaclus

I'm not so sure. I faked ignorance about a claiming plan in my first scum game and claimed earlier than I needed to.

[Awaclus]

Vote: Awaclus

WW is Joseph's partner.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Awaclus

I'm not so sure. I faked ignorance about a claiming plan in my first scum game and claimed earlier than I needed to.

Joseph isn't really a new player any more.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Awaclus

WW is Joseph's partner.

We're Masons.

[silverspawn]

Vote: Awaclus

WW is Joseph's partner.

We're Masons.

this isn't a series claim, is it?

[silverspawn]

*serious

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Awaclus

WW is Joseph's partner.

We're Masons.

this isn't a series claim, is it?

I assumed they weren't in this setup.

[Witherweaver]

Are you trying to construct townslips?

[silverspawn]

Are you trying to construct townslips?

no.

[iguanaiguana]

So we've heard claims from me (witness), silverspawn (nothing to claim), and Hydrad (weak vig).

I'd like to hear one of the following from the other six:

A) Some kinda claim
B) Nothing to claim (meaning I don't have a rubbish role modifier)
C) I'm not going along with this tomfoolery.

[iguanaiguana]

Oh I missed Joseph's thing.

[ashersky]

My plan has been fruitful.  That's good.

Don't like the VT claim.

Don't like WW trying to turn it into a mass claim.

[Witherweaver]

My plan has been fruitful.  That's good.

Don't like the VT claim.

Don't like WW trying to turn it into a mass claim.

Just like you didn't like me trying to vie for our parent's affection, which is why you arranged to get me out of the picture in utero.

[Witherweaver]

What do you think about scum using this to safely fake claim something without ever having to prove it?

[iguanaiguana]

What do you think about scum using this to safely fake claim something without ever having to prove it?

I think that's not very likely to have occurred, because I'm not scum.

[ashersky]

What do you think about scum using this to safely fake claim something without ever having to prove it?

I think I planned for that.  And I think you blew that possibility out of the water.  And I think DAMA.

[ashersky]

My plan has been fruitful.  That's good.

Don't like the VT claim.

Don't like WW trying to turn it into a mass claim.

Just like you didn't like me trying to vie for our parent's affection, which is why you arranged to get me out of the picture in utero.

This is 100% true.  I remember.  Sorry bro.

[Witherweaver]

What do you think about scum using this to safely fake claim something without ever having to prove it?

I think that's not very likely to have occurred, because I'm not scum.

You're also not the only one that has claimed or claimed to not have to claim.

[iguanaiguana]

What do you think about scum using this to safely fake claim something without ever having to prove it?

I think that's not very likely to have occurred, because I'm not scum.

You're also not the only one that has claimed or claimed to not have to claim.

Well to be fair, if silver is scum, he wasn't lying. Scum doesn't have any rubbish PRs.

As for Hydrad, IDK, It's Hydrad. There's like a 0.5% chance he's lying.

[Witherweaver]

But there is still:

{Witherweaver, Ashersky, Awaclus, Haddock,e}

Okay, I can go ahead and tell you that I have no rubbish.  Still, four people, potential scum.

[iguanaiguana]

ya seems like we mostly want to hear from those people.

[Witherweaver]

What do you think about scum using this to safely fake claim something without ever having to prove it?

I think I planned for that.  And I think you blew that possibility out of the water.  And I think DAMA.

How did you plan for that?

[Joseph2302]

My plan has been fruitful.  That's good.

Don't like the VT claim.

Don't like WW trying to turn it into a mass claim.

Woops, screw this- I can't ever do anything right.
Even when I'm VT, I still manage to screw up.

[Awaclus]

But there is still:

{Witherweaver, Ashersky, Awaclus, Haddock,e}

Okay, I can go ahead and tell you that I have no rubbish.  Still, four people, potential scum.

I have posted after the plan was approved by general consensus.

[ashersky]

I have no rubbing to claim.

[2.71828.....]

I don't have a useless role to report.

[Haddock]

I also don't have a rubbish role to report.

Someone said it was WW who tried to turn this into a mass claim.  But wasn't it e who first did that?

[iguanaiguana]

Cool, now what?

I think e looks scummy this game. But whenever I'm town I scumread him..................

YOLO Vote: e

[Joseph2302]

I also don't have a rubbish role to report.

Someone said it was WW who tried to turn this into a mass claim.  But wasn't it e who first did that?

Yes it was I believe.
Vote: e seems okay for now.

[Haddock]

That's L-2, right? Small games are weird.  I was thinking of voting e but having an L-1 this early might not be the best thing.

We are firmly out of rvs I guess though, so unvote

[silverspawn]

vote: Joseph

[silverspawn]

Joseph and igu are the top 2 scummiest players atm

[iguanaiguana]

Joseph and igu are the top 2 scummiest players atm

Joseph comes off towny from the VT thing. It was totes unfortunate, but not scummy.

[iguanaiguana]

Also, it gives me legitimate pleasure to hear you call me scummy when I am in fact town.

[silverspawn]

Also, it gives me legitimate pleasure to hear you call me scummy when I am in fact town.

If that gives you pleasure, then I dare say you might be doing something wrong.

I'm not sure if this hyper empathize on insisting you're town makes you towny or scummy, but I'm leaning toward scummy.

[iguanaiguana]

Eh, it's really easy for someone to do it as either alignment. In my last scum game, I did not say I was town at all because I didn't want to. Probably in my next scum game I will because I said it so much here and I will need to replicate that.

[silverspawn]

Eh, it's really easy for someone to do it as either alignment. In my last scum game, I did not say I was town at all because I didn't want to. Probably in my next scum game I will because I said it so much here and I will need to replicate that.

oh, now you're downplaying it? that's not good. vote: igu

[silverspawn]

Then again, maybe scum is less likely to back off earlier.

what do other people think? and don't tell me it's null.

[iguanaiguana]

Downplaying the fact that I'm town and loud about it? Hell no, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[2.71828.....]

This Crown Royal Regal Apple stuff is dangerous.  Especially when mixed with a bit of Cranberry juice. 

Speaking of which, I would totally vote iguana except for that pesky claim.

[2.71828.....]

I am also warming up to a vote: joseph

[Witherweaver]

I think Iguana is town.

I think e is a good vote.

[2.71828.....]

actually, vote: Haddock

He has consistently brought up the idea that I pushed for a mass claim (deviating from Ash's Plan) and I think that is a scummy misreading of the thread.  Here is what actually happened:

#96: WW says "Heck, let's just do a good old-fashioned full massclaim."
#97&98: Iguana starts out not liking a full massclaim (as proposed by WW) then he does kind of like it.
#101: I state: "So. The plan is a mass claim."  But I follow it up by saying this is not a good idea and that we should just claim modifiers (similar to what iguana had already done)

Reply #101 is the only time I said the words "mass claim" and I even added an addendum saying that we should not do that.  Yet twice Haddock has implicated me as being the sole culprit of instigating a massclaim. First, he states that this was "just e's notion" as if it is something I have fully endorsed and argued that we should be doing.  Then he goes on to defend WW as innocent in all matters concerning massclaiming but that I was the one who first brought it up and offered it as the Plan.  He even pulls Joseph along with him into that line of thought.  Who knows, that may even be why Iguana is voting for me!

All I can say is that people need to read better.  Ashersky got it right when he said that WW was the one trying to turn it into a massclaim.  I am not innocent in the matter (I did misrepresent Ashersky's plan using the word "massclaim" in my post), but I never advocated a massclaim or said that it is something we should do. 

[2.71828.....]

I could go with Haddock or Joseph right now.  I will stay on Haddock at this time

[Joseph2302]

Joseph and igu are the top 2 scummiest players atm

Joseph comes off towny from the VT thing. It was totes unfortunate, but not scummy.

It's a very me thing to do as well.
Not looking carefully enough, and screwing something up is my standard way of playing.

[Joseph2302]

I could go with Haddock or Joseph right now.  I will stay on Haddock at this time

I guess I can do a Haddock vote,  Vote: Haddock.

[iguanaiguana]

e, you explained the Haddock vote, but what makes Joseph scummy?

[Haddock]

actually, vote: Haddock

He has consistently brought up the idea that I pushed for a mass claim (deviating from Ash's Plan) and I think that is a scummy misreading of the thread.  Here is what actually happened:

#96: WW says "Heck, let's just do a good old-fashioned full massclaim."
#97&98: Iguana starts out not liking a full massclaim (as proposed by WW) then he does kind of like it.
#101: I state: "So. The plan is a mass claim."  But I follow it up by saying this is not a good idea and that we should just claim modifiers (similar to what iguana had already done)

Reply #101 is the only time I said the words "mass claim" and I even added an addendum saying that we should not do that.  Yet twice Haddock has implicated me as being the sole culprit of instigating a massclaim. First, he states that this was "just e's notion" as if it is something I have fully endorsed and argued that we should be doing.  Then he goes on to defend WW as innocent in all matters concerning massclaiming but that I was the one who first brought it up and offered it as the Plan.  He even pulls Joseph along with him into that line of thought.  Who knows, that may even be why Iguana is voting for me!

All I can say is that people need to read better.  Ashersky got it right when he said that WW was the one trying to turn it into a massclaim.  I am not innocent in the matter (I did misrepresent Ashersky's plan using the word "massclaim" in my post), but I never advocated a massclaim or said that it is something we should do.

I think most of this might be based on a misunderstanding.  This long post of yours prompted me to have another look at your original post here:

So. The plan is a mass claim.

Although iguana simply claimed his modifier. I could see a mad modifier claim being useful, but claiming the actual role can wait until d2? That seems better to me

Looking at it now, I see that the word "mad" is probably a typo supposed to be "bad".  With that correction it's clear that you're backing ash's plan but not a massclaim.

When I read it, I saw "mad" as it actually was and thought you were saying that everyone should claim except people with a "mad" modifier.  I wasn't sure what you meant by that, except perhaps mad was shorthand for insane?  Anyway, taken that way it was a pretty weird idea - and your next few posts were weird too, so it all just looked totally bizarre.


So yeah - I guess I retract my insinuation that you were pushing for a massclaim, but I hope that explains why I thought it in the first place.

I still think your next few posts, namely:

Which means the foolproof way to catch iguana add scum is for me to buddy him. Yeah. I believe his claim. Which means he is town

and

Preliminary town -> scum
e
Iguana
silverspawn
Haddock
Ashersky
WW
Joseph
Awaclus
Hydrad

Again, very preliminary. Much more secure with my read on the top 1 or so on this list than the bottom 8

were pretty scummy though, so while you're less scummy than I thought, I'd still say you're still a bit scummy.

[Witherweaver]

e, you explained the Haddock vote, but what makes Joseph scummy?

They're scum partners and he needs to build some bus cred, obviously!

[Haddock]

Come to think of it, Joseph jumping on e on the back of the `massclaim incident' (as it shall henceforth be known) is not terrible, but it looks really bad that he then swings round on me as soon as e says anything at all about it.

vote: Joseph

and I will make that a real vote as soon as I check that I'm not hammering or anything.  Small games are WEIRD!

[Witherweaver]

Come to think of it, Joseph jumping on e on the back of the `massclaim incident' (as it shall henceforth be known) is not terrible, but it looks really bad that he then swings round on me as soon as e says anything at all about it.

vote: Joseph

and I will make that a real vote as soon as I check that I'm not hammering or anything.  Small games are WEIRD!

That's interesting, and it also seems to apply symmetrically to you.

[Haddock]

Yeah not even close, vote: Joseph.
It bugs me that I'm agreeing with Awaclus, just on principle.  But meh.

PPE. How so?

[Witherweaver]

Because you jumped on e because of the massclaim incident, backed off when challenged, and are now swinging around to Joseph.

[Witherweaver]

Well, difference is that you initiated the e thing, I think.

[Haddock]

Bah, words. 

I mean:
On principle, it bugs me that I'm agreeing with Awa.

Obviously I'm not saying that I'm agreeing with Awa on principle, which I guess you could read my previous post like that.

PPE. "The massclaim incident" I was talking about was just my mistaken reaction to it.  But yeah ok just terminology.
To your point: Me thinking e wanted a massclaim was a contributing factor but not my only reason to find e scummy.
But yeah OK I can kinda see your point.  The (PPE2: OK, aNOTHER) difference is that I have explained the narrative for my decisions and I hope everyone agrees there's a decent town narrative there.  We have nothing from Joseph.  Yet.

[iguanaiguana]

I think Joseph is town.

[Witherweaver]

I think Joseph is town.

Why is that?

[iguanaiguana]

I think Joseph is town.

Why is that?

Seems likes he's paying about 5% attention to what's going on. Scum usually pays at least like 50% attention because they really don't want to die.

[iguanaiguana]

Hydrad should vote for someone. His claim was really solid.

[iguanaiguana]

Hydrad is like "Yuma in Marvel Heroes Mafia" level IC, meaning that everyone is going to give me all kinds of crap for acting like he's an IC when he totally is.

[ashersky]

Agreeing with awa is scummy.

Sorry, been a busy two days.  Back in full force soon.

[Haddock]

I think Joseph is town.

Why is that?

Seems likes he's paying about 5% attention to what's going on. Scum usually pays at least like 50% attention because they really don't want to die.

Interesting.
He was SK in Harry Potter Mafia, wasn't he?  I know SK behaviour =/= scum behaviour, but I do seem to remember him being pretty unfocused then as well until right at the end - I'll have to go look, though, don't quote me on that.

[Witherweaver]

I'm mostly just not sure scum jumps out ahead with an early VT claim.  Possibly he'd think it would get town cred.

[Awaclus]

Agreeing with awa is scummy.

Why?

[iguanaiguana]

I'm mostly just not sure scum jumps out ahead with an early VT claim.  Possibly he'd think it would get town cred.

That's the thing. As town it's careless but as scum it's actually kinda ballsy and proactive.

[ashersky]

Agreeing with awa is scummy.

Why?

Because you never post your thoughts in thread, so if someone agrees with you, they are more likely to have learned your thoughts in your shared scum QT.

[Awaclus]

Agreeing with awa is scummy.

Why?

Because you never post your thoughts in thread, so if someone agrees with you, they are more likely to have learned your thoughts in your shared scum QT.

Yeah because the scum team is like 4 people and somehow it's also been possible to discuss Joseph's VT claim in response to your proposed plan in a scum QT today.

I post my votes in the thread, you don't have to know the reasons why I think someone is scum to agree with the conclusion.

[ashersky]

Agreeing with awa is scummy.

Why?

Because you never post your thoughts in thread, so if someone agrees with you, they are more likely to have learned your thoughts in your shared scum QT.

Yeah because the scum team is like 4 people and somehow it's also been possible to discuss Joseph's VT claim in response to your proposed plan in a scum QT today.

I post my votes in the thread, you don't have to know the reasons why I think someone is scum to agree with the conclusion.

Hey man, no need to get so defensive (about being caught).

You asked why agreeing with you is scummy -- I gave you a reason.  Doesn't mean I'm right.

(I am.)

[Awaclus]

Hey man, no need to get so defensive (about being caught).

You asked why agreeing with you is scummy -- I gave you a reason.  Doesn't mean I'm right.

(I am.)

So you seriously think that the scum team is like 4 people and somehow it's also been possible to discuss Joseph's VT claim in response to your proposed plan in a scum QT today?

[Roadrunner7671]

"I used to listen to the soap operas with my grandmother." -Bob Edwards

Vote Count 1.2

2.7 (1): Iguanaiguana
WW (1): Ashersky
Joseph2302 (2): Awaclus, Haddock
Awaclus (1): WW
Iguanaiguana (1): ss
Haddock (2): 2.7, Joseph2302

Not voting (1): Hydrad

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day1 will end February 19 at 6:00 Pm 

[Joseph2302]

Hey man, no need to get so defensive (about being caught).

You asked why agreeing with you is scummy -- I gave you a reason.  Doesn't mean I'm right.

(I am.)

So you seriously think that the scum team is like 4 people and somehow it's also been possible to discuss Joseph's VT claim in response to your proposed plan in a scum QT today?

Yh this is a non-starter really.
It requires 4 scum people, in which case this game is already wildly imbalanced (as a D1 mislynch would lose the game).

[Hydrad]

hey I'm still here!

And i don't really know who I want to vote though...

[Hydrad]

although I think I'm feeling townish on iguana.

[iguanaiguana]

although I think I'm feeling townish on iguana.

  Bros4lyfe 

Name one time we were not the same alignment. We are even same tribe!

[Haddock]

Wow.

Deathly silence.

Anyone around?

I might post a reads list at some point just to kick some discussion off, but I think I'll have to actually reread first, I'm losing track of things.

The first things I remember are that I find Joseph a bit scummy (obviously), e is still slightly scummy too, and I don't much like Ash's latest comments - don't know if that means he's scum, just that I don't like them.

Iguana seems towny I guess.  Can never read Hydrad but I need to reread him anyway.

[Awaclus]

The first things I remember are that I find Joseph a bit scummy (obviously), e is still slightly scummy too, and I don't much like Ash's latest comments - don't know if that means he's scum, just that I don't like them.

In my experience, ash tends to post stuff that I don't like as both alignments.

[ashersky]

Hey man, no need to get so defensive (about being caught).

You asked why agreeing with you is scummy -- I gave you a reason.  Doesn't mean I'm right.

(I am.)

So you seriously think that the scum team is like 4 people and somehow it's also been possible to discuss Joseph's VT claim in response to your proposed plan in a scum QT today?

Yh this is a non-starter really.
It requires 4 scum people, in which case this game is already wildly imbalanced (as a D1 mislynch would lose the game).

No, this is Awaclus twisted something to fit his combative style of play.

I said "agreeing with Awaclus is scummy" and he asked why.  I gave a reason.

This has nothing to do with the number of scum in this game, or a plan, or balance, or anything.  Why would anyone even suggest that?

We already know there are two scum -- it's in the setup.

Someone agreeing with Awaclus does not require 4 scum.
Awaclus stating a thought process in a scum QT that a partner could agree with does not require 4 scum.

That's all there is to this discussion.  People are spinning it up into something more.  Go back and read the whole exchange again.

[ashersky]

First, Haddock says this.

On principle, it bugs me that I'm agreeing with Awa.

Then, I say:

Agreeing with awa is scummy.

Then, Awaclus says:

Why?

Then, I reply:

Because you never post your thoughts in thread, so if someone agrees with you, they are more likely to have learned your thoughts in your shared scum QT.

This is the point at which Awaclus somehow makes the leap to a 4-man scum team:

Yeah because the scum team is like 4 people and somehow it's also been possible to discuss Joseph's VT claim in response to your proposed plan in a scum QT today.

I post my votes in the thread, you don't have to know the reasons why I think someone is scum to agree with the conclusion.

Why does he do that?  I have no idea.  There is nothing in my posts to suggest anything about the scum team size, or Joseph's VT claim, or my proposed plan.

I said agreeing with Awaclus is scummy and gave a reason, the end.

[Awaclus]

Hey man, no need to get so defensive (about being caught).

You asked why agreeing with you is scummy -- I gave you a reason.  Doesn't mean I'm right.

(I am.)

So you seriously think that the scum team is like 4 people and somehow it's also been possible to discuss Joseph's VT claim in response to your proposed plan in a scum QT today?

Yh this is a non-starter really.
It requires 4 scum people, in which case this game is already wildly imbalanced (as a D1 mislynch would lose the game).

No, this is Awaclus twisted something to fit his combative style of play.

I said "agreeing with Awaclus is scummy" and he asked why.  I gave a reason.

This has nothing to do with the number of scum in this game, or a plan, or balance, or anything.  Why would anyone even suggest that?

We already know there are two scum -- it's in the setup.

Someone agreeing with Awaclus does not require 4 scum.
Awaclus stating a thought process in a scum QT that a partner could agree with does not require 4 scum.

That's all there is to this discussion.  People are spinning it up into something more.  Go back and read the whole exchange again.

Me stating a thought process in a scum QT that a partner could agree with does kind of require me being able to post into a QT. I don't think scum has day talk in this setup (it should be mentioned in the setup post of a semi-open if they did, right?).

[ashersky]

Fairly certain you would have been able to communicate on Night 0, though.

[Haddock]

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

[Awaclus]

Fairly certain you would have been able to communicate on Night 0, though.

Because on Night 0, I totally knew that you would propose this plan and Joseph would react by claiming VT.

[Witherweaver]

Ash and Awaclus scum team, obviously.

[ashersky]

Fairly certain you would have been able to communicate on Night 0, though.

Because on Night 0, I totally knew that you would propose this plan and Joseph would react by claiming VT.

What does my plan have to do with comment whatsoever?

[ashersky]

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

It was mostly a joke, but then it seems to have picked up way more steam than it should have, which makes me think it has something to do with reality.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

It was mostly a joke, but then it seems to have picked up way more steam than it should have, which makes me think it has something to do with reality.

It's mostly null I think; Awaclus is not one to pass up the chance to comment/argue on something.  Though, Awaclus is sharing thoughts (albeit, none that have anything to do with the game) with us, which is inherently scummy.

[iguanaiguana]

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

It was mostly a joke, but then it seems to have picked up way more steam than it should have, which makes me think it has something to do with reality.

It's mostly null I think; Awaclus is not one to pass up the chance to comment/argue on something.  Though, Awaclus is sharing thoughts (albeit, none that have anything to do with the game) with us, which is inherently scummy.

He's not really sharing thoughts. He's really just defending himself the same way he always does.

Also, I think Awaclus is a good enough player to adapt to playing around the meta that he is only helpful as scum. As soon as everyone accepts that as his meta, all he has to do is being unhelpful and everyone assumes he's town, making his scum games a cakewalk.

Ash and Awaclus are both playing in their normal style. Let's not mistake that for scumminess or towniness; scum is always pushing those same tired mislynches.

[Haddock]

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

It was mostly a joke, but then it seems to have picked up way more steam than it should have, which makes me think it has something to do with reality.

It's mostly null I think; Awaclus is not one to pass up the chance to comment/argue on something.  Though, Awaclus is sharing thoughts (albeit, none that have anything to do with the game) with us, which is inherently scummy.

He's not really sharing thoughts. He's really just defending himself the same way he always does.

Also, I think Awaclus is a good enough player to adapt to playing around the meta that he is only helpful as scum. As soon as everyone accepts that as his meta, all he has to do is being unhelpful and everyone assumes he's town, making his scum games a cakewalk.

Ash and Awaclus are both playing in their normal style. Let's not mistake that for scumminess or towniness; scum is always pushing those same tired mislynches.

The man makes the sense.

[silverspawn]

No - claiming that things are null is scummy.

[2.71828.....]

I still like haddock here

[Joseph2302]

Noticing that Awaclus has been a lot more active than usual- not sure if it's a scum/town trait, but could be worth looking at.

Also, it's kind of convenient that ash propose something, and then doesn't claim himself- if he's a good PR then he would have had some setup info anyway (so did he need this claiming?) and otherwise he's scum.

[ashersky]

Noticing that Awaclus has been a lot more active than usual- not sure if it's a scum/town trait, but could be worth looking at.

Also, it's kind of convenient that ash propose something, and then doesn't claim himself- if he's a good PR then he would have had some setup info anyway (so did he need this claiming?) and otherwise he's scum.

Really?  Can't think of anything other than super PR or scum?

[iguanaiguana]

No - claiming that things are null is scummy.

I thought you would say that!

[Awaclus]

Noticing that Awaclus has been a lot more active than usual- not sure if it's a scum/town trait, but could be worth looking at.

Also, it's kind of convenient that ash propose something, and then doesn't claim himself- if he's a good PR then he would have had some setup info anyway (so did he need this claiming?) and otherwise he's scum.

I'm always this active when someone is trying to argue for something stupid, like ash was now.

What does my plan have to do with comment whatsoever?

Because the thing that we are agreeing upon is how Joseph responded to your plan. We could not have possibly agreed upon that before we knew how Joseph was going to react to your plan.

[Roadrunner7671]

"At this point in life, I would consider a soap. It would allow me to act and still do other things with my life. -Joe Lando

Vote Count 1.3
2.7 (1): Iguanaiguana
WW (1): Ashersky
Joseph2302 (2): Awaclus, Haddock
Awaclus (1): WW
Iguanaiguana (1): silverspawn
Haddock (2): 2.7, Joseph2302

Not voting (1): Hydrad

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM

[Joseph2302]

Noticing that Awaclus has been a lot more active than usual- not sure if it's a scum/town trait, but could be worth looking at.

Also, it's kind of convenient that ash propose something, and then doesn't claim himself- if he's a good PR then he would have had some setup info anyway (so did he need this claiming?) and otherwise he's scum.

Really?  Can't think of anything other than super PR or scum?

There's VT (which I missed- because once again I forgot that VTs weren't meant to be claiming!)
And there's weak PR, in which case you would have claimed.

[ashersky]

Noticing that Awaclus has been a lot more active than usual- not sure if it's a scum/town trait, but could be worth looking at.

Also, it's kind of convenient that ash propose something, and then doesn't claim himself- if he's a good PR then he would have had some setup info anyway (so did he need this claiming?) and otherwise he's scum.

I'm always this active when someone is trying to argue for something stupid, like ash was now.

What does my plan have to do with comment whatsoever?

Because the thing that we are agreeing upon is how Joseph responded to your plan. We could not have possibly agreed upon that before we knew how Joseph was going to react to your plan.

Then you misunderstood me.  I meant agreeing with you, ever, about anything (in mafia games) is scummy.  Nothing to do with the subject of said agreement.

[Haddock]

I still like haddock here

And my record of being found scummy D1 in every mafia game I've ever played continues.  <fist-pump>

Seriously, though, I don't know what I've done to deserve your suspicion.  You've not, as far as I can see, shown any reaction to my response dealing with your original point, so what gives?

Oh yeah, you're scum.

[ashersky]

What's scummy about Haddock, exactly?

[Hydrad]

Vote: ss

this is mainly to put my vote somewhere and its pretty much a guess at this point. But I just got a feeling.

Also I think Joeseph is town. While its annoying about the VT claim hes one of the people where I see it more as town!him instead of scum!plot.

[ashersky]

Sounds like normal Hydrad.

[2.71828.....]

I still like haddock here

And my record of being found scummy D1 in every mafia game I've ever played continues.  <fist-pump>

Seriously, though, I don't know what I've done to deserve your suspicion.  You've not, as far as I can see, shown any reaction to my response dealing with your original point, so what gives?

Oh yeah, you're scum.

Reaction to that little misunderstanding / reading is hard thing? I read what you said. I acknowledge what you said. I think you are scum.

As far as what you have done? Some of it is what you have not done, which is convince me you are town. Ashersky, iguana, iguana, silverspawn....they have all given me reason to think they are town. I know that is crazy PoE for D1 to done extent, but still. Your reads, your votes, nothing inspires me to think you are town.

So I think you are scum for now.

[2.71828.....]

Basically, of {Joseph, Awaclus, Haddock, WW} I like lynching toy the most

[2.71828.....]

You never know, I might protect you later if that proves to be the best course of action. But for now I will just defend people like iguana.

[iguanaiguana]

ok but your defending me is making me think you are scum dude

[Haddock]

Dude, you totally don't get to accuse me of being incapable of reading when it was your typo that started this whole thing.  Especially if you're going to have a typo in your very next post.

But that's just an aside.

Yeah that is pretty heavy poe for day 1.  I get it, it's day 1, there's not much to go on, and I agree that igu and maybe ss are towny.  But Joseph is definitely more lynchable than me, as is awa, probably.

[Awaclus]

Vote: Haddock

[Awaclus]

What's scummy about Haddock, exactly?

He's scum.

[Haddock]

Um.

Wrong, I'm afraid, awa.
Your confidence is misplaced and you're giving no reasons. Coming from anyone other than you this would be scummy as hell.  It hurts me that I have to give you town points for it.

On the plus side I'm not agreeing with you any more.

What has WW said or done recently? I don't like that he hasn't found me scummy yet, that's out of character for him.

[Witherweaver]

Um.

Wrong, I'm afraid, awa.
Your confidence is misplaced and you're giving no reasons. Coming from anyone other than you this would be scummy as hell.  It hurts me that I have to give you town points for it.

On the plus side I'm not agreeing with you any more.

What has WW said or done recently? I don't like that he hasn't found me scummy yet, that's out of character for him.

Damn, that's the kind of thing I would say as scum

I'm trying to temper my biases towards people I always find scummy.  I don't really have any opinion on you now.

[iguanaiguana]

Hm, ther'es lots of OMGUSy behavior going around. Let's maybe take a look at it?

A) Awaclus vs. Ashersky: Nothing really super weird here. I'd be more surprised if this didn't happen. Ashersky made a super strong statement, and Awaclus defended himself with similarly hyperbolic and seemingly deliberate misunderstanding. Unlikely scum partners I'd say, sorry but that's all I've got.

B) silverspawn going after me, and me trying really hard not to take the bait. I'm learning that more than anyone, silverspawn is that one person for me who I always think is scummy, so I'm trying to play around that right now and not vote for him, but it's really hard. Lots of my feelings towards him are still wrapped up in Trees Mafia TBH. So yeah some people said that he looks towny, and I guess too many of them said that for them to all be his scum partners... But Hydrad is pretty darn close to IC and voting for silver, which makes him at least a little bit more of a better lynch candidate.

C) Lots of of e vs. Haddock. It mostly looks like this:

"You're scum." "No, you're scum!"

But instead of using 5 words they use 500 words because playstyle. When it comes down to it, I think they're both doing it because of PoE too, which is interesting (yeah, I know, that word is illegal round these parts). Neither one has done anything legit, like, SCUMMY; but neither of them has either claimed or made some kinda mistake or done something that you could build a big case around either. So the main thing of note with them is actually just their picking fights with each other. It seems a little forced, so it wouldn't even be crazy if they were scum partners. Either both or none of them could definitely be scum also, let's not rule that out either. I know, I just said like, nothing, about their alignments. Sometimes inconclusive is just inconclusive and there's nothing more you can do.   

I know I didn't take us very far towards a lynch at all, but people are playing pretty reserved this game and we're missing a lot of the big challengers/talkers like Yuma, Faust, Teproc or even Roadrunner for that matter, so I think we're going to have to take baby steps to win this game and this is me doing the best that I can with the information I've seen so far. 

[iguanaiguana]

If there is anyone who doesn't think that Hydrad is basically IC in this game, I'd really like to hear it.

[iguanaiguana]

Either both or just one of them could definitely be scum also, let's not rule that out either.

Fixed a mistake in my big thing above.

[iguanaiguana]

Gunna round things out for the day by making my obligatory "not a scum slip" bolding mistake

<b> Vote: silverspawn </b>

 

[Awaclus]

If there is anyone who doesn't think that Hydrad is basically IC in this game, I'd really like to hear it.

There's a pretty good reason to believe that he's town and I wouldn't lynch him today, but I would only count on him being town if I had to.

[gkrieg13]

<b> Vote: silverspawn </b>

this vote does not count

[iguanaiguana]

<b> Vote: silverspawn </b>

this vote does not count

 

[Joseph2302]

If there is anyone who doesn't think that Hydrad is basically IC in this game, I'd really like to hear it.

Hydrad seems towny enough to me.

[Joseph2302]

So, let's try and get the game moving, I'm going to post a possible lynch list/summary of claims made:

1. Joseph2302 me, claimed VT
2. Awaclus - lots of posting, seems pro-town to me
3. silverspawn - nothing to claim
4. ashersky - proposed the plan, but didn't claim himself (convenient?)
5. Haddock - nothing to claim, getting a mild scum feel from him
6. Iguanaiguana - claimed to have witness modifier, first claimer = most likely town, seems towny in general
7. 2.71828..... - nothing to claim
8. Witherweaver - claimed Mason #130, but I think that was a joke? Not much else to go on
9. Hydrad - claimed weak vig, seems towny in general

I think the scum are hiding in those that didn't claim (it's the safest place after all), so these claims have just given everyone (including scum) a bit of setup info.
And I think scum!ash would know that this sort of claims would be easy for scum to hide in.
Therefore, I'm leaning towards Vote: ash.

[iguanaiguana]

My lynchpool is very similar to Joseph's, but I don't scumread Ash at this point and don't want to lynch him yet. Part of it is just that he gets lynched early all the time so I want to cut him a break and those are usually mislynches too.

Though the fact that no one other than Joseph is pushing an Ash lynch is a little suspicious...

[Haddock]

My lynchpool is very similar to Joseph's...

Cool.  Just to clarify - does that include your not wanting to lynch Joseph?


Been unable to pay much attention for a couple of days cos my girlfriend's been here - going to do some rereads now and post my thoughts.

[Joseph2302]

My lynchpool is very similar to Joseph's, but I don't scumread Ash at this point and don't want to lynch him yet. Part of it is just that he gets lynched early all the time so I want to cut him a break and those are usually mislynches too.

Though the fact that no one other than Joseph is pushing an Ash lynch is a little suspicious...

Why is no-one liking an Ash lynch except me suspicious?

I mean everyone did support the plan, although it's convenient his plan didn't make him reveal anything..

[iguanaiguana]

My lynchpool is very similar to Joseph's...

Cool.  Just to clarify - does that include your not wanting to lynch Joseph?


Been unable to pay much attention for a couple of days cos my girlfriend's been here - going to do some rereads now and post my thoughts.

Joseph's super super towny here, so yes. It also includes not wanting to lynch Iguana.

[iguanaiguana]

My lynchpool is very similar to Joseph's, but I don't scumread Ash at this point and don't want to lynch him yet. Part of it is just that he gets lynched early all the time so I want to cut him a break and those are usually mislynches too.

Though the fact that no one other than Joseph is pushing an Ash lynch is a little suspicious...

Why is no-one liking an Ash lynch except me suspicious?

I mean everyone did support the plan, although it's convenient his plan didn't make him reveal anything..

Because scum loves to mislynch Ash, so it's an indicator that Ash could be scum.

Still not enough to make me want to vote Ash today though.

[Haddock]

Ash: Hi plan seems pretty pro-town and has gone OK.  I don't agree with Joseph that his plan and the fact he didn't claim is "convenient" - Ash would make such a plan independent of PR or not, and also probably independently of alignment!  So slight town there.
It is slightly weird that he comments on how his plan has worked well after lots have people have been for it, but then waits for others to pipe up before saying himself that he has nothing to claim.  I guess he could say that he was leaving it implicit - but I feel Ash would usually want to lead by example, so the delay seems a bit funny.  Not sure it means anything though.
I'm happy to believe that his clash with Awa (and me to some extent) is coming from a towny place.
I did just see this post:

What's scummy about Haddock, exactly?

which comes shortly after he's just finished telling Awa that my agreeing with Awa is scummy on principle.  So that's odd, not sure what to make of it at this point.  The slight inconsistency is probably towny?

Overall ash comes out just on the towny side of null, to me.


Awa: His usual self.  I can always lynch Awa, but my guess would be town here.

e: Done nothing outright towny, and has had a few scummy posts (I quoted the succession of them in an earlier post.)  His case on me is based on my misunderstanding his stance on claiming (as a result of his typo, remember).  If he's town, he really should understand how bad the case is.  What, I intentionally misunderstand him, and then when called out for it, scum!me happens to find a convenient typo in his original post that happens to explain the whole thing?  No, just no.
Pushing a weak case is not inherently a scum trait, not on D1.  But combined with his general lack of towniness and the odd bad post I definitely come down on the side of scum with regards to e.

Haddock: town!

Iguana: All of his posts scream town!iguana.  Maybe too loud though!  It's beginning to feel ever so slightly forced.  His couple of properly-thought-out posts have seemed reasonable, though.  Mild town.

Hydrad: His usual self, and I believe his claim until I have reason to otherwise.  I haven't done the maths, but my gut tells me there SHOULD be at least one sucky role, and noone else has claimed one, so...
Definitely off the table for lynching today.

Joseph: Not many posts, and a scummy vote history.  I like my vote here.  Igu thinks he's town because he's not paying that much attention.  I don't agree that this applies: sometimes scum lurks.  Particularly if they aren't known for having a superactive meta.

SS: Making sense in general (the norm, I usually find myself agreeing with SS's approach to things).  That's not inherently towny in this case.  He's been pushing igu hard, which is the main thing I disagree with him on.  Him pushing someone hard D1 is very much within his meta, so fine, but that's easy enough to fake, and last time he pushed igu this hard he was towny, which I'm sure he's aware of.  That probably comes out completely null overall.  The fact that he's only had 20 posts is an unusual lack of activity for him, so that pushes me towards lurkyscum.  Could lynch.

WW: Man, I always find WW tough to read.  This game no exception.  He's had quite a few posts, but hasn't actually SAID that much.  Mostly what he has said I've agreed with, though.  I guess I COULD lynch him today if we absolutely had to, but I would not be clamouring to do so.

PPE 3.  Igu, no way is Joseph "super super towny".

[iguanaiguana]

PPE 3.  Igu, no way is Joseph "super super towny".

Lol

[iguanaiguana]

I disagree, but I could totally be wrong!!!


So, WW and silver both lurking is kinda weird.

[Haddock]

That's the thing though.  I wouldn't say WW is lurking as such.  He's made plenty of posts.  They just don't all contain real content.

[iguanaiguana]

Actually, back to the Joseph thing one more time.

Nah, I don't think I'm wrong. I mean, I guess I could be. I don't think so though.

[iguanaiguana]

That's the thing though.  I wouldn't say WW is lurking as such.  He's made plenty of posts.  They just don't all contain real content.

It's more just today that they are lurking.

[ashersky]

vote: ww

Good old acti-lurking.

[iguanaiguana]

vote: ww

Good old acti-lurking.

Agreed.

Vote: ww

[gkrieg13]

"No I don't watch soap operas, I have facebook.  There is a new episode every 5 minutes"

Vote Count 1.4
WW (2): Ashersky, iguanaiguana
Joseph2302 (1): Haddock
Awaclus (1): WW
Iguanaiguana (1): silverspawn
Haddock (2): 2.7,  Awaclus
ss (1): Hydrad
ashersky (1): Joseph2302

Not voting (0):

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM

[iguanaiguana]

You know what, I feel better about silver than Witherweaver. silver's scum here and it's painfully obvious.

Vote: silverspawn

[silverspawn]

You know what, I feel better about silver than Witherweaver. silver's scum here and it's painfully obvious.

Vote: silverspawn

it's called OMGUS

[iguanaiguana]

You know what, I feel better about silver than Witherweaver. silver's scum here and it's painfully obvious.

Vote: silverspawn

it's called OMGUS

Nah

[silverspawn]

Nah

It's called confirmation bias.

[iguanaiguana]

Nah

It's called confirmation bias.

Nah, I got a case, gimme a minute.

[iguanaiguana]

So here's the thing, silver doesn't like to be scum. He's said it multiple times and in multiple places (I'm remembering him bringing that up as a defense of himself in Simply Simpler when he and Gkrieg were the main D1 wagons). He's an active player, but less likely to be active if he roles scum. Yet he was scum in trees mafia, then scum again in Making Fun mafia which just ended. (He may have even been scum another time, I don't know. I didn't follow every game that happened between trees mafia and Making Fun.) If he got scum again here, I really see him thinking, "Scum AGAIN? I'm suddenly losing my enthusiasm for this game."

And that's just how he's acting. Active lurking, posting around the forum but not in here unless he's being directly challenged.

Then yeah, there's the fact that the only person he's pushed is me. He's built his case around my behavior, and when it didn't work out he backed off and just stopped posting in here in general. This is also consistent with his behavior in trees mafia where he would try to lead town toward a particular mislynch and if he couldn't make it happen fast enough he would lurk and hope that no other actual town leader would emerge and be listened to. One of his critical plays in that game was getting a no-lynch through by pretending not to realize that the voting deadline passed.

Also, choosing to push a person who claims to have a town PR on D1 is just scummy in general.

silver also attempted to brush off my vote on him in a fairly scummy way. It's all too easy to say that this is OMGUS and confirmation bias and just dismiss my case that way.

[Awaclus]

So here's the thing, silver doesn't like to be scum. He's said it multiple times and in multiple places (I'm remembering him bringing that up as a defense of himself in Simply Simpler when he and Gkrieg were the main D1 wagons). He's an active player, but less likely to be active if he roles scum. Yet he was scum in trees mafia, then scum again in Making Fun mafia which just ended. (He may have even been scum another time, I don't know. I didn't follow every game that happened between trees mafia and Making Fun.) If he got scum again here, I really see him thinking, "Scum AGAIN? I'm suddenly losing my enthusiasm for this game."

Really? Maybe he's changed in that regard then, but I remember him being disappointed in having rolled town before.

[silverspawn]

Yeah, I saw that coming. and for what it's worth, I've seen worse cases on me.

Really? Maybe he's changed in that regard then, but I remember him being disappointed in having rolled town before.

I did, but I did change my preference. I used to like scum just because I had only recently gotten into mafia and it was new; since then I've come to like town a lot more. So igu is right there.

Fact is though, mafia takes energy, I've a really important exam in two days, and nothing big has happened this game. I think I have been more active proportionally than in the game where I was scum. It's not like I've been lurking here, whereas in the scum game I got a mod warning for not posting at some point. So yeah, that's that.

[silverspawn]

Then yeah, there's the fact that the only person he's pushed is me. He's built his case around my behavior, and when it didn't work out he backed off

I didn't back off. It just didn't get momentum, so I lost interest. I never backpedaled.

[Witherweaver]

Posting, been busy.  Interesting that wagon on me got no momentum.

[2.71828.....]

Checking in at the airport on my way home.  I see not much has happened.  I will be able to do more after getting back.

[iguanaiguana]

One thing I realized today is that silver and I are actually (historically) pretty good at reading each other. In Marvel heroes, he was the only person who was consistently arguing that I was scum on D1 when other people wouldn't believe it, and since I was scum I was forced into a corner of calling him scummy too in order to get the attention off of me.

In Simply Simpler, I was town and so was he, and I was one of the main people trying to push the (scum driven) wagon off of him and onto Gkrieg, which eventually worked.

Part of the reason I had this "silver always looks like scum" reaction earlier was because I was reading Making Fun Mafia simultaneously to this and thinking "Wow, I think silver looks like scum there and here. Maybe I am just biased towards reading him that way." But I was actually right about him in that game

So all of this makes me more confident on my read here now. silver's responses to my case are not making me think he's any townier. He's talented at deflecting a case, making it seem trivial and stupid, which pushes people to move on to something else. So probably you all think I'm crazy because silver is so good at not getting lynched, but I think I'm on to something.

In games like this, especially ones where everyone is either disinterested, too busy, or playing reserved,  you have to take risks. I'm willing to stake my reputation on silver being scum because I think it will pay off.

[silverspawn]

He's talented at deflecting a case, making it seem trivial and stupid, which pushes people to move on to something else.

I am not deflecting - I implicitly called your case decent. I simply stated the actual reason for why I'm not active, which is that I have an exam in two days. That is not deflecting.

[iguanaiguana]

He's talented at deflecting a case, making it seem trivial and stupid, which pushes people to move on to something else.

I am not deflecting - I implicitly called your case decent. I simply stated the actual reason for why I'm not active, which is that I have an exam in two days. That is not deflecting.

I was referring to #261 & 263.

Though to be fair, I hadn't made an actual case at that point yet.

[iguanaiguana]

You have to concede at the very least that you are good at staying alive.

[silverspawn]

You have to concede at the very least that you are good at staying alive.

Yes, although I think I am primarily good at staying alive as town.

Whenever I'm scum, I don't have to be good at staying alive, because people just don't suspect me. Last two scum games, I barely had to defend myself. Last 100 town games, huge wagon on day 1. really, it's remarkable.

[silverspawn]

Or maybe I'm so good at staying alive as scum that no-one even suspects me ...

[iguanaiguana]

You have to concede at the very least that you are good at staying alive.

Yes, although I think I am primarily good at staying alive as town.

Whenever I'm scum, I don't have to be good at staying alive, because people just don't suspect me. Last two scum games, I barely had to defend myself. Last 100 town games, huge wagon on day 1. really, it's remarkable.

I'll do my best to turn that around for you!

[ashersky]

vote: ss

Shit drunk ama

[2.71828.....]

vote: ss

Shit drunk ama

What is the color of your carpet?

[Witherweaver]

I've noticed Ashersky has been drunk a lot more since moving.. he moved to Europe, right?  I think that explains it.

[iguanaiguana]

I will be able to do more after getting back.

vote: ss

Shit drunk ama

What is the color of your carpet?

e's true to his word.

[2.71828.....]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

[ashersky]

vote: ss

Shit drunk ama

What is the color of your carpet?

Europe no carpets floor wood

[ashersky]

I've noticed Ashersky has been drunk a lot more since moving.. he moved to Europe, right?  I think that explains it.

Yessiree.

[ashersky]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

Dude ss is always scumtho

[2.71828.....]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

Scratch that question. Terribly hard to answer while drunk.

Better: list 3 reasons to NOT vote for haddock

(Still, not a question, I know. But lists are easier to do)

[Witherweaver]

I didn't even know who I was voting for, so I checked:

"No I don't watch soap operas, I have facebook.  There is a new episode every 5 minutes"

Vote Count 1.4
WW (2): Ashersky, iguanaiguana
Joseph2302 (1): Haddock
Awaclus (1): WW
Iguanaiguana (1): silverspawn
Haddock (2): 2.7,  Awaclus
ss (1): Hydrad
ashersky (1): Joseph2302

Not voting (0):

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM

I don't know why I'm voting Awaclus, but I probably could have went ahead and guessed that I was.

[iguanaiguana]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

He's scum because of all that stuff I said, to which silver himself said "Hey, nice case."

[Witherweaver]

vote: ss

Shit drunk ama

What is the color of your carpet?

Europe no carpets floor wood

WHAT COLOR IS YOUR WOOD?

[ashersky]

Wood color

[ashersky]

I'm reading but not understanding autocorrect makes me seem smarter

[2.71828.....]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

He's scum because of all that stuff I said, to which silver himself said "Hey, nice case."

Yeah, a nice case means you are town, not that he is scum.

[ashersky]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

He's scum because of all that stuff I said, to which silver himself said "Hey, nice case."

Yeah, a nice case means you are town, not that he is scum.

What does this I don't know

[iguanaiguana]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

Scratch that question. Terribly hard to answer while drunk.

Better: list 3 reasons to NOT vote for haddock

(Still, not a question, I know. But lists are easier to do)

Here's my problem. You and Haddock are very similar cases. It's all rhetoric analysis and you're both good enough at rhetoric that it's hard to do, especially on D1. Maybe Haddock is scum, and if he is I hope that by D2 or D3 we can figure that out. But right now I don't see it. So what I've got is this:

Towniest > Scummiest
Me
Hydrad
Joseph
Ashersky
Awaclus
Haddock
e
Witherweaver
silverspawn

where I'm very open to the possibility of anyone from Ashersky up being scum and not super sure about any of them, except that I have a really good feeling about silver.

In a way, e, even your "list 3 reasons" thing is a little scummy. If there is a good chance that Haddock is town, that's a good reason not to lynch him. I don't need any more reasons.

[iguanaiguana]

Also, I think Ashersky coming in while drunk and posting is pretty towny. I mean, has scum done that, like, ever?

[2.71828.....]

Also, I think Ashersky coming in while drunk and posting is pretty towny. I mean, has scum done that, like, ever?

If I can't find an example game remind me next time I am scum.

[iguanaiguana]

Also, I think Ashersky coming in while drunk and posting is pretty towny. I mean, has scum done that, like, ever?

If I can't find an example game remind me next time I am scum.

Hopefully next you are scum we can be partners, that would be fun!

[Witherweaver]

Also, I think Ashersky coming in while drunk and posting is pretty towny. I mean, has scum done that, like, ever?

They have.

[iguanaiguana]

Also, I think Ashersky coming in while drunk and posting is pretty towny. I mean, has scum done that, like, ever?

They have.

You know where?

[Witherweaver]

Also, I think Ashersky coming in while drunk and posting is pretty towny. I mean, has scum done that, like, ever?

They have.

You know where?

I plead the fifth.

[iguanaiguana]

Also, I think Ashersky coming in while drunk and posting is pretty towny. I mean, has scum done that, like, ever?

They have.

You know where?

I plead the fifth.

You mean you're scum here, and drunk right now? And all we need to do is look through your backlog of games and we'll all realize it and lynch you?

Man, that's too many games. I'm gunna keep my vote on your partner.

[ashersky]

I thin it was like m5 or something.  Kickball.

[iguanaiguana]

I thin it was like m5 or something.  Kickball.

Ash: quick, don't think too hard about this.

Are you scum or town?

[ashersky]

To

I'm crying from laughing

[ashersky]

I'm vt

[ashersky]

Other thread shit funny shit

[iguanaiguana]

Oh are we doing a mass claim now?

[silverspawn]

no.

[iguanaiguana]

Yeah I know. His claim was kinda unfortunate.

[2.71828.....]

Yeah I know. His claim was kinda unfortunate.

Yeah, you day that after you drew him into the claim. Srsly though

[2.71828.....]

Yeah I know. His claim was kinda unfortunate.

Yeah, you say that after you drew him into the claim. Srsly though

Autocorrect

[iguanaiguana]

It's not what I was trying to do.

[silverspawn]

I don't think you can blame igu for this

[Haddock]

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

Sigh...

Wood color

This is magnificent.  All of ash's posts here.  Love drunk ash.  I really hope this is real, but MAYBE I could see ash faking being drunk?  Dunno why though...  Actually his VT claim mixed in there gives a motive for scum to fake this, a drunk VT claim potentially looking townier than a sober one, particularly from ash.  I really think ash has to be way WAY drunk to claim VT like this...

Oh, game-related stuff?  Why is ss scum? I think haddock has been much scummier.

Scratch that question. Terribly hard to answer while drunk.

Better: list 3 reasons to NOT vote for haddock

(Still, not a question, I know. But lists are easier to do)

Here's my problem. You and Haddock are very similar cases. It's all rhetoric analysis and you're both good enough at rhetoric that it's hard to do, especially on D1. Maybe Haddock is scum, and if he is I hope that by D2 or D3 we can figure that out.

But right now I don't see it. So what I've got is this:

...

In a way, e, even your "list 3 reasons" thing is a little scummy. If there is a good chance that Haddock is town, that's a good reason not to lynch him. I don't need any more reasons.

<3
Loving this.

It's a shame that it's mixed in with what I consider to be the first thing igu has said which has been mildly scummy, namely the following hedgetyhedgehedge.

Towniest > Scummiest
<list>

where I'm very open to the possibility of anyone from Ashersky up being scum and not super sure about any of them, ...

I don't agree that hedging is automatically scummy, I think it's a player meta thing.  And I don't think igu is usually particularly hedgey.  So this is slightly off. 
I still think he's towny overall though.


I always always find SS scummy on D1, so that's pushing me away from an SS vote.

WW still not contributing anything real, so I could vote there at this point.  Then again Joseph has actually said nothing at all, so I will leave my vote there.

Also, Request prod on Hydrad.

PPE stuff.  Oh, e, dude.  That's so so weak.  Don't try to put suspicion on igu for that.

[iguanaiguana]

HEDGEY???

Let's be clear, I want to lynch SILVER.

[Haddock]

You hedged epically as regards to your top town reads.

Look, I hedge all the time.  So I don't necessarily see your hedging as scummy.  But you ARE hedging.

[silverspawn]

HEDGEY???

Let's be clear, I want to lynch SILVER.

no, *hedgy, and *silver.

(sorry)

[silverspawn]

vote: e

[gkrieg13]

prod sent

[iguanaiguana]

You hedged epically as regards to your top town reads.

Look, I hedge all the time.  So I don't necessarily see your hedging as scummy.  But you ARE hedging.

When I said Ashersky up I meant everyone scummier than ashersky including Ashersky. So probably I should have said from Ashersky down... Is that what you found hedgey?

[Hydrad]

ahha I'm here. I have my master plan. As an IC i'll play soooo poorly that scum won't want to kill me. and then we get to mylo and i'm still alive. Its perfect.

On a serious note I still have no idea whats happening this game. funnily enough drunk ash is actually making the game move foward a bit so thats good.

[Joseph2302]

ahha I'm here. I have my master plan. As an IC i'll play soooo poorly that scum won't want to kill me. and then we get to mylo and i'm still alive. Its perfect.

On a serious note I still have no idea whats happening this game. funnily enough drunk ash is actually making the game move foward a bit so thats good.

Agree, need more drunk Ash to keep the game active.

[Joseph2302]

Also, I'll post more later- currently it's 6:30am here and I haven't slept yet.

[Witherweaver]

ahha I'm here. I have my master plan. As an IC i'll play soooo poorly that scum won't want to kill me. and then we get to mylo and i'm still alive. Its perfect.

On a serious note I still have no idea whats happening this game. funnily enough drunk ash is actually making the game move foward a bit so thats good.

Maybe you should get drunk then.

[iguanaiguana]

ahha I'm here. I have my master plan. As an IC i'll play soooo poorly that scum won't want to kill me. and then we get to mylo and i'm still alive. Its perfect.

On a serious note I still have no idea whats happening this game. funnily enough drunk ash is actually making the game move foward a bit so thats good.

Agree, need more drunk Ash to keep the game active.

Joseph, your vote is on Ash. Are you still thinking he's scummy after his latest drinking binge?

[Haddock]

You hedged epically as regards to your top town reads.

Look, I hedge all the time.  So I don't necessarily see your hedging as scummy.  But you ARE hedging.

When I said Ashersky up I meant everyone scummier than ashersky including Ashersky. So probably I should have said from Ashersky down... Is that what you found hedgey?

Ohhhhh... Yeah that makes more sense.

[iguanaiguana]

You hedged epically as regards to your top town reads.

Look, I hedge all the time.  So I don't necessarily see your hedging as scummy.  But you ARE hedging.

When I said Ashersky up I meant everyone scummier than ashersky including Ashersky. So probably I should have said from Ashersky down... Is that what you found hedgey?

Ohhhhh... Yeah that makes more sense.

Actually, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear your definition of hedging because you use the word a lot.

Not exactly related to this game but I think it would help us communicate in the future.

[Haddock]

You hedged epically as regards to your top town reads.

Look, I hedge all the time.  So I don't necessarily see your hedging as scummy.  But you ARE hedging.

When I said Ashersky up I meant everyone scummier than ashersky including Ashersky. So probably I should have said from Ashersky down... Is that what you found hedgey?

Ohhhhh... Yeah that makes more sense.

Actually, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear your definition of hedging because you use the word a lot.

Not exactly related to this game but I think it would help us communicate in the future.

I do?  I really don't think I've ever before accused someone else of being hedgey.  I've been accused of it before so I've been forced to use the term.

But OK.


To hedge: to make a statement which leaves all possibilities open (presumably with the intention of being allowed to change one's mind later without looking terrible).
eg.  "I think X is towny, but you never know, he could still be scum I guess."


Again: I really don't think hedging is outright scummy, because most town aren't confident enough to make a read without wanting to temper it.

[Joseph2302]

ahha I'm here. I have my master plan. As an IC i'll play soooo poorly that scum won't want to kill me. and then we get to mylo and i'm still alive. Its perfect.

On a serious note I still have no idea whats happening this game. funnily enough drunk ash is actually making the game move foward a bit so thats good.

Agree, need more drunk Ash to keep the game active.

Joseph, your vote is on Ash. Are you still thinking he's scummy after his latest drinking binge?

Rereading now.

[Joseph2302]

So ash..
Lots of don't make much sense posts, followed by a VT claim.
Either this is a very clever ruse- which seems unlikely from the lack of any quality in his typing prior to the claim- or it's a genuine claim.

I think it must be the latter, so Unvote: ash.

[Joseph2302]

I don't think you can blame igu for this

Me neither, doesn't look like anyone expected ash to claim.

[Joseph2302]

So, let's try and get the game moving, I'm going to post a possible lynch list/summary of claims made:

1. Joseph2302 me, claimed VT
2. Awaclus - lots of posting, seems pro-town to me
3. silverspawn - nothing to claim
4. ashersky - proposed the plan, but didn't claim himself (convenient?)
5. Haddock - nothing to claim, getting a mild scum feel from him
6. Iguanaiguana - claimed to have witness modifier, first claimer = most likely town, seems towny in general
7. 2.71828..... - nothing to claim
8. Witherweaver - claimed Mason #130, but I think that was a joke? Not much else to go on
9. Hydrad - claimed weak vig, seems towny in general

I think the scum are hiding in those that didn't claim (it's the safest place after all), so these claims have just given everyone (including scum) a bit of setup info.
And I think scum!ash would know that this sort of claims would be easy for scum to hide in.
Therefore, I'm leaning towards Vote: ash.

So this leaves me with a potential lynchpool of ss, Haddock, e or WW now.
I guess back to Vote: Haddock for now.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Joseph

[ashersky]

So...caught up.  That's hilarious or embarrassing.  Or both.

[gkrieg13]

"Singing in the shower is all fun and games until you get shampoo in your mouth.  Then it's a soap opera"

Vote Count 1.5
Joseph2302 (2): Haddock, WW
Haddock (3): 2.7,  Awaclus, Joseph2302
ss (3): Hydrad, iguanaiguana, ashersky
2.7 (1): ss

Not voting (0):

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM

[ashersky]

We have three days to go.

Someone else should drink and post.

[Haddock]

So...caught up.  That's hilarious or embarrassing.  Or both.

+1

So, let's try and get the game moving, I'm going to post a possible lynch list/summary of claims made:

1. Joseph2302 me, claimed VT
2. Awaclus - lots of posting, seems pro-town to me
3. silverspawn - nothing to claim
4. ashersky - proposed the plan, but didn't claim himself (convenient?)
5. Haddock - nothing to claim, getting a mild scum feel from him
6. Iguanaiguana - claimed to have witness modifier, first claimer = most likely town, seems towny in general
7. 2.71828..... - nothing to claim
8. Witherweaver - claimed Mason #130, but I think that was a joke? Not much else to go on
9. Hydrad - claimed weak vig, seems towny in general

I think the scum are hiding in those that didn't claim (it's the safest place after all), so these claims have just given everyone (including scum) a bit of setup info.
And I think scum!ash would know that this sort of claims would be easy for scum to hide in.
Therefore, I'm leaning towards Vote: ash.

So this leaves me with a potential lynchpool of ss, Haddock, e or WW now.
I guess back to Vote: Haddock for now.

I forget.  Did you present a case against me originally?  If not, can you do so now? 
I still think your voting history is scummy to heck and back.

[Joseph2302]

We have three days to go.

Someone else should drink and post.

Well I've just started drinking today. Give it a few hours, see what happens.

[iguanaiguana]

So, let's try and get the game moving, I'm going to post a possible lynch list/summary of claims made:

1. Joseph2302 me, claimed VT
2. Awaclus - lots of posting, seems pro-town to me
3. silverspawn - nothing to claim
4. ashersky - proposed the plan, but didn't claim himself (convenient?)
5. Haddock - nothing to claim, getting a mild scum feel from him
6. Iguanaiguana - claimed to have witness modifier, first claimer = most likely town, seems towny in general
7. 2.71828..... - nothing to claim
8. Witherweaver - claimed Mason #130, but I think that was a joke? Not much else to go on
9. Hydrad - claimed weak vig, seems towny in general

I think the scum are hiding in those that didn't claim (it's the safest place after all), so these claims have just given everyone (including scum) a bit of setup info.
And I think scum!ash would know that this sort of claims would be easy for scum to hide in.
Therefore, I'm leaning towards Vote: ash.

So this leaves me with a potential lynchpool of ss, Haddock, e or WW now.
I guess back to Vote: Haddock for now.

Why Haddock?

[iguanaiguana]

Maybe it's the great unanswerable question.

[Joseph2302]

Maybe it's the great unanswerable question.

Why not? There's not a good case on anyone really, and from memory there was a wagon/case on him before.

[iguanaiguana]

Maybe it's the great unanswerable question.

Why not? There's not a good case on anyone really, and from memory there was a wagon/case on him before.

Do you know what.. that case... was?

e said some scummy things about how Haddock is scum, that's all I've seen.

[Haddock]

Yeah to my knowledge noone has presented a case better than e's, and that was pretty weak:
a combination of PoE and comments about some things I said when I misunderstood him thanks to his typo.

Joseph, your voting me and "thinking there was already a case" means one of two things:

1) you're town but really need to pay more attention.
2) you're scum.

I could believe either, but since I already think you're scummy...

[2.71828.....]

So, I like mass claims now.

Just looking at the numbers, there is no way we lose this setup.  4 PRs against 2 scum. Like, seriously.

What happens in a massclaim? If only 4 people claim PRs then they are all ICs and town wins. If 5+ people claim PRs we now have a limited lynch pool and can choose from there.

I mean, look at the numbers. 2 VT claims mean right now at most 7 people claim PRs. But really at most it will be 6 people because town doesn't lie, RIGHT?

If we have 6 prs claim, my lynch pool is down to that (+/- my claim, obvs), except I believe igu and hydrad so even less. If scum decides one claim/one doesn't claim (which they can't talk about with no daychat) then we still have limited lynch pools eventually when we catch one.

Regardless, I like a massclaim. I won't claim yet until we talk a bit. But I feel like we can destroy scum with a plan like this kind of like the way my team in village mafia got destroyed

[iguanaiguana]

I mean, probably their JoAT claims a PR and their goon claims vanilla. So wouldn't we actually get better odds lynching a VT?

[2.71828.....]

Yeah, I mean a claim divides is 5/4 probably. PR/non-PR. Then in each respective pool you have really good PoE

[Witherweaver]

So, I like mass claims now.

Just looking at the numbers, there is no way we lose this setup.  4 PRs against 2 scum. Like, seriously.

What happens in a massclaim? If only 4 people claim PRs then they are all ICs and town wins. If 5+ people claim PRs we now have a limited lynch pool and can choose from there.

I mean, look at the numbers. 2 VT claims mean right now at most 7 people claim PRs. But really at most it will be 6 people because town doesn't lie, RIGHT?

If we have 6 prs claim, my lynch pool is down to that (+/- my claim, obvs), except I believe igu and hydrad so even less. If scum decides one claim/one doesn't claim (which they can't talk about with no daychat) then we still have limited lynch pools eventually when we catch one.

Regardless, I like a massclaim. I won't claim yet until we talk a bit. But I feel like we can destroy scum with a plan like this kind of like the way my team in village mafia got destroyed

So you're saying you and Ash are scum?

[2.71828.....]

So you're saying you and Ash are scum?

No. I am saying you could totally be scum

[silverspawn]

okay, I'm on board with a massclaim.

[2.71828.....]

Although, I don't think we actually have to do a full role-claim. But a full modifier-claim.

That keeps scum guessing as to the actual roles that town has, thereby keeping some of towns power (especially in the case of investigation roles)

[silverspawn]

also agree with that.

[Witherweaver]

I'm down.  Especially considering we're like 1/3--1/2 way done already.

[Witherweaver]

Also,

Vote: Haddock

[Witherweaver]

I also don't have a rubbish role to report.

Someone said it was WW who tried to turn this into a mass claim.  But wasn't it e who first did that?

Yes it was I believe.
Vote: e seems okay for now.

Sorry, mistake above,

Vote: Joseph

[Haddock]

Also,

Vote: Haddock

Um, what?

I half-assumed that your vote on Joseph was on the back of his incredibly scummy vote on me.
Apparently not.

This is L-1.
Obviously I'm considering claiming, noone hammer please.  Oh it would also be nice if someone would be sensible about this and unvote.  There is no case here.
PPE.  OK that makes more sense.  But weren't you already voting Joseph (before that vote on me just now)?

I'm on board with a mass modifier claim I think.

[Witherweaver]

Also,

Vote: Haddock

Um, what?

I half-assumed that your vote on Joseph was on the back of his incredibly scummy vote on me.
Apparently not.

This is L-1.
Obviously I'm considering claiming, noone hammer please.  Oh it would also be nice if someone would be sensible about this and unvote.  There is no case here.
PPE.  OK that makes more sense.  But weren't you already voting Joseph (before that vote on me just now)?

I'm on board with a mass modifier claim I think.

Yes, but then I remembered that someone jumped on e for sort-of proposing a massclaim before, and it occurred to me, that's the kind of thing that scum would do because they think that's the kind of thing that town would do and they want to look protown.  Then it occurred to me that that person was you.

Then I looked back, and I was wrong.

[iguanaiguana]

In the mass modifier claim, I should claim last, except that I already claimed first.

Here's an order:

WW
silver
e
Haddock
Awaclus

Any disagreements?

[Joseph2302]

Yeah to my knowledge noone has presented a case better than e's, and that was pretty weak:
a combination of PoE and comments about some things I said when I misunderstood him thanks to his typo.

Joseph, your voting me and "thinking there was already a case" means one of two things:

1) you're town but really need to pay more attention.
2) you're scum.

I could believe either, but since I already think you're scummy...

It's 1), with me also needing to commit more time to this game.
Unfortunately as I'm on holiday Wednesday - Saturday, I'll probably be committing less time instead.

[Witherweaver]

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

Next.

[2.71828.....]

It will be night during that time, so you just won't be able to put your kill order in (speaking to joseph)

[iguanaiguana]

Joseph's town guys. He's acting like SK, and there's no serial killer this game.

[silverspawn]

VT

[Joseph2302]

Although, I don't think we actually have to do a full role-claim. But a full modifier-claim.

That keeps scum guessing as to the actual roles that town has, thereby keeping some of towns power (especially in the case of investigation roles)

I agree, seems like the best way to lower our lynchpool, but keeping town with the power in the game.
The suggestion also makes me think slightly towny of e.

PPE: 4

[2.71828.....]

Insane

[Haddock]

The order's fine I think, but can we stop until Awaclus has agreed with the claim idea?

[Haddock]

Oh it's already my turn?

Well OK then.

Loud

[silverspawn]

3 VT's already. interesting.

[Joseph2302]

Okay, so me, ash, WW and ss have all claimed VT.
This guarantees someone is lying, since the setup only has 3 VTs.

[iguanaiguana]

why does everything always get fun right as I'm going to work???

cyall

[2.71828.....]

why does everything always get fun right as I'm going to work???

cyall

I am at work....

[silverspawn]

Joseph2302 - VT
Awaclus - ?
silverspawn - VT
ashersky - VT
Haddock - Loud
Iguanaiguana - Witness
2.71828..... - Insane
Witherweaver - VT
Hydrad - Weak

[Haddock]

Okay, so me, ash, WW and ss have all claimed VT.
This guarantees someone is lying, since the setup only has 3 VTs.

OK so to my mind the order of those, scummy to towny, is:

Joseph, WW, ss, ash.

[silverspawn]

well, we already know that Awaclus will claim a PR. Unless he's a VT, in which case scum already lost the game.

so this is mostly useful for when we lynch 1 scum. That means a lot of IC's.

[silverspawn]

I think I'm looking at Joseph or WW here. Although it might be a big mistake to give ash a pass.

[2.71828.....]

I think I'm looking at Joseph or WW here. Although it might be a big mistake to give ash a pass.

I think ash claims the PR as scum here. But yeah.

[silverspawn]

I think I'm looking at Joseph or WW here. Although it might be a big mistake to give ash a pass.

I think ash claims the PR as scum here. But yeah.

Good point. Let's give him a pass, then.

[silverspawn]

This is the most important decision of the entire game, probably. If we lynch correctly here, the game is almost won.

[Joseph2302]

This is the most important decision of the entire game, probably. If we lynch correctly here, the game is almost won.

I agree.
However, why are we giving ash the pass? For semi-seriously claiming VT, something which he hasn't properly confirmed (when sobre).

[Haddock]

I'm not giving him a pass, I just think he's townies than the other 3.  The drunk posts help but are not everything.

[Haddock]

*townier

[Joseph2302]

I'm not giving him a pass, I just think he's townies than the other 3.  The drunk posts help but are not everything.

For reference, I was referring to ss reply #376.

[Awaclus]

Unless he's a VT, in which case scum already lost the game.

That is the case!

[Awaclus]

Also I think that ash should claim again some time when he's not drunk.

[2.71828.....]

This is nice

[2.71828.....]

Also I think that ash should claim again some time when he's not drunk.

Switch a claim? No, lynch all liars

[Haddock]

I'm not giving him a pass, I just think he's townies than the other 3.  The drunk posts help but are not everything.

For reference, I was referring to ss reply #376.

I did not see that post. Cool, gotcha now.

[2.71828.....]

Unvote for now

[Haddock]

What do you mean, "for now"?
We have 4 claimed PRs and the setup has 4 PRs.
That makes us all ICs.

[Joseph2302]

Also I think that ash should claim again some time when he's not drunk.

I agree.
Right now I can't tell if his VT claim was meant to be serious, or a joke like the rest of his posts last night.

PPE: 1

[2.71828.....]

I mean, I don't know which vt to lynch. So for now I am not voting.

[Haddock]

Right OK.

Sorry, that last post was a bit brusque. Not intentional.

Echoing igus statments: sorry to leave as it gets interesting, but sleep time.

[Awaclus]

Also I think that ash should claim again some time when he's not drunk.

Switch a claim? No, lynch all liars

I don't know if he's going to switch or not, I just don't feel very comfortable with assigning much value to anything anyone says while they're drunk.

[silverspawn]

woah. okay.

[Joseph2302]

Also I think that ash should claim again some time when he's not drunk.

Switch a claim? No, lynch all liars

I don't know if he's going to switch or not, I just don't feel very comfortable with assigning much value to anything anyone says while they're drunk.

Kind of agree, which it why it would be nice if he came online whilst sober and either confirmed or changed his claim.

[Joseph2302]

Also, Unvote
Since there's currently the correct number of PRs claimed and the wrong number of VTs, think we should be looking to vote on the VTs instead.

[Witherweaver]

Joseph2302 - VT
Awaclus - ?
silverspawn - VT
ashersky - VT
Haddock - Loud
Iguanaiguana - Witness
2.71828..... - Insane
Witherweaver - VT
Hydrad - Weak

So 2 scum in

{Joseph, Awaclus, Silver, Ash}. 

I could do any of these really.  Maybe Joseph/Silver preferable to Awaclus/Ash. 

[Joseph2302]

Unless he's a VT, in which case scum already lost the game.

That is the case!

Missed this earlier- Awaclus is also claiming VT it seems.

[iguanaiguana]

First of all, Unvote for now

Now I’m going to run some worst case scenarios.

Worst Case Scenario if Hydrad shoots N1:

D1: Lynch VT (town) (8 players remain, 2 scum)
N1: Hydrad shoots VT (town), scum kills PR (Hydrad). No other PRs do anything useful (6 players left, 2 scum)
D2: start with 3 PRs, 1 VT, 2 scum; Lynch VT (town) (5 players left, 2 scum)
N2: (Scum kills 1 PR); no PRs find anything useful.
D3: Starts with 2 PRs, 2 scum; scum win.

So if Hydrad shoots a VT and hits tonight, the only way scum win is if we kill literally every single actual VT before we manage to kill scum. Bad odds for scum, but still possible to win.

[iguanaiguana]

Worst Case Scenario if no one uses ANY PR successfully:

D1: Lynch VT (town) (8 players left, 2 scum)
N1: Scum kills 1 PR (7 players left, 2 scum)
D2: 3 PRs, 2 VT, 2 scum; Lynch VT (town) (6 players left, 2 scum)
N2: Scum kills 1 PR (5 players left, 2 scum)
D3 2PRs, 1VT, 2 scum; Lynch VT (town) (4 players left, 2 scum; scum wins)

[iguanaiguana]

So basically, we need lynch one scum in three tries, and we win the game. Scum is essentially in the opposite of a triple MyLo situation. They need to get three mislynches through on exactly three players to win the game (or at least get Hydrad to kill one of them for them).

[iguanaiguana]

I guess it looks like Hydrad NOT shooting is still best for us tonight. It doesn't improve our worst case scenario at all and the longer we delay, the more likely that one of our PRs can find scum, or save someone from a NK, or what have you.

[iguanaiguana]

Now, on to reads. I guess my lynch priorities are like this now:

Witherweaver > silver > Joseph > Ashersky > Awaclus.

So Awaclus is the towniest now, and here's why: he claimed last. I don't know exactly how scum got pigeonholed into both claiming VT, but I'm guessing it has to do with being afraid of claiming the same modifier as someone else and getting caught that way. With Awaclus as the last to claim, there's just no way he claims VT as scum. That's way too dangerous for him. And he's smart enough to read the situation and be aware of the horrible odds for scum if he claims VT.

For the same reason that Awaclus' claim is credible, Ash and Joseph's claims are now less credible, because unless both of them are scum, scum!them wouldn't have known that their partner would later claim a PR. I'd go ahead and say that Ash/Joseph is probably an unlikely pairing though. It's unlikely that they both gambit to "accidentally" claim VT in order to win. Well, then again, Ash claimed masons with Gkrieg. So maybe he would try something that stupid.

At any rate, here's the even MORE clinch thing: The most unlikely pairing is probably Ash/Awaclus. Let's not forget about their fight at the beginning of the day. Ash said agreeing with Awaclus was scummy, Awaclus said "some stuff" (I'm not going to try to repeat it, lol). It seemed pretty authentic. It didn't look like scum partners at all. So basically, as long we don't lynch one of these two, and they aren't partners, we win the game. Hey, that's good odds. I'm (almost!) willing to bet the game on those odds.

Finally, why WW? Well here's the thing. This is something I noticed about WW in simply simpler. When he's scum, his fake reads suck. Like, go look up my neighborhood with WW in Simply Simpler where he tried to encourage me to lynch literally the weakest town players in the game. And he's doing the same thing here: picking on people calling them scummy and ignoring others' (and his own) actual scummy behavior.

As for silver, I'm inclined to let him live one more day. I think he's probably scum and his interactions with WW (well, more like WW's ignoring him) has been very partnery, but he has been a lot townier since I called him out on being scum. So as much as I think that he's actually just acting towny out of self-preservation because someone noticed that he's scum for once, I don't think he's the BEST lynch for today.

My lynch pool is basically the top three. I think an Ash or Awaclus lynch is pretty bad.

[iguanaiguana]

Though WW, if you want, go ahead and humour me with one big bright bold and beautiful essay about why you are town here, despite not doing a towny thing the entire game.

Until then,

Vote: WW

[iguanaiguana]

Actually, no,

Unvote

No one should vote for real until all 4 ICs agree on who to lynch. After that, we can all vote and any VT claimer can hammer. This solution gives scum the least control over who we lynch.

For now my "vote" is on WW, but I want to hear from Hydrad, e, and Haddock.

[2.71828.....]

As you outlined earlier, there is absolutely no reason that we need to be afraid of a lynch

I appreciate the gesture, but it is unnecessary. Keep your vote

[Hydrad]

wow now that you say it like that it looks like we are pretty favored.

sounds good to me

[Witherweaver]

Sorry, whose scummy behavior am I ignoring?  I liked rest of the post, but the part about me feels forced and arbitrary.

And in my neighborhood in my scum game, my only goal the was to make you think I was town, not direct your reads one way or the other.

[2.71828.....]

I feel like vote: Joseph

sounds fun right now

[iguanaiguana]

Sorry, whose scummy behavior am I ignoring?  I liked rest of the post, but the part about me feels forced and arbitrary.

And in my neighborhood in my scum game, my only goal the was to make you think I was town, not direct your reads one way or the other.

Well, you know I'm being authentic at this point at least! The person you've commented on very little is silver.

In our neighborhood, you called Roadrunner scummiest, then Hydrad, then Ampharos and Jimmmmm. All of those people were town. It was the scummiest thing you said in our neighborhood. It was a 'pick on the less active/newer players' strategy, and I'm arguing you're doing the  same here, just with less content and more lurking.

[iguanaiguana]

As you outlined earlier, there is absolutely no reason that we need to be afraid of a lynch

I appreciate the gesture, but it is unnecessary. Keep your vote

I am just thinking along the lines of turning our 90-93% chance of winning into far more of a chance of winning than people think.

[2.71828.....]

As you outlined earlier, there is absolutely no reason that we need to be afraid of a lynch

I appreciate the gesture, but it is unnecessary. Keep your vote

I am just thinking along the lines of turning our 90-93% chance of winning into far more of a chance of winning than people think.

Then just vote for joseph and lynch scum.

[iguanaiguana]

As you outlined earlier, there is absolutely no reason that we need to be afraid of a lynch

I appreciate the gesture, but it is unnecessary. Keep your vote

I am just thinking along the lines of turning our 90-93% chance of winning into far more of a chance of winning than people think.

Then just vote for joseph and lynch scum.

Remember when you were saying that about Haddock?

[2.71828.....]

As you outlined earlier, there is absolutely no reason that we need to be afraid of a lynch

I appreciate the gesture, but it is unnecessary. Keep your vote

I am just thinking along the lines of turning our 90-93% chance of winning into far more of a chance of winning than people think.

Then just vote for joseph and lynch scum.

Remember when you were saying that about Haddock?

Ancient history.

[ashersky]

Caught up.  Still a VT.

If 2.7 wasn't confirmed town, he could be me from Village Mafia and yet he'd be MVP as either alignment.

Can't we literally just Lynch any VTs we like in any order and have a very high probability of winning?

I think all VTs should list other VTs in scummy to towny order.  Then the ICs can just decide who to Lynch every day.

My strongest town reads all ended up ICs.

I'd say ss - ww/Awaclus - joseph is my order.

[iguanaiguana]

I like this fiery iguana we have here. Maybe we should call him a dragon rather than an iguana

Everyone's like "We have a high probability of winning" but I wasn't kidding at the start when I was saying I really really really want to win

[ashersky]

VTs: Joseph, Awaclus, ss, ashersky, WW

Haddock: Loud
iguana: Witness
2.7: Insane
Hydrad: Weak

Updated.

All I can say is, what the ploop?  Only Hydrad followed my plan when 2.7 and igu should have as well.

[ashersky]

Hmmm...so do we think the "insane" modifier works on all roles?  So an insane jailkeeper makes his target macho and strongwilled?

Loud is whatever.  Confirmable role.  Weak Vig is just a win.  I don't think Witness matters here, given all PRs are ICs.

Insane is the only worry.  If it doesn't work on non-investigative roles, it's basically a non-issue.

[ashersky]

My gut is Haddock, iguana, and Hydrad should use their powers at night.  2.7 should confirm whether insane messes with his specific role before deciding.  If he could end up strengthening scum by doing the opposite of whatever it is he does, (or killing town by being an insane doc or something that kills), he should not use his power.

[Hydrad]

My gut is Haddock, iguana, and Hydrad should use their powers at night.  2.7 should confirm whether insane messes with his specific role before deciding.  If he could end up strengthening scum by doing the opposite of whatever it is he does, (or killing town by being an insane doc or something that kills), he should not use his power.

oh? You know i'm pretty much going to kill a townie. I'm suuuper bad at finding scum with vig.

[Hydrad]

My gut is Haddock, iguana, and Hydrad should use their powers at night.  2.7 should confirm whether insane messes with his specific role before deciding.  If he could end up strengthening scum by doing the opposite of whatever it is he does, (or killing town by being an insane doc or something that kills), he should not use his power.

oh? You know i'm pretty much going to kill a townie. I'm suuuper bad at finding scum with vig.

actually maybe I can just roll a die. That might work out better then me trusting myself.

[ashersky]

So basically, we need lynch one scum in three tries, and we win the game. Scum is essentially in the opposite of a triple MyLo situation. They need to get three mislynches through on exactly three players to win the game (or at least get Hydrad to kill one of them for them).

I think you are looking at this wrong.

We have to catch 2 scum in 5 players.  We have two mislynches to burn.  The rest is ancillary to the whole thing.  Literally, the 4 PRs could do nothing and they're still ICs.  Just think of the setup as 4 ICs, 3 VTs, 2 scum.

I laid out how I think powers should play out.  I'm thinking Hydrad shooting is best.  Worst!Hydrad scenario:

D1 mislynch VT
N1 vig VT + NK PR
D2 mislynch VT
N2...Hydrad has 2 VTs to choose from.  He has a 100% chance of killing scum (and himself).
D3 LYLO with 1 vs 2

That's the "worst case" in this.  It basically guarantees scum has to try to kill Hydrad on N1.

This is all assuming none of the VTs are lying town (WW...?).

[Hydrad]

So basically, we need lynch one scum in three tries, and we win the game. Scum is essentially in the opposite of a triple MyLo situation. They need to get three mislynches through on exactly three players to win the game (or at least get Hydrad to kill one of them for them).

I think you are looking at this wrong.

We have to catch 2 scum in 5 players.  We have two mislynches to burn.  The rest is ancillary to the whole thing.  Literally, the 4 PRs could do nothing and they're still ICs.  Just think of the setup as 4 ICs, 3 VTs, 2 scum.

I laid out how I think powers should play out.  I'm thinking Hydrad shooting is best.  Worst!Hydrad scenario:

D1 mislynch VT
N1 vig VT + NK PR
D2 mislynch VT
N2...Hydrad has 2 VTs to choose from.  He has a 100% chance of killing scum (and himself).
D3 LYLO with 1 vs 2

That's the "worst case" in this.  It basically guarantees scum has to try to kill Hydrad on N1.

This is all assuming none of the VTs are lying town (WW...?).

ah sounds good!

[Joseph2302]

This is all assuming none of the VTs are lying town (WW...?).

Hope not, this had better not be like my RMM30 QT again....

[ashersky]

This is all assuming none of the VTs are lying town (WW...?).

Hope not, this had better not be like my RMM30 QT again....

It's been a trend lately, so I wanted to explicitly rule it out.

Lying as town is definitely far more skippable than you think.  So skip it.  Please.

[Hydrad]

This is all assuming none of the VTs are lying town (WW...?).

Hope not, this had better not be like my RMM30 QT again....

It's been a trend lately, so I wanted to explicitly rule it out.

Lying as town is definitely far more skippable than you think.  So skip it.  Please.

but if you lie and it works you look amazing afterwards!

Unfortuantly it seems like lieing just messes everyone up more then helps usually.

[Haddock]

90-93% of the time, lying as town puts you in the shit.

I'm liking my Joseph vote a bit less than I did now.  Could perhaps switch to WW. Thinking.

I agree awa is basically conf!town now, scum definitely claims the pr there.

[ashersky]

I still think it's SS.

[Joseph2302]

Right now I think WW, so Vote: WW.

[Joseph2302]

Also, I'm going on holiday til Saturday, so will be less active.

[Haddock]

I still think it's SS.

There's a 50% chance you're right.

Not to jump the gun, but I feel bad for scum this game.  It already feels like they're going to have a very tough time winning it.

[silverspawn]

I still think it's SS.

You always think it's ss.

[silverspawn]

there is no way I claim VT as scum, so you should treat me as an IC.

I think the most likely team is Joseph and ashersky. Ash had his debacle with claiming VT, and Joseph is most likely not to realize that he has to claim a PR.

I like vote: ash

[silverspawn]

Also see this reaction to the proposed plan. After 3 people have already agreed, he casually creeps along.

Seems fine to me.
Although isn't this just a way of breaking/solving the setup? In which case it's good for town probably.

[silverspawn]

Let's look at the claiming order (VT's in Black).

iguana
Hydrad
Joseph
ashersky
WW
silver
2,71...
Haddock
Awaclus

Yeah, definitely ash and Joseph. That's by far the simplest explanation.

[Haddock]

I still prefer Joseph to ash, but I have just remembered a thing.

A while back ash made a post about me and Awa maybe being a scumteam.  It then got blown out of proportion a bit.  Ash retracted the original post, saying it was a joke, but then made the comment "the way it's blown up makes me think it might be true", or something on those lines.  All fair enough, and I didn't make a big deal of this earlier because I knew it would look OMGUSy as hell on my part, but I'm going to mention it now. 

In light of Awa and I being conf!town (well, only ALMOST conf town in Awa's case, I guess), Ash's last post (retracting the original statement while standing by the content of it) looks pretty bad, and could be scum leaving the door open for a mislynch.  In this case his goal would have been to drive a mislynch on Awa, I guess - he's definitely an easier mislynch than me I think.

(Which brings up a point.  Now that I'm conf!town in this game I can predict that at the end of this game I will STILL never have been lynched.  Not that amazing over only 5 or 6 games I guess, but it surprises me a bit, given my tendency to be found scummy on D1.)

[2.71828.....]

Insane is the only worry.  If it doesn't work on non-investigative roles, it's basically a non-issue.

Insane doesn't work on ANY roles if you know you are insane.  You know you are getting opposite results.  In order for sanity to come into play you are required to have no clue that you are actually insane.

Which is why I did not claim earlier.  Insanity has no affect on me.

[ashersky]

there is no way I claim VT as scum, so you should treat me as an IC.

I think the most likely team is Joseph and ashersky. Ash had his debacle with claiming VT, and Joseph is most likely not to realize that he has to claim a PR.

I like vote: ash

Someone quote this post for the definition of OMGUS.

[ashersky]

Insane is the only worry.  If it doesn't work on non-investigative roles, it's basically a non-issue.

Insane doesn't work on ANY roles if you know you are insane.  You know you are getting opposite results.  In order for sanity to come into play you are required to have no clue that you are actually insane.

Which is why I did not claim earlier.  Insanity has no affect on me.

That's not true.

If the Insane modifier flips your power, it makes a doctor a vigilante.  That's definitely an effect.  You are aware of it, yes, but it's still an effect.

[ashersky]

I still prefer Joseph to ash, but I have just remembered a thing.

A while back ash made a post about me and Awa maybe being a scumteam.  It then got blown out of proportion a bit.  Ash retracted the original post, saying it was a joke, but then made the comment "the way it's blown up makes me think it might be true", or something on those lines.  All fair enough, and I didn't make a big deal of this earlier because I knew it would look OMGUSy as hell on my part, but I'm going to mention it now. 

In light of Awa and I being conf!town (well, only ALMOST conf town in Awa's case, I guess), Ash's last post (retracting the original statement while standing by the content of it) looks pretty bad, and could be scum leaving the door open for a mislynch.  In this case his goal would have been to drive a mislynch on Awa, I guess - he's definitely an easier mislynch than me I think.

(Which brings up a point.  Now that I'm conf!town in this game I can predict that at the end of this game I will STILL never have been lynched.  Not that amazing over only 5 or 6 games I guess, but it surprises me a bit, given my tendency to be found scummy on D1.)

What's with everyone "misremembering" things?

I assume you refer to my statement that the act of agreeing with Awaclus is scummy?  And somehow, for some reason, Awaclus connected that to my plan, and then said there had to be 4 scum for my statement to be true?

[ashersky]

Let's look at the claiming order (VT's in Black).

iguana
Hydrad
Joseph
ashersky
WW
silver
2,71...
Haddock
Awaclus

Yeah, definitely ash and Joseph. That's by far the simplest explanation.

This is a nonsensical statement.  Look, I can do it to:

Yeah, definitely SS and Haddock.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely WW and Hydrad.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely Awaclus and Joseph.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely SS and WW.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely Joseph and 2.7.  That's by far the simplest explanation.

See?  When you are allowed to just make declarative sentences with no explanation (also known as awaclusing), it's super easy to look smart and knowledgeable, even if it is total bull.

[ashersky]

Also, easy enough to prove if my theory is right or wrong on SS.

SS, paraphrase all of your QT posts.

[Awaclus]

Let's look at the claiming order (VT's in Black).

iguana
Hydrad
Joseph
ashersky
WW
silver
2,71...
Haddock
Awaclus

Yeah, definitely ash and Joseph. That's by far the simplest explanation.

This is a nonsensical statement.  Look, I can do it to:

Yeah, definitely SS and Haddock.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely WW and Hydrad.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely Awaclus and Joseph.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely SS and WW.  That's by far the simplest explanation.
Yeah, definitely Joseph and 2.7.  That's by far the simplest explanation.

See?  When you are allowed to just make declarative sentences with no explanation (also known as awaclusing), it's super easy to look smart and knowledgeable, even if it is total bull.

But there was an explanation. The simplest one.

[ashersky]

But there was an explanation. The simplest one.

+1

[Haddock]

I still prefer Joseph to ash, but I have just remembered a thing.

A while back ash made a post about me and Awa maybe being a scumteam.  It then got blown out of proportion a bit.  Ash retracted the original post, saying it was a joke, but then made the comment "the way it's blown up makes me think it might be true", or something on those lines.  All fair enough, and I didn't make a big deal of this earlier because I knew it would look OMGUSy as hell on my part, but I'm going to mention it now. 

In light of Awa and I being conf!town (well, only ALMOST conf town in Awa's case, I guess), Ash's last post (retracting the original statement while standing by the content of it) looks pretty bad, and could be scum leaving the door open for a mislynch.  In this case his goal would have been to drive a mislynch on Awa, I guess - he's definitely an easier mislynch than me I think.

(Which brings up a point.  Now that I'm conf!town in this game I can predict that at the end of this game I will STILL never have been lynched.  Not that amazing over only 5 or 6 games I guess, but it surprises me a bit, given my tendency to be found scummy on D1.)

What's with everyone "misremembering" things?

I assume you refer to my statement that the act of agreeing with Awaclus is scummy?  And somehow, for some reason, Awaclus connected that to my plan, and then said there had to be 4 scum for my statement to be true?

I'm referring to this post of yours, which continued to push the idea of Awa and I being scum while simultaneously defusing the original issue:

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

It was mostly a joke, but then it seems to have picked up way more steam than it should have, which makes me think it has something to do with reality.

[Haddock]

Also, easy enough to prove if my theory is right or wrong on SS.

SS, paraphrase all of your QT posts.

I don't necessarily object to the notion here, but I feel like the ICs should be the ones who decide who has to do that kind of thing.

[iguanaiguana]

I still prefer Joseph to ash, but I have just remembered a thing.

A while back ash made a post about me and Awa maybe being a scumteam.  It then got blown out of proportion a bit.  Ash retracted the original post, saying it was a joke, but then made the comment "the way it's blown up makes me think it might be true", or something on those lines.  All fair enough, and I didn't make a big deal of this earlier because I knew it would look OMGUSy as hell on my part, but I'm going to mention it now. 

In light of Awa and I being conf!town (well, only ALMOST conf town in Awa's case, I guess), Ash's last post (retracting the original statement while standing by the content of it) looks pretty bad, and could be scum leaving the door open for a mislynch.  In this case his goal would have been to drive a mislynch on Awa, I guess - he's definitely an easier mislynch than me I think.

(Which brings up a point.  Now that I'm conf!town in this game I can predict that at the end of this game I will STILL never have been lynched.  Not that amazing over only 5 or 6 games I guess, but it surprises me a bit, given my tendency to be found scummy on D1.)

What's with everyone "misremembering" things?

I assume you refer to my statement that the act of agreeing with Awaclus is scummy?  And somehow, for some reason, Awaclus connected that to my plan, and then said there had to be 4 scum for my statement to be true?

There need to be 4 scum? Shit, that makes all scum vt except one then.

[iguanaiguana]

Vote: Joseph is fine. It's not like we only get one try.

[Witherweaver]

I think the townreads for Awaclus not claiming a PR are flawed.  Claiming a PR there probably makes him the first PR we lynch.  Out of context, it's if Mafia are split between the two groups, but that makes it worse if you're the last scum to claim.  That being said, I don't have any particular reason to lynch Awaclus beyond the defacto one.

I think I like SS over Joseph.

Could we get a vote count?

[Haddock]

L-1, I think?  Not sure though.

Can we get a vote count? PPE - great minds.

[silverspawn]

there is no way I claim VT as scum, so you should treat me as an IC.

I think the most likely team is Joseph and ashersky. Ash had his debacle with claiming VT, and Joseph is most likely not to realize that he has to claim a PR.

I like vote: ash

Someone quote this post for the definition of OMGUS.

the funny thing is that it's not OMGUS at all.

[silverspawn]

Also, easy enough to prove if my theory is right or wrong on SS.

SS, paraphrase all of your QT posts.

The whole point of forbidding to quote them is that is that we don't have to put up with this. Asking others to paraphrase them defeats that whole point. So, no.

[ashersky]

I'm referring to this post of yours, which continued to push the idea of Awa and I being scum while simultaneously defusing the original issue:

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

It was mostly a joke, but then it seems to have picked up way more steam than it should have, which makes me think it has something to do with reality.

You misunderstand me.  I am pushing the idea that you are scum.

Like, my original pretense was that agreeing with Awaclus is a scummy action, right?  Like, that doesn't even depend on Awaclus being scum.  The person who does the action (agreeing with Awaclus) is scummy.

So, when you agreed with Awaclus, I said (in other words) "dude that's scummy."  Then there was a bunch of stuff that was distracting and off-base.  Then there seemed to be so much stuff that was distracting and off-base that I wondered if it was on purpose.  Because if it was on purpose, that is also scummy.

You've since claimed PRIC anyway, so it's moot.

[silverspawn]

See ash, the occurrence that requires an explanation is the fact that both scum claimed VT. You accidentally claimed early, and Joseph also claimed early and is the least experienced player. That makes you two, by far, the easiest explanation, and it is why I am currently voting for you.

[ashersky]

Also, easy enough to prove if my theory is right or wrong on SS.

SS, paraphrase all of your QT posts.

The whole point of forbidding to quote them is that is that we don't have to put up with this. Asking others to paraphrase them defeats that whole point. So, no.

Uh no.  Folks paraphrase their role QTs all the time, when claiming.  Paraphrasing is explicitly allowed in standard rules.  Also, I already asked the mod if this was allowed.

What you should be saying is "sorry I can't because I'm scum who didn't take the time to ensure I had stuff ready to paraphrase."

vote: SS.  If he's town, he has a QT full of stuff that he should readily be able to paraphrase.

[ashersky]

See ash, the occurrence that requires an explanation is the fact that both scum claimed VT. You accidentally claimed early, and Joseph also claimed early and is the least experienced player. That makes you two, by far, the easiest explanation, and it is why I am currently voting for you.

Your definition of "early" is one I disagree with.
Your insult of Joseph is also one i disagree with.

[silverspawn]

See ash, the occurrence that requires an explanation is the fact that both scum claimed VT. You accidentally claimed early, and Joseph also claimed early and is the least experienced player. That makes you two, by far, the easiest explanation, and it is why I am currently voting for you.

See ash, the occurrence that requires an explanation is the fact that both scum claimed VT. You accidentally claimed early, and Joseph also claimed early and is the least experienced player. That makes you two, by far, the easiest explanation, and it is why I am currently voting for you.

Your definition of "early" is one I disagree with.
Your insult of Joseph is also one i disagree with.

That is despicable. Now this is an insult.

[silverspawn]

And I will not answer any more of your posts until one of us is lynched. Saying I'm insulting Joseph is more than I have the energy to deal with right now.

[Witherweaver]

So, Ash, paraphrase your QT.

[Roadrunner7671]

"I think that baseball games are like soap operas. If you watch five in a row, you know enough to get hooked. -Jennifer Garner

Vote Count 1.6
Joseph (4): Haddock, WW, 2.7, Iguana
Haddock (1): Awaclus
SS (2): Hydrad, Ashersky
WW (1): Joseph
Ashersky (1): SS

Not Voting (0)

With nine alive it takes five to lynch. D1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM.

[iguanaiguana]

I'm the least experienced player!

So I agree with silver. The Ash/Joseph pairing is the one that makes the most sense of this botched claiming situation. Joseph's play as scum was actually kind of good. At least in my eyes, it gave him some town cred, and allowed him to act like he was lurking and not paying too much attention to the game. At that time he had no clue we were later going to do a mass claim of role modifiers.

Then when Ash claimed, he probably wasn't thinking that both scum claiming VT was bad because, you know, he was under the influence.

There could be other explanations, but the Joseph vote looks really good.

Also, if this is true, I feel kinda bad for going after silver and WW so hard.

[Haddock]

I'm referring to this post of yours, which continued to push the idea of Awa and I being scum while simultaneously defusing the original issue:

Ash, I agree that your comments have been blown way out of proportion by Awa (nothing new there). 

But you've gotta admit your original comment was pretty weaksauce.  People can independently reach the same conclusion without them both being scum.
Sure, maybe it microscopically increases the likelihood - which is probably all you were saying anyway - but let's not get hung up on it.

It was mostly a joke, but then it seems to have picked up way more steam than it should have, which makes me think it has something to do with reality.

You misunderstand me.  I am pushing the idea that you are scum.

Like, my original pretense was that agreeing with Awaclus is a scummy action, right?  Like, that doesn't even depend on Awaclus being scum.  The person who does the action (agreeing with Awaclus) is scummy.

So, when you agreed with Awaclus, I said (in other words) "dude that's scummy."  Then there was a bunch of stuff that was distracting and off-base.  Then there seemed to be so much stuff that was distracting and off-base that I wondered if it was on purpose.  Because if it was on purpose, that is also scummy.

You've since claimed PRIC anyway, so it's moot.

2 things:
1) I wasn't producing any of the distracting off-base stuff.  I didn't agree with you that agreeing with Awa was automatically scummy (and didn't get that it was a joke), and I didn't like that I was being implicated for no good reason.  But largely I thought it best left alone, at the time.

2) OK, so you were pushing the idea that I was scum.  That's kind of my point.  Pushing me-being-scummy (Awa, not Awa, whatever) on the back of something as weak as that looks bad to me, and should now look bad to everyone, since I'm an IC.

[iguanaiguana]

"I think that baseball games are like soap operas. If you watch five in a row, you know enough to get hooked. -Jennifer Garner

Vote Count 1.6
Joseph (4): Haddock, WW, 2.7, Iguana
Haddock (1): Awaclus
SS (2): Hydrad, Ashersky
WW (1): Joseph
Ashersky (1): SS

Not Voting (0)

With nine alive it takes five to lynch. D1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM.

RR, you should do the L-1 thing.

[Roadrunner7671]

"I think that baseball games are like soap operas. If you watch five in a row, you know enough to get hooked. -Jennifer Garner

Vote Count 1.6
Joseph (4): Haddock, WW, 2.7, Iguana
Haddock (1): Awaclus
SS (2): Hydrad, Ashersky
WW (1): Joseph
Ashersky (1): SS

Not Voting (0)

With nine alive it takes five to lynch. D1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM.

RR, you should do the L-1 thing.

Joseph is at L-1.

[iguanaiguana]

Noice!!!

This is why I hammer all RR co-mods.

[Awaclus]

The whole point of forbidding to quote them is that is that we don't have to put up with this. Asking others to paraphrase them defeats that whole point. So, no.

No, the whole point of forbidding to quote them is that we don't have to put up with having 20938475029384705293875092384759387523034 different fake QTs. Now you just have to fabricate one QT on spot, which is challenging, but not impossible.

[iguanaiguana]

This is the gist of my QT:

I say something along the lines of "confirm" (I can't put the / right there or it would be quoting).

Then I say "HeLlZ yEaH, i'M tOwN1"

(capitalization changed to make it a paraphrase)

[ashersky]

So, Ash, paraphrase your QT.

Okay.  Skipping mod interaction, my posts in order:

1 -- I made a post about the plan, which I then posted in the thread.
2 -- I wrote a post about how I thought it's good most people agreed with my plan.
3 -- another post about most people agreeing being good
4 -- then a post about being worried so many people agreed, so maybe there's scum in there?
5 -- posted that I am actually really busy IRL, and wonder if people say anything about my "lurking"
6 -- stated that I actually think the early VT claim from Joseph is towny, but will probably act opposite in thread for reactions/pressure
7 -- pointed out that WW is scummy this game but no one seems to be picking up on it, and that is generally a scum!tell for WW
8 -- I mention that I keep mixing up Joseph and iguana this game
9 -- I say that Awaclus is frustrating
10 -- I think maybe Awaclus was confused thinking I meant agreeing with Awaclus [about this thing in this game] is scummy when I actually meant agreeing at all is scummy.
11 to 13 -- nonsense (I wish I could quote 13...muons!)
14 -- thoughts on the possible worst case scenarios if we just lynch, basically the worst case I posted here for Hydrad's power

[ashersky]

Also, vote: Joseph because I'm sick of fake-over-dramatic-lying-scum SS.

If I'm Joseph's partner, given I have laid out for you all (among others, like 2.7) just how unlikely a scum win is, and especially if one scum is dead, do I bus here?

[ashersky]

Also, feel free to lodge an official complaint with the mod that I'm playing against my wincon, as I don't feel that Joseph is the scummiest of the VT claims at all.

I think Joseph was town, but it really doesn't matter.  We literally win just by lynching all the VTs.  Hydrad ensures this happens just by shooting a VT we don't lynch.

[Witherweaver]

That's hammeR?

[ashersky]

And why is Jennifer Garner of all people quoted in that vote count?

[ashersky]

That's hammeR?

Supposedly.

[ashersky]

I'd say towniest to scummiest of remaining VTs:

Awaclus > WW > SS

Not that anyone's reads matter.  We've won this game.

[Haddock]

That's hammeR?

"I think that baseball games are like soap operas. If you watch five in a row, you know enough to get hooked. -Jennifer Garner

Vote Count 1.6
Joseph (4): Haddock, WW, 2.7, Iguana
Haddock (1): Awaclus
SS (2): Hydrad, Ashersky
WW (1): Joseph
Ashersky (1): SS

Not Voting (0)

With nine alive it takes five to lynch. D1 will end February 19 at 6:00 PM.

RR, you should do the L-1 thing.

Joseph is at L-1.

Also, vote: Joseph

Yeah, I'd say so.

[ashersky]

And I will not answer any more of your posts until one of us is lynched. Saying I'm insulting Joseph is more than I have the energy to deal with right now.

Hilarious.  This is a dodge to get away from having to paraphrase his QT and nothing else.  Ridiculous.  You got your insane rule passed over the objections of multiple players and mods, but when I find a way to play the game anyway, you whine and run away.

[2.71828.....]

Well this last bit had been dramatic. Expected of a soap opera I guess

[ashersky]

That is despicable. Now this is an insult.

Sorry, I'm not insulted.  You should call me despicable (instead of my post) if that's your intention.  Try a wording like:

"ashersky, you are a despicable human being."  Or even more, "ashersky, you are so despicable I don't think of you as human."  I'm sure you can come up with something.

[ashersky]

I'm the least experienced player!

Proof that SS lied about Haddock.

[Haddock]

I'm the least experienced player!

Proof that SS lied about Haddock.

Huh?

[Witherweaver]

Think he means Joseph.

[ashersky]

I'm the least experienced player!

So I agree with silver. The Ash/Joseph pairing is the one that makes the most sense of this botched claiming situation. Joseph's play as scum was actually kind of good. At least in my eyes, it gave him some town cred, and allowed him to act like he was lurking and not paying too much attention to the game. At that time he had no clue we were later going to do a mass claim of role modifiers.

Then when Ash claimed, he probably wasn't thinking that both scum claiming VT was bad because, you know, he was under the influence.

There could be other explanations, but the Joseph vote looks really good.

Also, if this is true, I feel kinda bad for going after silver and WW so hard.

For the rest of your post, do you really believe all of what you wrote, completely?  Do you still?

I definitely wasn't thinking of anything when I claimed, but right now, under no influence, I'm not convinced both scum claiming VT is the wrong move.

Not knowing the setup, it's completely possible a PR claim would have been immediately countered/caught out.  We've shown that it's technically possible for scum to win, if only through one single iteration of the game.  But that might be more of a chance than had they split the claims or both claimed PR.

[gkrieg13]

flip in a little bit. It's still twilight

[ashersky]

Think he means Joseph.

Right, sorry.  Also, didn't Haddock start after Joseph, too?  Not important.

What's important is that SS was painting a disingenuous portrait of Joseph as a newbie and so inexperienced that he'd botch a claim early D1. 

He also conveniently left out that, if I were his partner, I would have coached him (or anyone) on what to do today to the point that there would be mistakes.

[ashersky]

Hydrad, DO NOT FORGET TO SHOOT A VT TONIGHT.

[2.71828.....]

Yeah, ash would totally have coached a claim in the scum qt, especially coming out with the plan

[2.71828.....]

Even if it were, say, him and [insert best mafia player you can think of] He would have "coached" them. They would have planned claiming N0

[ashersky]

It's all moot anyway, we win.

Hydrad, kill a VT.  Tomorrow, we have a 2/3 chance AT worst of lynching correctly.  I don't see how we can lose.

[2.71828.....]

But hydrad, only shoot if you can claim right now I say. In case you die. Tell us who you target. If two NKs happen and one is Hydrad we need to know who he targeted

[2.71828.....]

Wait, I think I am misunderstanding his role. He dies and scum dies, right?

Which is cool

[iguanaiguana]

Only shoot if Joseph is scum yeah?

[2.71828.....]

So yeah, he can just shoot willy-nilly

[Witherweaver]

Um.. one NK has to be a PR right?  Unless scum is just throwing the game... or plans to have lied about VT later.

[Witherweaver]

I vote to shoot Silverspawn. 

[2.71828.....]

Vigs gonna vig

[2.71828.....]

Yeah, they will totally be killing PRs

[2.71828.....]

I don't care who he shoots. I say either ash or silverspawn, but I don't think it matters

[Haddock]

Still Hydrad may as well claim his target if he gets a chance - scum can't protect themselves anyway.

[ashersky]

Yeah, they will totally be killing PRs

If they shoot a VT, they're trying to say at least one PR AND one VT is lying...that's...insane, because one VT has to be lying town.  It just doesn't compute.

I think the only possible results are:

A: Hydrad whiffs and scum shoots someone other than Hydrad: 1 PR dies, 1 VT dies
B: Hydrad hits and scum shoots someone other than Hydrad: 1 PR dies, 1 Hydrad dies, 1 scum dies
C: Hydrad hits and scum shoots Hydrad (or no kills?): 1 Hydrad dies, 1 scum dies
D: Hydrad whiffs and scum shoots Hydard: 1 Hydrad dies, 1 VT dies

There's no other possibilities that I can see.

That's

[ashersky]

I vote to shoot Silverspawn.

[ashersky]

Still Hydrad may as well claim his target if he gets a chance - scum can't protect themselves anyway.

I mean, if he's dead and scum isn't, we'll know it's the VT that's dead with him.  If he's dead and scum's dead, we'll know it was the scum.  If he's alive, he can tell us.

But yeah, doesn't matter if he claims, as you say.

[Haddock]

Yeah, they will totally be killing PRs

If they shoot a VT, they're trying to say at least one PR AND one VT is lying...that's...insane, because one VT has to be lying town.  It just doesn't compute.

I think the only possible results are:

A: Hydrad whiffs and scum shoots someone other than Hydrad: 1 PR dies, 1 VT dies
B: Hydrad hits and scum shoots someone other than Hydrad: 1 PR dies, 1 Hydrad dies, 1 scum dies
C: Hydrad hits and scum shoots Hydrad (or no kills?): 1 Hydrad dies, 1 scum dies
D: Hydrad whiffs and scum shoots Hydard: 1 Hydrad dies, 1 VT dies

There's no other possibilities that I can see.

That's

Protective roles I guess.  But if any of the VTs get protected tonight, well.  Just... don't do that.

[Joseph2302]

Still twilight, right?
I'm VT

[2.71828.....]

Unfortunate.

[Haddock]

Dang.

I still think Hydrad shoots, he's got a 50:50 shot even going completely at random.

[iguanaiguana]

Sorry dude!

I'm still leaning silver/WW in this case then.

[Hydrad]

I'll shoot. At work so haven't really thought about who though yet.

[Witherweaver]

I think Silver is the best target.

[iguanaiguana]

The thing about Hydrad shooting t0night is it doesn't actually increase our odds at all. Worst case scenario is the same and we get one less night to use the other PRs.

[Witherweaver]

The thing about Hydrad shooting t0night is it doesn't actually increase our odds at all. Worst case scenario is the same and we get one less night to use the other PRs.

Vigs gonna Vig!

[2.71828.....]

Doing the numbers, does hydrad really shoot tonight, or tomorrow night?

Going into N1 : 8 alive 2 scum
Hydrad misses : 6 alive 2 scum
Mislynch going into N2 : 5 alive 2 scum, scum wins


Hydrad hits: 5 alive 1 scum
Mislynch going into N2 : 4 alive 1 scum
Then 3 alive 1 scum on D3.

Or hydrad does not shoot
7 alive, 2 scum. 2/4 scum for the PRs, 2/3 for others.
5 alive 2 scum. 2/3 for PRs,  scum is known to VT

I think I like playing it out. No shot

[2.71828.....]

But yeah, I think hydrad just decides what to do

[2.71828.....]

He is a smart guy. He can run the numbers and make a decision.

He can only vig once though, and I think that is best saved for N2

[2.71828.....]

Hydrad shooting actually just makes town lose a day

[Witherweaver]

Hm

[Haddock]

Second thoughts, you're right.  Leaving it is probably just as good if not better.

Hydrad, shoot!
Hydrad, don't shoot!
Hydrad, exercise your right to decide for yourself!

Yeah, the last one.

[2.71828.....]

Hit correctly, that is 1 scum/1 town dead. Same as a lynch/NK.  Hydrad just had the fun time of playing judge, jury, and executioner

[iguanaiguana]

I already did these numbers lol

[Hydrad]

Hmm I'll take a closer look at it tonight.

[gkrieg13]

Thread Locked!

Vote Count 1.final
Joseph (5): Haddock, WW, 2.7, Iguana, ashersky
Haddock (1): Awaclus
SS (1): Hydrad
WW (1): Joseph
Ashersky (1): SS

Not Voting (0)

With nine alive it took five to lynch

[gkrieg13]

With the constant stress of being soap opera stars, the group gathered together.  They noticed Joseph was sitting a little bit closer to Vanessa than they would've expected.  Vanessa turned and said, "What I can make my own decisions!"  Haddock spoke up and said, "But I thought we were together!"  Witherweaver, e, and iguanaiguana spoke at the same time "But you went on a date with me last night!"  They looked at each other and growled.  At that point, ashersky spoke up and said, "But she is married to me!  Let's kill Joseph!"  They approached Joseph and asked for any last words...  The camera swiveled towards his face as he whimpered, "Just not the face", and was thrown from the building.

Joseph has been lynched!

He was a Vanilla Townie

N1 begins now and will end 48 hours from now

[gkrieg13]

Night actions due in 24 hours, or February 18, 2016, 11:00:00 pm

[gkrieg13]

night action window has passed

[gkrieg13]

Hydrad has been killed in the night!

He was a Weak Vigilante


As everyone started their day, they were excited to see what the fall out would be from their exciting discovery...

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (7): Haddock, WW, 2.7, Iguana, ashersky, Awaclus, ss

With seven alive it takes four to lynch. Day two ends February 29, 2016, 12:00:00 pm

Thread Unlocked!

[ashersky]

Haddock targeted me.  Confirming he's Loud.

[ashersky]

Also, Hydrad didn't shoot?

[Awaclus]

Also, Hydrad didn't shoot?

Oh shoot!

[Witherweaver]

I think he was leaning against shooting.

So without shooting, we still lose if we mislynch the VTs before hitting scum? 

e, any result?

We should look at team possibilities.  It has to be:

1. Ash, Silver
2. Silver, Awaclus
3. Awaclus, Ash

Each person in there can of course switch themselves out for me if they like spinning wheels.  I haven't reread yet, but my initial reaction was that I can't rule any of these out right away.  The Ash vs. Silver fight just over-the-top enough to believe it's staged.  But if we can rule out one of these partners, that would be good, because then we can lynch the common person in the other two.

At any rate, I'm still leaning Silver.

[ashersky]

That's actually bad, I think.  Helps scum's slim chances.

ICs have 2/4 chance today, VTs have 2/3 chance.  If we somehow screw up today and night actions stink, we are at Lylo tomorrow.

[ashersky]

I think he was leaning against shooting.

So without shooting, we still lose if we mislynch the VTs before hitting scum? 

e, any result?

We should look at team possibilities.  It has to be:

1. Ash, Silver
2. Silver, Awaclus
3. Awaclus, Ash

Each person in there can of course switch themselves out for me if they like spinning wheels.  I haven't reread yet, but my initial reaction was that I can't rule any of these out right away.  The Ash vs. Silver fight just over-the-top enough to believe it's staged.  But if we can rule out one of these partners, that would be good, because then we can lynch the common person in the other two.

At any rate, I'm still leaning Silver.

1. WW, SS
2. SS, Awaclus
3. Awaclus, WW

I'd lean 1 > 2 = 3, which means vote: SS when we are ready to vote.

[Haddock]

Huh.  I guess not.  I'm assuming noone has any kind of protective role that could account for that?  I don't know why anyone would have protected Hydrad's potential target, so I don't see that happening.

Weird.  Ah well.

[ashersky]

Well, unless you protected me.

[2.71828.....]

I don't have anything to claim as far as night actions go.

I am leaning toward ash being scum, but will need to do some rereading

[2.71828.....]

Scum killing hydrad is interesting to me. Like, very interesting

[ashersky]

I don't have anything to claim as far as night actions go.

I am leaning toward ash being scum, but will need to do some rereading

Haddock can claim something that should clear me, I assume.

[ashersky]

Scum killing hydrad is interesting to me. Like, very interesting

You owe IG a drink.

[Awaclus]

I will have to re-read before making a decision (to search for potential partner interactions and stuff, to which I haven't paid any attention so far), but intuitively I'd be the most willing to lynch silver out of the remaining claimed VTs.

[ashersky]

I will have to re-read before making a decision (to search for potential partner interactions and stuff, to which I haven't paid any attention so far), but intuitively I'd be the most willing to lynch silver out of the remaining claimed VTs.

And out of the PRs?

[Witherweaver]

So everyone wants to lynch Silver.  At least one of those everyone is scum.

[Awaclus]

Also depends on what Haddock might be able to claim about ash.

[Awaclus]

I will have to re-read before making a decision (to search for potential partner interactions and stuff, to which I haven't paid any attention so far), but intuitively I'd be the most willing to lynch silver out of the remaining claimed VTs.

And out of the PRs?

At this point, I'm willing to 100% count on all claimed PRs being town.

[ashersky]

So everyone wants to lynch Silver.  At least one of those everyone is scum.

Intellectually speaking, you are the most likely, right?

[ashersky]

I will have to re-read before making a decision (to search for potential partner interactions and stuff, to which I haven't paid any attention so far), but intuitively I'd be the most willing to lynch silver out of the remaining claimed VTs.

And out of the PRs?

At this point, I'm willing to 100% count on all claimed PRs being town.

Unless a VT counterclaims now.

That'd be amazing............ly bad.

[Witherweaver]

So everyone wants to lynch Silver.  At least one of those everyone is scum.

Intellectually speaking, you are the most likely, right?

Why?  Do you think there is something indicating me and Silver?  I would say you look worse, because your argument with him escalated unnaturally quickly.

[Awaclus]

I will have to re-read before making a decision (to search for potential partner interactions and stuff, to which I haven't paid any attention so far), but intuitively I'd be the most willing to lynch silver out of the remaining claimed VTs.

And out of the PRs?

At this point, I'm willing to 100% count on all claimed PRs being town.

Unless a VT counterclaims now.

That'd be amazing............ly bad.

Well, it'd be about time to do it if anyone has anything to counterclaim.

[ashersky]

So everyone wants to lynch Silver.  At least one of those everyone is scum.

Intellectually speaking, you are the most likely, right?

Why?  Do you think there is something indicating me and Silver?  I would say you look worse, because your argument with him escalated unnaturally quickly.

That'd be an emotional reason, which is a good theory (although wrong -- no way we are partners because no way he would go for the fake fight angle). 

I meant because you were first out of the gate to single him out and then to immediately call everyone scum who wants to lynch him.  Premeditated plan to incriminate and then immediately clear your partner.

[Witherweaver]

Ah, well, no, that's not the case.  I was just leaning towards him based on my memory of yesterday.

Why do you think Silver wouldn't go for the fake fight thing?  Seems like you two would definitely do it, considering there's a common meta of you always finding him scummy.

[Haddock]

I just had something of a thought, but I need to go actually get some work done today, so don't really have time to explain it.

For some reason I have this awful image of coming back to find the lynch already done, so please no hammering while I'm gone.  A few hours only, promise.

[Witherweaver]

And, scum that wants to lynch him is just a fact.  There has to be at least one scum in the set VT\{Silver}

[ashersky]

Ah, well, no, that's not the case.  I was just leaning towards him based on my memory of yesterday.

Why do you think Silver wouldn't go for the fake fight thing?  Seems like you two would definitely do it, considering there's a common meta of you always finding him scummy.

I think his personality doesn't lend itself to that type of play.

[ashersky]

And, scum that wants to lynch him is just a fact.  There has to be at least one scum in the set VT\{Silver}

I don't know that math thing.  But if you mean if all three VTs want to lynch him then there is a guarantee of at least one scum in those three, then yes.

[ashersky]

Aldo, I'm not getting PPEs.

[Witherweaver]

And, scum that wants to lynch him is just a fact.  There has to be at least one scum in the set VT\{Silver}

I don't know that math thing.  But if you mean if all three VTs want to lynch him then there is a guarantee of at least one scum in those three, then yes.

That's what I'm saying, yes.  The point of my original observation being:  (1) Silver is scum and his partner needs to get on the cred wagon, (2) Silver is not scum and the team is happy for a quick mislynch.

[Witherweaver]

Sorry, there's an implied "or" there.

[ashersky]

And, scum that wants to lynch him is just a fact.  There has to be at least one scum in the set VT\{Silver}

I don't know that math thing.  But if you mean if all three VTs want to lynch him then there is a guarantee of at least one scum in those three, then yes.

That's what I'm saying, yes.  The point of my original observation being:  (1) Silver is scum and his partner needs to get on the cred wagon, (2) Silver is not scum and the team is happy for a quick mislynch.

Fairly certain this is how it ends up playing out for any lynch candidate.

[silverspawn]

Now, firstly

That is despicable. Now this is an insult.

Sorry, I'm not insulted.  You should call me despicable (instead of my post) if that's your intention.

I agree, that wasn't actually an insult

Now let's list some facts (if you're interested to hear them)

- I called Joseph the least experienced VT (that is out of {Joseph, ashersky, WW, silver, Awaclus})
- ash said I was insulting Joseph
- I snapped, pointing out that I was not insulting Joseph
- ash didn't bother to respond and instead called me a liar (I'm yet to hear what I lied about ...). He still didn't admit that I wasn't insulting joseph
- I voted for ash
- ash voted for Joseph and got a mislynch through. Now this is neither here nor there since Joseph was also my second choice.

The biggest piece of evidence we have is still the fact that scum screwed up by claiming VT twice. Ash is still the simplest explanation for this since he claimed really early.

vote: ash

[Awaclus]

Ash is still the simplest explanation for this since he claimed really early.

That is actually a really good point.

[Awaclus]

No wait, it still requires his partner screwing up as well.

[Witherweaver]

This is not a great argument, because it's not a mistake if you can use it to mislynch all the VTs.

[Awaclus]

Yeah, that's not an explanation at all. Only Joseph claimed VT before ash, so ash being drunk and claiming early, regardless of his alignment, doesn't explain why there were two scum VT claims.

[silverspawn]

This is not a great argument, because it's not a mistake if you can use it to mislynch all the VTs.

that's pure WIFOM. Every stupid ever is good if you can use it to convince town that you''re not scum. That doesn't make the argument invalid, but it does weaken it.

[silverspawn]

Yeah, that's not an explanation at all. Only Joseph claimed VT before ash, so ash being drunk and claiming early, regardless of his alignment, doesn't explain why there were two scum VT claims.

It makes it easier, because now we need 1 scum screwing up and not two.

[Witherweaver]

What was the claiming order?

Joseph
Ash
Me
Silver
Awaclus?

Pretty convenient if Ash is town, because you and Awaclus can run this argument to the end.

Even if scum!Ash did claim VT, the late-claiming partner still made the "mistake" of claiming VT after getting all the facts.  I don't think we should be giving out the town/scum points we are for late/early claiming.

[iguanaiguana]

I'm VLA. Don't lynch until Sunday please. I have info.

[Awaclus]

Yeah, that's not an explanation at all. Only Joseph claimed VT before ash, so ash being drunk and claiming early, regardless of his alignment, doesn't explain why there were two scum VT claims.

It makes it easier, because now we need 1 scum screwing up and not two.

We only ever needed 1 scum screwing up (the one who claimed VT after the first one already had). It sounds like a pretty reasonable play for scum to claim PR and VT, respectively.

[Awaclus]

I'm VLA. Don't lynch until Sunday please. I have info.

Great!

[silverspawn]

Yeah, that's not an explanation at all. Only Joseph claimed VT before ash, so ash being drunk and claiming early, regardless of his alignment, doesn't explain why there were two scum VT claims.

It makes it easier, because now we need 1 scum screwing up and not two.

We only ever needed 1 scum screwing up (the one who claimed VT after the first one already had). It sounds like a pretty reasonable play for scum to claim PR and VT, respectively.

mh. Okay, I have to agree. That makes the case on ashersky a lot weaker.

But he's still my favorite lynch.

[2.71828.....]

I'm VLA. Don't lynch until Sunday please. I have info.

Info....I guess Sunday isn't too far off

[silverspawn]

Yeah, that's not an explanation at all. Only Joseph claimed VT before ash, so ash being drunk and claiming early, regardless of his alignment, doesn't explain why there were two scum VT claims.

It makes it easier, because now we need 1 scum screwing up and not two.

We only ever needed 1 scum screwing up (the one who claimed VT after the first one already had). It sounds like a pretty reasonable play for scum to claim PR and VT, respectively.

mh. Okay, I have to agree. That makes the case on ashersky a lot weaker.

But he's still my favorite lynch.

However, even then you can see why I said ash - Joseph. Ash didn't do that. WW didn't do that.

[ashersky]

Now let's list some facts (if you're interested to hear them)

- I called Joseph the least experienced VT (that is out of {Joseph, ashersky, WW, silver, Awaclus})

Nice retcon.  You never said "least experienced VT."  Here's the quote:

See ash, the occurrence that requires an explanation is the fact that both scum claimed VT. You accidentally claimed early, and Joseph also claimed early and is the least experienced player. That makes you two, by far, the easiest explanation, and it is why I am currently voting for you.

Your definition of "early" is one I disagree with.
Your insult of Joseph is also one i disagree with.

You clearly say "least experienced player."  That is extremely clear.  You cannot say that says VT.  It doesn't.

Not a fact.  A lie.

[ashersky]

Yeah, that's not an explanation at all. Only Joseph claimed VT before ash, so ash being drunk and claiming early, regardless of his alignment, doesn't explain why there were two scum VT claims.

It makes it easier, because now we need 1 scum screwing up and not two.

We only ever needed 1 scum screwing up (the one who claimed VT after the first one already had). It sounds like a pretty reasonable play for scum to claim PR and VT, respectively.

mh. Okay, I have to agree. That makes the case on ashersky a lot weaker.

But he's still my favorite lynch.

However, even then you can see why I said ash - Joseph. Ash didn't do that. WW didn't do that.

Your argument is that Joseph and I are lying scum who screwed up and claimed VT on accident.

But we know Joseph didn't screw up like you say he did.

So now you have to change your story to fit.  Just admit you were wrong, or admit you are scum.

[Witherweaver]

It seems pretty clear he's only considering the set that didn't claim PRs, since we're not looking in them for scum.  Not sure why you're trying to hyperpedant this.

[ashersky]

If you want to make a case on me, you should start over.  Your entire premise was destroyed by something I like to call reality.

Look at WW.  He may be wrong, but he's making reasonable arguments based on sensible statements.  You should try that.

And while you are at it, you might try and recall that there are two scum in this game.  Joseph wasn't one, no matter how superior and smart you believe yourself to be. 

[ashersky]

It seems pretty clear he's only considering the set that didn't claim PRs, since we're not looking in them for scum.  Not sure why you're trying to hyperpedant this.

It's pretty clear to me that an argument based on a player being inexperienced and making a mistake falls apart when you look at the facts.

--He claimed first.  His partner would have to make the mistake, not him.
--He is not scum, so all theories based on Joseph being scum are invalidated.
--You can't make the argument that I'm inexperienced.
--I claimed second, which if I were scum would be first, so again, my partner and not I had to have made the mistake.
--So which of WW, SS, and Awaclus is the inexperienced player who made the idiotic mistake that SS is railing on about?  I think Awaclus started most recently, so it's him, who literally had the most time to think about it?

[Witherweaver]

I'm not saying it's a good argument, I'm just saying the whole "this is a lie" thing is silly.

[ashersky]

I'm not saying it's a good argument, I'm just saying the whole "this is a lie" thing is silly.

Like his argument.  I'm making a point.

Also, I'm arguing that he's scummy by misrepresenting himself.

[Haddock]

OK I'm here.

My promised explanation of a thought might have to wait though.  The more I think about it the more tenuous it gets, and so I'd rather wait until the promised info from igu.

Any chance igu could actually lay that info down for us though?  I know you're busy buddy, but if you have useful infos then saying so now might be nice so we can discuss it while you're gone.

Course you may well have reasons not to, in which case yeah fair enough.  

[silverspawn]

Okay. Let me tell you something, and the exact same thing is true for Awaclus. You both do this thing were you only ever concede points when they are about an extremely limited objective fact, something that is impossible to argue against. As soon as there is space to argue, no matter how narrow, you will keep arguing and never be convinced irregardless of how clearly you are wrong.

This current situation demonstrates just how true this is. Look at this quote:

See ash, the occurrence that requires an explanation is the fact that both scum claimed VT. You accidentally claimed early, and Joseph also claimed early and is the least experienced player.

It is crystal clear that in saying 'the least experienced player' I was talking about the least experienced among the people who claimed VT. I just talked about those people in the previous sentence. The post is about those people. The others are irrelevant for this point. The post doesn't make sense anymore if I included all people. It is as if I said 'Sanders is the oldest candidate' and you said that it is a lie because there is an older candidate in an election for the president of an animal farm in North-east Asia.

In human interaction, there has to be a minimum of contextual understanding to make communication possible. Without it, 'the least experienced player' could mean the least experienced person of all humans who have ever played a game. Without it, 'early' could mean in regards to the creation of earth, which would make it roughly 5 billion years in and thus not early at all.

The above quote, it is within that minimum of contextual understanding which everyone playing this game has, and I am convinced that you do, too. Were you an observer, and I wrote this quote, and someone asked you what it meant, you would know it.

The fact that you are defending stances such as this one is either the result of an amount of confirmation the likes of which are rarely seen, or of you being scum.

[silverspawn]

^confirmation bias

[Awaclus]

Okay. Let me tell you something, and the exact same thing is true for Awaclus. You both do this thing were you only ever concede points when they are about an extremely limited objective fact, something that is impossible to argue against. As soon as there is space to argue, no matter how narrow, you will keep arguing and never be convinced irregardless of how clearly you are wrong.

Pot calling the kettle black there. You can't just blame someone else of "arguing and never [being] convinced irregardless of how clearly [they] are wrong" while you're as unwilling to accept the opposing position yourself. Just because ash and me might sometimes have groundbreaking opinions while other people might have more traditional opinions it doesn't mean that the traditional opinions are at all more likely to be right when judged based on just the merits of the argument itself, which is how you should always judge arguments.

[silverspawn]

Pot calling the kettle black there. You can't just blame someone else of "arguing and never [being] convinced irregardless of how clearly [they] are wrong" while you're as unwilling to accept the opposing position yourself.

I... just conceded to having been wrong about something. Five posts ago. Here:

Yeah, that's not an explanation at all. Only Joseph claimed VT before ash, so ash being drunk and claiming early, regardless of his alignment, doesn't explain why there were two scum VT claims.

It makes it easier, because now we need 1 scum screwing up and not two.

We only ever needed 1 scum screwing up (the one who claimed VT after the first one already had). It sounds like a pretty reasonable play for scum to claim PR and VT, respectively.

mh. Okay, I have to agree. That makes the case on ashersky a lot weaker.

[Haddock]

Yeah, I take no stand on this particular point, but there is no doubt, Awa, that out of you/ash/SS, the order of stubbornness of people definitely has you as the stubbornest.

[Haddock]

And by "this particular point", I mean I'm not taking a stand on the current discussion about the game.

[silverspawn]

And by "this particular point", I mean I'm not taking a stand on the current discussion about the game.

I thought you were going to say that you aren't taking a stance on the confirmation bias discussion. Isn't the game exactly what you should have a stance on? As in, who do you want to lynch and why?

[Haddock]

No I AM taking a stance on the confirmation bias discussion.

I have a few thoughts about the game, I'm still trying to sort out which I want to share and which I don't.
I'm new to this IC thing.

[silverspawn]

hm, okay.

I'll give you an advise that'll make it easier: vote for someone who isn't me, and you already have 2/3 chance of hitting scum.

[Awaclus]

I... just conceded to having been wrong about something. Five posts ago. Here:

I conceded to having been wrong about something five posts ago as well. Here:

No wait, it still requires his partner screwing up as well.

It's a funny coincidence how it was the exact same thing that you were also wrong about. Might have had something to do with the fact that the position was objectively wrong and it was not even particularly difficult to realize that.

Yeah, I take no stand on this particular point, but there is no doubt, Awa, that out of you/ash/SS, the order of stubbornness of people definitely has you as the stubbornest.

I might be more inclined to speak out when I disagree with someone, and I might also be more likely to have unconventional views, but when I disagree with someone and he disagrees with me back, how, from that, can you conclude that I'm more stubborn than that other person?

[Haddock]

I actually don't think you're more likely to have unconventional views.  I've seen you boldly championing the cause of the established enough times.

In terms of you final question, I conclude it based on the fact that I've never seen a discussion involving you where you decided something more than, say, 5 or 6 posts in and then changed that conclusion ever.

[Haddock]

Let us not have this discussion.

[ashersky]

Why couldn't a PR just caught someone?  That would make this much easier.

[silverspawn]

Correcting something you said 2 seconds ago is not the same as conceding an argument.

[silverspawn]

Okay. So. 2 scum in 4 people, and 3 ICs. 3 is  good number - you each choose someone you want to lynch, that has to have a majority, and then that guy gets lynched. You hit scum, and we win. Easy.

[ashersky]

Okay. So. 2 scum in 4 people, and 3 ICs. 3 is  good number - you each choose someone you want to lynch, that has to have a majority, and then that guy gets lynched. You hit scum, and we win. Easy.

Well, if they each choose someone different, there won't be a majority without a scum bus.

Two ICs work, though.

[2.71828.....]

Yeah, I will reread over the weekend

[Awaclus]

I actually don't think you're more likely to have unconventional views.  I've seen you boldly championing the cause of the established enough times.

When it's sensible. I don't choose my views based on how popular they are, whether it means they are going to be obscure or super mainstream.

In terms of you final question, I conclude it based on the fact that I've never seen a discussion involving you where you decided something more than, say, 5 or 6 posts in and then changed that conclusion ever.

In most cases, I don't write the first post without carefully considering all of the possible aspects of the argument first. Just now there was an exception to that rule — the post made sense to me at the time, but two minutes later, I realized that it was complete nonsense. Usually I wait at least those two minutes before posting the first post, but today was different because I was tired and so I didn't feel as reserved as I usually do. 5 or 6 posts in, there's no way I'm at all uncertain about any of the conclusions that I'm drawing from the premises, and when that is the case, my reasoning is also very solid, so what you would need to do to change my mind at that stage is to have evidence that suggests that the premises are wrong, but people hardly ever do that.

Let us not have this discussion.

Don't start discussions you're not willing to have.

[silverspawn]

err... right, 3 picks of 4 choices does of course not always amount to a majority. but still.

[Haddock]

5 or 6 posts in, there's no way I'm at all uncertain about any of the conclusions that I'm drawing from the premises,

Do you honestly not see how people see this as stubbornness?

my reasoning is also very solid,

Noone's reasoning is immune to error.

Don't start discussions you're not willing to have.

In fairness, I did not start this discussion, I added to it.  It's a discussion I'm willing to have, but in a different thread.  I AM a bit conscious that I don't want to get to the point where I end up insulting you - I think you're quite resilient to such things but nonetheless.

[Awaclus]

5 or 6 posts in, there's no way I'm at all uncertain about any of the conclusions that I'm drawing from the premises,

Do you honestly not see how people see this as stubbornness?

I see that they do, and I see that they shouldn't. If you have to solve the exact same math problem 5 times, it becomes easier and easier to solve it every time, and if you get the same solution every time, at some point you're going to be pretty convinced that your solution must be right, especially when all the alternative solutions have blatant flaws in them that you can just point out.

my reasoning is also very solid,

Noone's reasoning is immune to error.

That is true, and unfortunately it's rarely possible to prove that errors don't exist. I do actively try to search for them, and occasionally I find some internal inconsistencies and then I fix them. That happens sometimes when I'm having a discussion, although it might not be immediately visible to other people, since it's usually minor, and still doesn't make me agree with the completely opposing viewpoint so there's probably no reason to point out the fact that I've changed my view regarding something minor. But in general, I'm pretty confident in my ability to reason, especially for the kinds of topics that I have been considering and reconsidering for years, and I also don't think that said confidence is entirely baseless, either.

Don't start discussions you're not willing to have.

In fairness, I did not start this discussion, I added to it.  It's a discussion I'm willing to have, but in a different thread.  I AM a bit conscious that I don't want to get to the point where I end up insulting you - I think you're quite resilient to such things but nonetheless.

You know, I am not completely devoid of agency. If I feel insulted, it is 100% my own fault, not something you have inflicted upon me.

[iguanaiguana]

OK I'm here.

My promised explanation of a thought might have to wait though.  The more I think about it the more tenuous it gets, and so I'd rather wait until the promised info from igu.

Any chance igu could actually lay that info down for us though?  I know you're busy buddy, but if you have useful infos then saying so now might be nice so we can discuss it while you're gone.

Course you may well have reasons not to, in which case yeah fair enough.

I'm a witness rolecop. I can cop someone at night. If they are a PR, it gives me their role. If they are mafia goon or VT, it gives a vanilla result. So if I can find the JoAT I can cop him.

I copped Witherweaver last night and got the vanilla result for him. So he could still be the mafia goon, but can't be JoAT. That makes him less likely to be scum than Awaclus/silver/Ash.

I think we should lynch silver or Ash today but again please wait until Sunday night. No reason to make this day super short.

[iguanaiguana]

I haven't read anything, sorry.

[iguanaiguana]

Skimmed.

VTs are really going at each other's throats, not unexpected.

I say e, Haddock & me keep talking until at least 2/3 of us agree on who to lynch. Scum has too much power among the VTs right now and lots and lots of WIFOM in there.

Sorry my result is not better. I shared it today because I figure I am dying tonight no matter what I do. Maybe there is a doctor in Haddock/e to save me and give me another chance to find the JoAT.

[Witherweaver]

Alright.  Well still good as it let's the town in {Ash, Silver, Awaclus} know the scum team, modulo whatever chance he thinks I could be the Goon.  And gives the PRs the same PoE that I have.   

[Awaclus]

Alright.  Well still good as it let's the town in {Ash, Silver, Awaclus} know the scum team, modulo whatever chance he thinks I could be the Goon.  And gives the PRs the same PoE that I have.

Well, the chance that you could be the Goon is still half of the chance that you could be scum. But I think that we should lynch out of ash and silver today anyway because if one of them flips Goon, then I think we just win.

[Haddock]

OK, so let's limit ourselves to ash and SS for now then?
I think WW and Awa both have good things going for them.

II, thanks for you claim, as promised we won't be lynching today.

e, you're still leaning towards scum!ash?

[ashersky]

OK, so let's limit ourselves to ash and SS for now then?
I think WW and Awa both have good things going for them.

II, thanks for you claim, as promised we won't be lynching today.

e, you're still leaning towards scum!ash?

Why would we be lynching iguana anyway?  PRs = ICs, remember?

[Haddock]

No, he was saying he doesn't want any lynches happening before he gets back on Sunday.  I was confirming that that's the plan.

[ashersky]

No, he was saying he doesn't want any lynches happening before he gets back on Sunday.  I was confirming that that's the plan.

Oh, gotcha.

[Haddock]

Not going to full claim, but will say now I think: my result is essentially neutral with regards to ash's alignment.

I think based on his behaviour today I'd be OK lynching ash.

[ashersky]

Not going to full claim, but will say now I think: my result is essentially neutral with regards to ash's alignment.

I think based on his behaviour today I'd be OK lynching ash.

What behavior is that, exactly?

[ashersky]

We really have no conclusive results?

WW still has a fair chance of being scum.  Haddock says his result on me is useless.

I will say, seems to me to make more sense to lynch from the non-investigated.

[ashersky]

Also, 2.7 mentioned earlier he thought it was interesting that Hydrad was killed.

Why's that?

[Haddock]

Not going to full claim, but will say now I think: my result is essentially neutral with regards to ash's alignment.

I think based on his behaviour today I'd be OK lynching ash.

What behavior is that, exactly?

Just being-generally-scummier than SS (the best current alternative).
Not liking it.

[ashersky]

Not going to full claim, but will say now I think: my result is essentially neutral with regards to ash's alignment.

I think based on his behaviour today I'd be OK lynching ash.

What behavior is that, exactly?

Just being-generally-scummier than SS (the best current alternative).
Not liking it.

Is it possible for me to be less scummy than SS in any given moment in mafia time?  Serious question.

I honestly think that if both SS and I posted "The road to the village passes through a forest." in a mafia game as our first post, then the majority of players were asked to rank all the players in the game from scummy to towny, SS would be ranked townier on the majority of lists, even though we both only posted once and the same text.

I guess my point is you shouldn't judge me compared to SS.  You should judge me compared to the previous mes.

[Haddock]

I honestly think that if both SS and I posted "The road to the village passes through a forest." in a mafia game as our first post, then the majority of players were asked to rank all the players in the game from scummy to towny, SS would be ranked townier on the majority of lists, even though we both only posted once and the same text.

I guess my point is you shouldn't judge me compared to SS.  You should judge me compared to the previous mes.

I'll thank you not to paint me with the same biases that admittedly I think some people do have. 

I'm judging you based on what I've seen from you across this whole game.  I think you're the scummiest here.

[Haddock]

Guys, is, like, anyone here besides me and ash?

[2.71828.....]

Guys, is, like, anyone here besides me and ash?

no.  Wait, if I post that means yes.  so yes.  rereading now.

[iguanaiguana]

I'd like to hear who e thinks we should lynch.

[Haddock]

I don't have anything to claim as far as night actions go.

I am leaning toward ash being scum, but will need to do some rereading

This post seems to indicate ash, though of course he could change his mind on reread.

[2.71828.....]

OK.  recap:

VTs: Awaclus, ss, ashersky, WW

Haddock: Loud _______ - neutral result to Ash's alignment
iguana: Witness Rolecop - targeted WW, either goon or VT
2.7: Insane __________ - Has not claimed, but doesn't have any result to share

ashersky - Ok, the reason I was suspicious about ashersky was the simple fact that he came up with the plan, then pushing Hydrad to shoot, plus the talk that scum both claiming VT isn't that bad.  But then, is Ash likely to add up incorrectly and come up with only half the plan as scum?  Basically (sorry), is Ash going to play better as scum than as town?  That's not really a fair question, and it leads to all sorts of meta issues (like the hypothetical "ash is playing well, he must be scum" (which is a terrible argument)).  But I don't know.  My experience is flavored by Village Mafia where he caught us (scum) so thoroughly well that we had no chance.  But now here, his 'plan' was only halfway there, where a full massclaim gave us 4 ICs (although it could have worked differently....I actually think Ash's partial claim plan and then pushing the massclaim worked very well).  Then the whole Hydrad shooting thing.  He was just wrong about it.  Here is the post with his math:

So basically, we need lynch one scum in three tries, and we win the game. Scum is essentially in the opposite of a triple MyLo situation. They need to get three mislynches through on exactly three players to win the game (or at least get Hydrad to kill one of them for them).

I think you are looking at this wrong.

We have to catch 2 scum in 5 players.  We have two mislynches to burn.  The rest is ancillary to the whole thing.  Literally, the 4 PRs could do nothing and they're still ICs.  Just think of the setup as 4 ICs, 3 VTs, 2 scum.

I laid out how I think powers should play out.  I'm thinking Hydrad shooting is best.  Worst!Hydrad scenario:

D1 mislynch VT
N1 vig VT + NK PR
D2 mislynch VT
N2...Hydrad has 2 VTs to choose from.  He has a 100% chance of killing scum (and himself).
D3 LYLO with 1 vs 2

That's the "worst case" in this.  It basically guarantees scum has to try to kill Hydrad on N1.

This is all assuming none of the VTs are lying town (WW...?).

Sounds good....except it is wrong.

D1 mislynch VT
N1 vig VT + NK PR
D2 mislynch VT
N2...Hydrad has 2 VTs to choose from.  He has a 100% chance of killing scum (and himself). + NK PR
D3 scum wins, 1 vs 1

This is the math that was never corrected (I kind of did at the very end of the day during twilight, but not with time to discuss).  So does scum!Ash push phony math that looks legit?  I mean, this is kind of last-ditch effort type stuff.  Does scum!ash do this and try to trick Hydrad into shooting. 

So that is where my leaning scum!Ash comes from.  (plus the interesting as to why scum kills Hydrad.  Town does not benefit at all from Hydrad shooting)

But I am not sure I want to vote for ashersky.  Still need to go through the other 3 VTs

[Awaclus]

This is the math that was never corrected (I kind of did at the very end of the day during twilight, but not with time to discuss).  So does scum!Ash push phony math that looks legit?  I mean, this is kind of last-ditch effort type stuff.  Does scum!ash do this and try to trick Hydrad into shooting.

I guess it's also a possibility that scum!ash legit thought that it's good for town if Hydrad shoots, and that's why scum NK'd Hydrad.

[2.71828.....]

This is the math that was never corrected (I kind of did at the very end of the day during twilight, but not with time to discuss).  So does scum!Ash push phony math that looks legit?  I mean, this is kind of last-ditch effort type stuff.  Does scum!ash do this and try to trick Hydrad into shooting.

I guess it's also a possibility that scum!ash legit thought that it's good for town if Hydrad shoots, and that's why scum NK'd Hydrad.

yeah, why I thought it was interesting that hydrad died.  In my opinion, scum WANTED Hydrad to shoot.  Because like I mentioned in twilight, the only thing it does is shorten the game.  It takes a day away from town where we can vote on a kill, and puts all the power in hydrad's hands (which is not a bad thing, but I think scum would prefer it that way)

[2.71828.....]

sorry, I have been playing dominion all day and didnt get to rereading anyone else.  I will get it done by the end of the night though

[2.71828.....]

Awaclus:

He has done a good bit of talking, but nothing that would implicate him in anything.  He voted for hydrad, he was off wagon for Joseph.  I could see him as being scum, but there is nothing that compelling to make me think that he is.  I also don't give any extra credit to him for the VT claim.  I remember when I was scum with faust (I think) and we totally botched the fakeclaiming because we didn't really discuss it the night before.  I wanted him to claim, he wanted me to claim, and we ended up claiming sub-optimally.  Anyway, I could see that kind of thing going on.  Awaclus (goon) wanted to claim VT and wanted his partner (PR) to claim some PR, but even when his partner didn't claim PR he still stuck with what he wanted to claim.  I don't know. 

So nothing to make him town, nothing to make him scum.  Totally hedging on Awaclus here.  Good thing I am an IC or that would be scummy.

[2.71828.....]

Witherweaver:

As Ampharos might say, I am getting "teh feelz" about witherweaver.  Like, he is scum.  Again though, same as Awaclus, there is nothing especially implicating about what he has done.  One point against him is being on-wagon for the Joseph lynch.  Some interesting quotes that I pulled:

Ash's plan gives scum a bit of a free ride fake claiming, no?  Even so, I tentatively believe Iguana.

On the other hand, Ash/Iguana would be interesting.  But I suppose not really worth it on the off-chance that there is a real Witness.

Putting a lot of doubt into Iguana's claim early.  Not sure how I like this.  This is part of the reason I am getting those scummy vibes from WW. 

WW also proposes massclaiming first.  He then also puts more doubt into the claims that we currently have:

What do you think about scum using this to safely fake claim something without ever having to prove it?

He also has this quote that basically is a point saying that Joseph is town:

I'm mostly just not sure scum jumps out ahead with an early VT claim.  Possibly he'd think it would get town cred.

But votes Joseph later with almost no explanation.  Although later he explains a reason being that Joseph was pushing for my lynch (I mean, just a little, not really) because he thought I was the first person to propose a massclaim (before I really endorsed that massclaim).

Just nothing that makes me super comfortable with him being town.  But, he has that half-result in his favor.  So that kind of gives him a little bit of leniency and I don't know that I really want to lynch him today.

[2.71828.....]

silverspawn:

yeah, so I am getting lazier as I get these rereads.  Basically, I am looking at WW/silverspawn right now. 

Vote: Awaclus

I'm not so sure. I faked ignorance about a claiming plan in my first scum game and claimed earlier than I needed to.

vote: Joseph

Setting up Joseph for a lynch, then voting him, but off-wagon voting ashersky for the final vote.  I don't know, that is really just circumstantial.  Again, I have the feeling that he is scum, but there is not much real here to vote against him for

[2.71828.....]

so right now

WW > silverspawn > Ashersky = Awaclus

[2.71828.....]

would vote silverspawn or WW

[ashersky]

Getting on an airplane soon.  I assume nothing is happening today right?  We have time.

[Haddock]

Agreed, lots of time.

I really do disagree with e though.  I think we should be lynching ash today. I think II agrees as well?

[Awaclus]

Agreed, lots of time.

I really do disagree with e though.  I think we should be lynching ash today. I think II agrees as well?

I agree as well.

[Haddock]

Alright then.

Cards on the table from me.
vote: ash

There's no hurry of course. But that's where I'm at.

[iguanaiguana]

I like Ash today, silver tomorrow. Or the other way around. If the team is Awaclus/Witherweaver, we lose. Otherwise, we win.

But I also want to do a detailed re-read today and make a possible scum matrix and rank it.

I'll do that tonight.

[silverspawn]

I like Ash today, silver tomorrow. Or the other way around. If the team is Awaclus/Witherweaver, we lose. Otherwise, we win.

But I also want to do a detailed re-read today and make a possible scum matrix and rank it.

I'll do that tonight.

do you really think that if ash is scum, I can also be scum?

[iguanaiguana]

I like Ash today, silver tomorrow. Or the other way around. If the team is Awaclus/Witherweaver, we lose. Otherwise, we win.

But I also want to do a detailed re-read today and make a possible scum matrix and rank it.

I'll do that tonight.

do you really think that if ash is scum, I can also be scum?

Well, not necessarily. "Ash today, silver tomorrow" was my thinking for if Ash is town.

[iguanaiguana]

But I don't think that's the most unlikely pairing I can come up with either. That's why I want to do the matrix.

[2.71828.....]

so...tracking the votecount is

Ash (2): silverspawn, Haddock

not voting (everyone else)

Takes 4 to lynch.

I will go ahead and throw a vote: silverspawn out there.  I need to be convinced more about ashersky

[Awaclus]

do you really think that if ash is scum, I can also be scum?

Well, I really think that yes. Your argument could totally have been faked.

[silverspawn]

do you really think that if ash is scum, I can also be scum?

Well, I really think that yes. Your argument could totally have been faked.

Meh.

[gkrieg13]

"They say revenge is sweet. I'm about to go into sugar shock!" --Todd Manning, One Life to Live.

Vote Count 2.1

ashersky (2): ss, Haddock
ss (1): 2.7

Not Voting (7): WW, Iguana, ashersky, Awaclus

With seven alive it takes four to lynch. Day two ends February 29, 2016, 12:00:00 pm

[Awaclus]

Vote: ash (this is obviously L-1)

[2.71828.....]

Can we at least wait to lynch Ash until he gets back to defend himself?

Getting on an airplane soon.  I assume nothing is happening today right?  We have time.

[2.71828.....]

Not that I plan on lynching Ashersky anytime soon

[Awaclus]

Can we at least wait to lynch Ash until he gets back to defend himself?

Getting on an airplane soon.  I assume nothing is happening today right?  We have time.

I guess we don't have to hammer yet, but he did claim already.

[Haddock]

I'd feel bad lynching him without giving him a couple more posts.

[Witherweaver]

I'd rather wait; I still haven't reread day 1.

[ashersky]

I think both scum have to be on wagon, right?  Seems like the easy mislynch.

I think vote: ss which is no surprise given my reads.  He was also the first to vote anyone today and without much content otherwise.  And complete disregard for any risk or thought given.

I'm on a trip all week with less access than usual.  I'd rather you not lynch me at all, but I guess maybe I can see why?

I still go back to the VT claim argument as a terrible one. If the thought is both scum claiming VT is the big mistake, remember that I'd have to have been the first scum to claim, which doesn't make sense there if it was a drunken mistake.  I don't see anything else scummy.

My plan came to fruition early, given I helped gkrieg design this game so I'd been thinking about it for weeks before you all even knew it existed.  So regardless of role and alignment, I already had the plan.

I'll be able to post at least once a day like this, maybe more.

[Haddock]

I'd rather you not lynch me at all, but I guess maybe I can see why?

Look how reasonable I'm being!  Totally seeing things from your perspective!

I'd be more than happy to see a hammer at this point.

[Awaclus]

I'd rather you not lynch me at all, but I guess maybe I can see why?

Look how reasonable I'm being!  Totally seeing things from your perspective!

I'd be more than happy to see a hammer at this point.

Here:

[silverspawn]

I don't actually think ash's response is particularly scummy. But... I still think he's scum, even beyond the basic 2/3 odds.

[iguanaiguana]

This wagon has 1 IC and two unknowns on it, while two ICs are off wagon. The only way it's not scum-driven is if the team is Ash/WW. That isn't the most likely team (and would make Ash the JoAT) but I don't really like those odds.

I want 3 ICs on wagon before we do anything, which means that right now I wouldn't even consider hammering Ash.

[iguanaiguana]

*most UNlikely team* I meant

[silverspawn]

I don't think we need 3, or will ever get three. But I think we should get 2.

[iguanaiguana]

Getting three is not hard at all. We just keep talking until e, Haddock and I all agree on a lynch. If VTs are already voting for that person, then we at least still agreed to lynch them.

[iguanaiguana]

I'm not trying to belittle anyone here but from our perspective all four of you have ~50% odds of being scum; that doesn't exactly make you people I want to be putting my faith in right now.

[silverspawn]

We just keep talking until [...] all agree

yeah. ...

[iguanaiguana]

We have 8 days, it's not unreasonable at all.

[2.71828.....]

We just keep talking until [...] all agree

yeah. ...

I am all about lynching someone with 2 VT, 2 PR.  We just need one more VT and one more PR to get on board with the silverspawn lynch and we are good to go.

[2.71828.....]

For starters, iguana should vote silverspawn.

[silverspawn]

you know I'm actually town, right? You are pushing a mislynch.

[2.71828.....]

you know I'm actually town, right? You are pushing a mislynch.

That is my specialty.  I pushed Joseph, remember?

[2.71828.....]

Wait....I am pushing a silverspawn lynch.  That means I am scum though, right?  Good thing I am an IC here...

[silverspawn]

thing is, I really don't understand why you think I'm scum. You only had like 1 quote in your reread for me.

[iguanaiguana]

Awaclus reread:

#125: First post with content, he votes for Joseph because of his early VT claim.
#193: starts arguing with Ashersky. Other than agreeing with Ash's plan, this is all he's done.
#195: Continues arguing
#202: He says: In my experience, ash tends to post stuff that I don't like as both alignments.

This post strikes me as something that scum might say about a partner in order to distance themselves. I said a lot of things like this about Faust in Marvel Heroes.

#205 & 208 & 220: still arguing
#233 & 234: Votes for Haddock because "he's scum."
#241: Says, there's a good reason to believe Hydrad is town, but he wouldn't count on it unless he had to.  He's responding to me being pointlessly provocative.
#266: expresses surprise that silverspawn dislikes being scum. Says that last time he remembered silverspawn being scum, he was really excited about it. (silver then clarifies that he doesn't like scum so much anymore and in fact does prefer town now).

Unless Awaclus is faking ignorance here, this makes silverspawn/Awaclus somewhat less likely to be the scum team.

#382: ~25 hours after previous post, Awaclus is the final person to claim VT. (Enter WIFOM)
#383: Says Ash should claim again sober.
#392: Clarifies: regardless of whether he will switch or not, Awaclus doesn't trust a drunk person's claim.
#442: A sorta joke on Ash's defense (sorta), which Ash appreciates with a +1 on 443
#536: Says he's most willing to lynch silver on (first content post on D2)
#556: Agrees with silver that Ash is the simplest explanation for a scum team since he claimed before the mass claim.
#557 & 559: Retracts his agreement with silver, because "it requires [Ash's] partner to screw up as well."
#579 & 586 & 594: arguing with silver and Haddock about whether or not he's agreeable.
#602: Says "WW could still be the goon, but we should lynch out of Ash or silver"
#619: Discusses how scum!Ash might have been considering Hydrad
#620: Wants to lynch Ash
#636: Thinks that silver/Ash is a likely possibility
#639: Puts Ash at L-1


That's most of Awaclus' posts. So let's look at the possible Awaclus partners:

WW/Awaclus looks like the most likely partnership if Awaclus is scum. Awaclus doesn't say anything at all about Witherweaver, except in post #602 where he hedges a bit (it's pretty reasonable, of course) and says that even though WW could still be the mafia goon, we shouldn't lynch him today.

silverspawn/Awaclus looks fairly unlikely especially with post #266, but I don't want to rule it out.

Ashersky/Awaclus still seems pretty unlikely. I originally called Awaclus/Ash an unlikely pairing, but looking back at their arguments they could have been staged. But we do have Awaclus pushing an Ash lynch right now, and I think that bussing a partner loses scum the game right now (I still need to fully run these numbers). Putting your partner at L-1 seems pretty unlikely. 

[iguanaiguana]

In the end, Awaclus doesn't look that towny, and I'm very wary about Awaclus/WW as possible partners. Back to back silverspawn/Ashersky lynches look a lot worse now, let's not do that.

[iguanaiguana]

And again, I think I want to emphasize that Awaclus/Ash looks so unlikely at this point that if we keep them both alive (by lynching silver/WW), we should win.

[iguanaiguana]

But I've got three more re-reads to do before I vote.

[iguanaiguana]

Speaking to town!silver here,

If you exist, do you believe it is possible for Awaclus/Ash to be a scum team?

[iguanaiguana]

I guess, Awaclus could have put Ash at L-1 in order to ultimately convince us all that they aren't partners, because they actually are... and this is how they win.

Man, I'm willing to bet on that not being what happened. That would be SO bold.

[silverspawn]

Speaking to town!silver here,

If you exist, do you believe it is possible for Awaclus/Ash to be a scum team?

well yeah, I think that's probably the most likely team.

[silverspawn]

The only other options are WW-ash and WW-Awaclus, and I have sort of a town read on WW

[iguanaiguana]

Ashersky reread

#62: Wagons WW on his first post
#81 & 82: The by-now-famous plan
#138: Comments on his plan's fruition. Distrusts Joseph and WW for what they are doing with it.
#142 & 143: More banter with WW that looks somewhat partnery.
#187: Calls agreeing with Awaclus scummy, thus starting the fight
#192, 194, 203, 204, 206, 210, 211: argues with Awaclus
#218: Skeptical post toward Joseph: "You really can't think of anything other than Super PR or scum?"
#225: Wonders why people are voting Haddock
#257: Votes WW for acti-lurking (which he was doing)
#278: Now drunk, switches to silver
Lots of drunk posts. Says "silver is always scum tho."
#305: Claims vt
#414: Reiterates VT claim, says that we have a high probability of winning and that the VTs should rank each other from scummiest to towniest and then let the ICs decide who to lynch. Puts his order as ss - WW/Awaclus - Joseph.

Interesting that Joseph is the least scummy on his list here (despite never expressing that before) and how WW, who he was tunneling before he got drunk, moves to the middle of the list, whereas silver, who he didn't distrust before getting drunk, moves to the front.

#416-421: some dubious theory posts about power roles. Others have already pointed out that Ash is looking at things wrong here.
#427: still leaning for a silver lynch
#437: calls silver's vote on him OMGUS
#440, 441, 452, 454, 455, : Arguing with silver; Ash looks townier here for all of this after Joseph flipped town. He votes silver a second time here, but I believe he was still voting silver from when he was drunk.

#467: Paraphrases his QT. Discusses a townread on Joseph, and a scumread on WW. It looks... pretty towny (or at least authentic.) It wouldn't be crazy for scum to post those things in their QT.
#468: Switches to a hammer!vote on Joseph. Pretty scummy to just switch from your towniest read to your scummiest read. But Ash looks frustrated here also.
#469: Admits it's scummy, but says we "literally win by just lynching all VTs and Hydrad shooting." This is still wrong, but it looks towny to me.
#473: restates his reads as town > scum Awa > WW > silver
Lots of twilight posts that I don't want to summarize all of. They looks fairly towny to me though, especially with Joseph's flip.

D2:
#529: Regards WW/ss as most likely, with the other two options (from his perspective) as equally likely.
#534: Says that he expects Haddock to clear him. Pretty bold, seems towny to me also.
#541: Says that WW is most likely to the scum who expressed interest in lynching silver.
#545: Ash making sense here. Kinda scary actually.
#549: Says that he doesn't think silver and him would go for a fake fight as scum partners.
Argues with silver some more. He's making more sense here. Why are we lynching Ash again? Ash is a terrible lynch today.
#589: More towny frustration
#645: Trying to save himself, votes for silver.

[iguanaiguana]

Speaking to town!silver here,

If you exist, do you believe it is possible for Awaclus/Ash to be a scum team?

well yeah, I think that's probably the most likely team.

Cool.

Vote: silverspawn

[iguanaiguana]

Haddock, look at the facts and remove your vote. You and at least one scum are on your wagon, possibly two. If we lynch Ash today our very good chance of winning turns into a toss up.

[silverspawn]

noo man. You were on the correct lynch, now you switched to a mislynch. Don't do that. You'll be kicking yourself after the game.

[silverspawn]

what facts are you even talking about?

[iguanaiguana]

So, thoughts on the Ashersky.

WW/Ash. If Ash is scum, WW is probably his most likely partner. Ash tunneling WW early and then moving him to the middle of his scum reads after the claiming situation looks scummy. But he's also been consistently calling WW scummy, and saying the most likely scum team is ss/WW. I am inclined to agree, so...
Ash/Awaclus. I already called this the most unlikely pair. Interestingly, it all has to do with Awaclus, not Ash. Nothing Ash says makes me think he's not Awaclus' partner, except some of the stuff in their early fight.
Ash/silver. It seems pretty damn unlikely to me. They've been going at each other's throats. I just don't think scum bus this hard in a game like this.

Ash is the towniest VT alive IMO. He's unlikely to be scum with any of these people, MAYBE Witherweaver... but that depends on WW being the goon and Ash being JoAT, so I wouldn't even rank that very high.

[iguanaiguana]

Thoughts on the Ashersky pairings*

is what that should say up top.

[iguanaiguana]

what facts are you even talking about?

I'm talking about eliminating unlikely pairs. If we keep two people alive who are most unlikely to be scum partners, we win. That's how we win the game. The only way we are wrong is if everyone agrees that the most unlikely scum partners... are scum partners.

Ash/Awaclus are unlikely partners, so I'm in favor of keeping them alive until we lynch you two.

silver/Ash are also unlikely partners, so if we can't agree to lynch silver/WW then I want to lynch Awaclus/WW.

[silverspawn]

well I'm on board with lynching Awaclus. I think anyone that isn't WW is fine.

[iguanaiguana]

well I'm on board with lynching Awaclus. I think anyone that isn't WW is fine.

Isn't this basically saying "I am scum with Witherweaver." ?

[silverspawn]

well I'm on board with lynching Awaclus. I think anyone that isn't WW is fine.

Isn't this basically saying "I am scum with Witherweaver." ?

no, it's saying I have a town read on WW.

[iguanaiguana]

silver, when did you vote for Ash today? I can't find it.

[silverspawn]

silver, when did you vote for Ash today? I can't find it.

first post of the day

we should have lynched ash yesterday. as I was saying, while he pushed a mislynch.

[iguanaiguana]

silverspawn re-read:

#77: RVS votes WW, comments on Ash having a plan
Claims nothing to claim, talks theory about Hydrad's role
#123: first to criticize Joseph for VT claim
#127: disagrees with WW voting Awaclus because Awaclus voted Joseph. (IE: expresses that his view that Joseph could be scum faking ignorance)
#157: Votes for Joseph
#158: I'm scummiest after Joseph
#163: switches to me because I'm saying "I'm town" too much and 'downplaying it.'
#215: I post that we shouldn't lynch Ash or Awaclus and that their behavior is null. Haddock agrees. silver says "No, claiming that things are null is scummy."
#261 & 263: calls my vote on him OMGUS & confirmation bias
#267: Says my case on him is not the worst he's ever seen, describes how he's lurking because the game is boring and he's busy (implied: not because I'm sick of being scum.)
Argues with me some more when I push him. Just defending himself here. They're decent defenses, they make sense.
#313: says I can't be blamed for ash's vt claim.
#318: randomly votes for e. Kinda out of nowhere.  This is silver's third switch to a vote on someone who is now confirmed town. A little scummy.
He's then on board with a mass claim, claims VT (Enter WIFOM)
#373: Says "we know Awaclus will claim a PR, or scum has already lost."
#374: Says that among the VTs he's looking at Joseph and WW, but that it may be a mistake to give Ash a  pass. (This is before Awaclus claims VT).
#376: Says "let's give Ash a pass then" because e thinks Ash would claim a PR as scum.
#432: switches to voting for Ash after Awaclus claims.
#433: Grabs a scummy quote from Joseph (This is part of what pushed me to lynch Joseph, so now I'm kicking myself for being swayed by someone with a then-40% chance of being scum.)
#434: Gives his Ash-Joseph proposal
Now he argues with Ashersky. I've already discussed this. The whole "least experienced player" argument is a non-issue.
#566-7: Says he wants an Ash lynch even though the case Joseph/Ash case is weaker because they both would have had to screw up the claiming. Then says "But it's still the most likely." Kinda scummy
#591: Pushes for 2 of the 3 ICs to guide the lynch.
#632: Ask a rhetorical question implying that Ash/silver is impossible.
#648: Still thinks Ash is scum, despite Joseph flipping town. Doesn't address how Joseph's flip changes the game at all. Scummy.

Somehow silver gets put down as voting for Ash, but he hasn't actually? Confused by this. I don't see silver voting anywhere except in D1.
I don't think I need to paraphrase things he's said since I started doing these rereads, so I won't bother with that.

[iguanaiguana]

silver, when did you vote for Ash today? I can't find it.

first post of the day

we should have lynched ash yesterday. as I was saying, while he pushed a mislynch.

Thanks, found it. I got confused thinking that was still D1.

[iguanaiguana]

So I actually think that

WW/silver
and
Awaclus/silver

are both fairly likely. Ash/silver is totally not out of the question, either. But I'd call that less likely. I definitely think Ash comes off townier than silver, especially after rereading.

Silver says very little about WW or Awaclus. His townreading WW now seems really scummy to me. How can a VT townread another VT here when there is a 2/3rds chance of him being scum? How can silver just ignore Awaclus being willing to lynch Ash?

I really think silver/WW is the most likely pairing.

[Awaclus]

How can a VT townread another VT here when there is a 2/3rds chance of him being scum?

Well, this is not entirely accurate. From my perspective, ash and silver both have a 1/3 chance of being the Goon, 1/2 chance of being the JoaT and 1/6 chance of being town. WW has 1/3 chance of being the goon and 2/3 chance of being town. I have a scummier than townier read on WW so I find it strange, noteworthy and scummy that silver actually has a town read on him, but purely from a mathematical point of view, WW really is very significantly more likely to be town than the other two.

It's also worth noting again that if we do correctly lynch goon!ash or goon!silver, we 100% win the game, because then we just simply have so many ICs that even if we mislynch and scum NKs successfully, at LyLo it's going to be 2 ICs vs 1 scum which is obviously a win for town. If we correctly lynch goon!WW, it's still pretty good because we would have had to do that sooner or later anyway, but it's not that good because it doesn't create an additional IC.

[iguanaiguana]

Thanks for lurking, WW. I'm getting sick of these rereads:

#60: His RVS on e includes calling him scummy.
#90: Says e is (scum) buddying. Says Ash's plan gives scum a free ride to fake claim. Believes my claim.
#92: Considers Ash/Iguana team.
#96: The infamous "scummy" call for a massclaim that we ended up doing anyway.
#106: More attention to e for his early reads list.
#126: Votes Awaclus. I've discussed this.
#168: Still townreading me, scumreading e.
#175: Makes a joke that implies the scum team is Joseph/e
#177: Points out that Haddock's arguments for e being scum could be used by e against Haddock.
#189: Distrustful of Joseph
#209: Jokingly calls an Ash/Awaclus scum team.
#212: Says Awaclus is scummy for sharing thoughts. I find this comment scummy because Awaclus hadn't really shared many thoughts.
#236: Null on Haddock, but Haddock is the kind of person he "always finds scummy."
#269: Points out that the wagon on him "got no momentum," kinda weird because it was really just an RVS wagon (which was weird to begin with).
#333: Back to voting for Joseph
#347: Jokes about an Ash/e scumteam.
#359: first person to claim VT in the massclaim.
#396: Prefers Joseph/silver to Awaclus/Ash
#448: Doesn't want people to townread Awaclus for claiming last, because he thinks that scum!Awaclus claiming a PR makes him the first PR we lynch. He still prefers ss to Joseph. This pushing for ss seems to make ss/WW a less likely pairing.
#507: Twilight, pushes for Hydrad to shoot silver. Wants Hydrad to shoot.
#527: WW still leaning silver.
#538: The scummy turnaround. "Every VT wants to lynch silver, so at least one scum must want to lynch silver." as Ash pointed out, I think this makes me ww/ss more likely again. The thing is, WW was only pushing for a silver lynch when everyone else wanted a Joseph lynch. He was saying things to distance himself from silver, which is exactly what scum needs to do to win the game.
#543: Claims that Ash/silver argument escalated "unnaturally quickly," so Ash/silver is more likely than WW/ss
#548: says "scum wants to lynch silver is just a fact." True, unless you are scum, WW my friend. Because now you are trying to get people not to lynch silver.
#562: Starts pushing the Ash/Awaclus story. This is the same story that silver is currently pushing. Scummy.
#601: Makes a post where he's like "Gee, I'm sure glad I'm the goon and not JoAT, or me and silver woulda lost the game." Okay, I'm joking. Except, I'm not joking.
#644: Doesn't hammer, wants to re-read. Towniest thing he's done the whole game. But now he's gone.

[iguanaiguana]

Thoughts on the possible WW scumteams:

WW/ss seems most likely. WW 100% ignores everything silver says until the massclaim (scummy), then he scumreads silver at a point when it doesn't look like silver is likely to be lynched (scummy, and for scum at this point, a necessary risk in order to distance themselves), then he tries to clear silver by pointing out how everyone else is scumreading him (scummy).

WW/Awaclus: Pretty middle of the road. They didn't have many noteworthy interactions. Neither is pushing for each other's lynch right now though (Also Awaclus' recent "numbers" defense of WW just now) It's a possible pair. I already said this is Awaclus' most likely scum partner.

WW/Ash: Also possible. Uh, I can't think of anything intelligent to say about this.

Side note: WW proposes all kinds of bogus scum teams throughout D1. Most of them are no longer possible. Here they all are: Me/Ash, Joseph/e, Ash/Awaclus (still possible), Ash/e, Joseph/silver, Ash/silver (still possible). It's interesting to me that all of the teams he's suggested are now either flat out impossible or make it to my "Least likely scum teams" in my analysis. So this is another thing that's making me think WW is scum.

The main thing that's making me not want to lynch WW today is my result on him. If he's scum, he's the goon. And Awaclus just made sense about him too.

[iguanaiguana]

Last bit of work. I'm ranking scum teams from most likely to least likely.

ss/WW > ss/Awa > WW/Awa > WW/Ash > ss/Ash > Ash/Awa

That's where I'm at right now, I guess.

[2.71828.....]

hey, iguana and I have the same reads

[Witherweaver]

I don't understand why me proposing impossible scum teams Day 1 is scummy, like at all.  You can't go through a game without finding town scummy.

In other news, I'm starting to lean towards lynching Awaclus.

[iguanaiguana]

I don't understand why me proposing impossible scum teams Day 1 is scummy, like at all.  You can't go through a game without finding town scummy.

In other news, I'm starting to lean towards lynching Awaclus.

It's not the scummiest thing and you do it a lot. But just from a reads perspective, I doubt the VTs who spent the beginning of D1 tunneling people who are now confirmed town more than the VTs who did not do this, and townread the VTs who townread people who are now ICs before they were ICs more than the people who didn't do this.

Scum has a prerogative to create false scumreads, and they had no idea at the beginning of the game that so many people people would become ICs by the end of D1.

[iguanaiguana]

hey, iguana and I have the same reads

Yeah, kinda scummy lol

[Witherweaver]

I don't understand why me proposing impossible scum teams Day 1 is scummy, like at all.  You can't go through a game without finding town scummy.

In other news, I'm starting to lean towards lynching Awaclus.

It's not the scummiest thing and you do it a lot. But just from a reads perspective, I doubt the VTs who spent the beginning of D1 tunneling people who are now confirmed town more than the VTs who did not do this, and townread the VTs who townread people who are now ICs before they were ICs more than the people who didn't do this.

Scum has a prerogative to create false scumreads, and they had no idea at the beginning of the game that so many people people would become ICs by the end of D1.

But I also don't know who is scum, so everyone is a suspect. 

[iguanaiguana]

Look, I'll make you a deal.

Last time I did a big thing like this and scumread you, I was totally right (it was also totally obvious), and I never got to lynch you, and you won the game by poisoning me to death.

This time, I'm gunna lynch you (tomorrow, probably). If you are town this time, you can bring this is up next time and be like "But remember that other time when you were totally wrong about me?"

[Haddock]

Haddock, look at the facts and remove your vote. You and at least one scum are on your wagon, possibly two. If we lynch Ash today our very good chance of winning turns into a toss up.

Ugh, fine.

I lied before because I wanted to a) see interactions and b) survive the night.

I wouldn't have done it if I didn't think there was a good chance that the ash lynch would go through anyway, since both other ICs originally wanted to lynch ash.

Anyway now it looks like I'll have to claim my result to get an ash lynch through. 
My result on ash is not neutral, it incriminates him beyond doubt.

[2.71828.....]

nice.

I am good with vote: ashersky in that case

[Awaclus]

Was that the hammer?

[ashersky]

It was.

Well, I like the idea of faking/withholding result info to get reactions, but lying about yours on me being incriminating seems like bad form at L-1.

I still think SS is scum without a doubt, unclear on his partner.

Also, FYI, I am glad 2.7 was the hammer -- he's a very fitting player to get to lay claim to the last hammer ever on me.

Good luck everyone!

[Awaclus]

Well, I like the idea of faking/withholding result info to get reactions, but lying about yours on me being incriminating seems like bad form at L-1.

Which is why I highly doubt that was the case.

[Witherweaver]

Look, I'll make you a deal.

Last time I did a big thing like this and scumread you, I was totally right (it was also totally obvious), and I never got to lynch you, and you won the game by poisoning me to death.

This time, I'm gunna lynch you (tomorrow, probably). If you are town this time, you can bring this is up next time and be like "But remember that other time when you were totally wrong about me?"

If Ash is town then lynching me loses the game, so I don't like your plan.  I'll make you a  better deal.  We lynch the Mafia Goon and then I am 100% cleared.  It could have already happened.

[Awaclus]

Look, I'll make you a deal.

Last time I did a big thing like this and scumread you, I was totally right (it was also totally obvious), and I never got to lynch you, and you won the game by poisoning me to death.

This time, I'm gunna lynch you (tomorrow, probably). If you are town this time, you can bring this is up next time and be like "But remember that other time when you were totally wrong about me?"

If Ash is town then lynching me loses the game, so I don't like your plan.  I'll make you a  better deal.  We lynch the Mafia Goon and then I am 100% cleared.  It could have already happened.

How is ash town?

[Witherweaver]

I'm also confused, because:

The PRs and modifiers have been designed so none of the PRs can ever be 100% certain of their results!

[Witherweaver]

Look, I'll make you a deal.

Last time I did a big thing like this and scumread you, I was totally right (it was also totally obvious), and I never got to lynch you, and you won the game by poisoning me to death.

This time, I'm gunna lynch you (tomorrow, probably). If you are town this time, you can bring this is up next time and be like "But remember that other time when you were totally wrong about me?"

If Ash is town then lynching me loses the game, so I don't like your plan.  I'll make you a  better deal.  We lynch the Mafia Goon and then I am 100% cleared.  It could have already happened.

How is ash town?

.. how would you know?

[Haddock]

I'm also confused, because:

The PRs and modifiers have been designed so none of the PRs can ever be 100% certain of their results!

That's bothered me too.  But I think that's referring to the PRs - for every PR there's a PR modifier that could exist that messes with results.  Given that we know for certain that Ash is not a PR, I think it IS possible to be completely certain now (up to the possibility of lying town, which had better not be happening).

[Awaclus]

.. how would you know?

How would you not know? There's a result on him that incriminates him beyond doubt by an IC.

[Witherweaver]

.. how would you know?

How would you not know? There's a result on him that incriminates him beyond doubt by an IC.

Mistakes are things that happen.

And I don't know because I have no way of knowing.. this is a silly discussion.

[Witherweaver]

I also never said Ash is town and don't understand why you're having it in the first place.

[Awaclus]

Mistakes are things that happen.

No, they're not.

[Haddock]

I think we should probably keep this twilight discussion to a minimum now. 

It's only going to help the remaining scum pick a target more effectively.

[Witherweaver]

Mistakes are things that happen.

No, they're not.

Do you make an effort to be a caricature of yourself?

[silverspawn]

I told you!

[silverspawn]

The fact that two people who reread both of us came to the conclusion that ash is townier blows my mind, though. Making sense is apparently scummier than adhering to confirmation bias.

[silverspawn]

you even said it. well, about a part.

They're decent defenses, they make sense.

[iguanaiguana]

Eh, you were scummy!

[Witherweaver]

Can we do this flippy thing?

[iguanaiguana]

So if Ash is scum, wouldn't that make WW the only person who could be the partner...?

Bussing Ash loses you the game and all...

[silverspawn]

why does bussing lose the game for the scum partner?

[ashersky]

why does bussing lose the game for the scum partner?

The remaining players can lynch all VTs in any order and win.

[ashersky]

Which is also why we know this is a mislynch unless WW is scum.

[silverspawn]

no, that doesn't sound logical. scum wins when there are no more towns than scums. Lynching a scum decreases the number of town and scum by 1. That doesn't make it impossible to lose. I think the scum players need all of the VT's lynched to win - whether one of them gets lynched too is irrelevant.

[ashersky]

SS still hasn't paraphrased is QT.  easiest scum tell ever.

[Witherweaver]

I think scum still wins even if Ash is scum and we mislynch the rest of the game. 

[silverspawn]

I think scum still wins even if Ash is scum and we mislynch the rest of the game.

?slip!

[silverspawn]

oh, nvm, I get what you're saying. Yeah, exactly.

[iguanaiguana]

Ah ok then 

[2.71828.....]

Also, FYI, I am glad 2.7 was the hammer -- he's a very fitting player to get to lay claim to the last hammer ever on me.

Gotta get those hammer stats

[gkrieg13]

THREAD LOCKED

As they all gathered round to find the cause of Hydrad's death, one of them noticed a knife sticking out of ashersky's pocket.  ashersky said," I've never seen that knife before!"  As they talked it over, they decided he was guilty of death


Vote Count 2.final

ashersky (4): ss, Haddock, Awaclus, 2.7
ss (2): ashersky, iguanaiguana

Not Voting (1): WW

With seven alive it took four to lynch.

ashersky has been lynched!  He was the Mafia JOAT

N2 begins now and ends in 48 hrs or February 24, 2016, 12:00:00 pm.  Night actions due in 36 hrs

[gkrieg13]

Night actions due in ~10 hours

[gkrieg13]

e has been killed in the night!

He was an Insane Bodyguard


As everyone started their day, they were excited to see what the fall out would be from their exciting discovery...

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting (5): Haddock, WW, Iguana, Awaclus, ss

With five alive it takes three to lynch. Day three ends [time]March 6, 10AM[/time]

Thread Unlocked!

[Haddock]

This game is over.

I'm a Loud Cop.  WW is town.

We can lynch SS and Awaclus in any order to win.

I think SS is the best first bet.

[Witherweaver]

I've been targetted by Haddock~

[Witherweaver]

That's good.

I think Awaclus is better than SS, but I haven't really done analysis or rereading over the night.

[silverspawn]

finally.

see? I was right!

[silverspawn]

This game is over.

I'm a Loud Cop.  WW is town.

We can lynch SS and Awaclus in any order to win.

I think SS is the best first bet.

I demand that we lynch Awaclus first. I want to be alive at the end of the game.

[silverspawn]

vote: Awaclus

[silverspawn]

plus, it speeds things up . . .

[Haddock]

Well, OK, whatever.  Let's wait for II to show, but yeah I don't really care that much about the order.

[Haddock]

Just double checking to myself - this does work, right?

5 alive, lynch 1 kill one gives a 2v1 LyLo which is confirmed anyway.  OK.

[silverspawn]

yeah, and the setup doesn't allow for any crazy double kills or failed lynches or anything like that, so there are no outs.

I gotta say that the setup is prob not balanced, though.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, I'm okay with Awaclus;  as much as I like the Silver vs. Ash constructed argument idea, it's not the most likely one, and not really Ash's style.

And it also doesn't matter, so~

[Haddock]

It probably COULD be balanced, but the RNG has been very much in our favour with strong investigative roles.

I guess e saved me?  Can't imagine scum targetted him over a claimed investigative role.

[Witherweaver]

It probably COULD be balanced, but the RNG has been very much in our favour with strong investigative roles.

I guess e saved me?  Can't imagine scum targetted him over a claimed investigative role.

I'm sure they targeted you.  Iguana's PR doesn't do anything now.

[silverspawn]

yeah . . . the idea that randomized setups are always balanced is a myth, they all have huge swing in powerlevel. But the problem with this is that town can so effectively split the lynchpool, regardless of RNG. Obviously scum should distribute themselves 1/1 among VT claims / PR claims and not 2/0, but even then it's like town gets a sensor result for free. super powerful. Lynch correctly once, and all other players on that half are ICs.

[iguanaiguana]

Gotta be Awaclus. Vote: Awaclus

Doesn't matter though, we win either way.

[Witherweaver]

Going to hammer

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Awaclus

[iguanaiguana]

This is an embarassing game for me. Ash buddied me and played me for a fool. Sorry silver and WW.

[Haddock]

OK, vote: Awaclus.  Just to be in on the action.

[gkrieg13]

Just as the sun rose, they decided to lynch Awaclus, while he was still asleep in his bed...


Vote Count 3.final

Awaclus (3): ss, iguanaiguana, Witherweaver

Not Voting (2): Awaclus, Haddock

With five alive it took three to lynch.

Awaclus has been lynched!  He was the Mafia goon

TOWN WINS!

[gkrieg13]

QTs:

modQTs: w/ ash: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/LZA9ARDBSqX
              w/ RR: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/sUtkURu3Kxg5
speccy:  http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/ifTtzeBGPuxh
mafia:  http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/DsDeTG9Mdd79

I will leave sharing personal QTs up to everyone!

[Witherweaver]

This is my QT, not a lot in it: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/unfqq2uVCByT

[Haddock]

Mine: http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/fq5PKJcwKhGNJ

[gkrieg13]

I agree with sentiments in the speccy and in the thread that this setup isn't very balanced.  One reason I believe it felt so lopsided is because both of the scum decided to claim VT.  I think if one of them had claimed PR, it would've been closer to being balanced.

A couple of ideas for balancing it are:
Give PRs unknown modifiers
Give everyone unknown modifiers
Have a variable number of PRs (3-5) or something like that
Check the roll of PRs to ensure they aren't too strong

Does anyone have ideas on how to balance this setup?

[iguanaiguana]

How does insane bodyguard work?

[Haddock]

Yeah I felt a bit bad for scum.  But to be fair they didn't help themselves by both claiming VT.  Still would have been hard for them to win though.

[iguanaiguana]

Stronger scum roles could have helped balance it.

[gkrieg13]

How does insane bodyguard work?

Insane doesn't change anything except for cops. 

[gkrieg13]

Stronger scum roles could have helped balance it.

If you look in my first mod QT with ash, I suggest that scum having knowledge of what PRs were in the game would've also helped to balance it

[iguanaiguana]

When you think about Awaclus' choice, I don't blame him. If he claims a PR then either he or e is getting lynched and he's surviving at most two days. Haddock was loud so we don't lynch him and me and Hydrad had town cred for claiming early.

[yuma]

Variable number of PRs I think would be the best. Biggest problem here is the idea to just have the four PRs claim. If at least one mafia claims it won't be as bad for them, but it will still be somewhat difficult.

I think ranging from probably 2-5 with varying degrees of power for mafia depending on the number of PRs given to town would be the way to go.

[silverspawn]

my QT

By the time ash asked me to paraphrase, it had 3 posts, 2 of them from the mod.

[iguanaiguana]

QT http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/zcDZ2sKkLJD

[ashersky]

http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/SnrbBeDw5sy

[Hydrad]

http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/BXxUjR89A48Mv

I acually used it a bit this game. but only to really think if I should shoot or not. I'm glad e and stuff posted before the day ended warning that I maybe shouldn't shoot as I might have not thought it through and just gone for it.

[Roadrunner7671]

I think co-modding was a good experiance for me. I didn't do as much actual stuff as I thought I would, but there wasn't too much to be done in a normal game with nine players.

But co-modding was a great experiance, I think there may be a Roadrunner game in the future!

[gkrieg13]

I think co-modding was a good experiance for me. I didn't do as much actual stuff as I thought I would, but there wasn't too much to be done in a normal game with nine players.

But co-modding was a great experiance, I think there may be a Roadrunner game in the future!

Yay!  auto /in

[iguanaiguana]

I think there may be a Roadrunner game in the future!

I'll be hammering.

[yuma]

I think there may be a Roadrunner game in the future!

Looney Tunes themed?

[iguanaiguana]

I think there may be a Roadrunner game in the future!

Looney Tunes themed?

Probably Scout themed, if that hasn't been done already...

[Awaclus]

I think this setup would be very challenging but not unreasonably so for scum as long as town doesn't get a cop. The cop just made it entirely impossible.

[Haddock]

Yep. You had to kill me N1 or lose automatically. Which seems kind of insane.

[Haddock]

I guess we need an MVP.

e probably competes for that, noble self-sacrifice and everything.

[ashersky]

I guess we need an MVP.

e probably competes for that, noble self-sacrifice and everything.

Definitely 2.7.

He took my plan and realized that the mass PR claim basically ensured a win.  He convinced Hydrad not to shoot.  He saved you.

Definitely 2.7.

(Also, me if you want to think outside the box, for starting the plan talk.  But really, 2.7.)

[faust]

I think this setup would be very challenging but not unreasonably so for scum as long as town doesn't get a cop. The cop just made it entirely impossible.

Cops suck.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry I still need to pick MVP.

[gkrieg13]

I am deciding between Haddock and ashersky for MVP but it is difficult.  Haddock has good PR choices, but he was unable to get a lynch on ash without outing himself as a cop.  Ashersky played well to not be detected, but there was the whole drunk claiming VT thing.  He also wasn't on the winning team.

I think for overall play, I have to give MVP to ashersky

[2.71828.....]

So, am I allowed to disagree. 2 things I think ashersky could have done that might have won the game:

1) not kill hydrad (debatable)
2) Use godfather.

This second one is beyond question. Godfather makes Ash IC and scum probably wins. Well, still maybe not due to PoE.  But a clutch godfather would have been mvp in my opinion. Also, ash hit L-1 before the haddock even claimed. So played well not to be detected is a stretch.

But maybe people disagree with me, plus mod has final say

[gkrieg13]

So, am I allowed to disagree. 2 things I think ashersky could have done that might have won the game:

1) not kill hydrad (debatable)
2) Use godfather.

This second one is beyond question. Godfather makes Ash IC and scum probably wins. Well, still maybe not due to PoE.  But a clutch godfather would have been mvp in my opinion. Also, ash hit L-1 before the haddock even claimed. So played well not to be detected is a stretch.

But maybe people disagree with me, plus mod has final say

Of course you are allowed to disagree!  It was kinda a weird game anyway, so I thought there would be disagreement.  My feeling was that ash wouldn't have been lynched had Haddock not claimed.  I agree that godfather would've made the choice easier for MVP. 

[2.71828.....]

But.....Haddock claimed. So this is a part on the back, good ole try mvp. Not a you helped win the game, congrats mvp

[2.71828.....]

*pat

[iguanaiguana]

Godfather wasn't the best choice statistically?

[ashersky]

Godfather wasn't the best choice statistically?

That's where I ended up.  In the QT, I started off with Godfather, as that was my gut reaction.  I tried being more rational given the possibilities and switched.  Staying with GF would have been the significantly better result, but would have been luck-based, right?

As for the drunk claim, believe what you will, but I did "decide" to claim purposefully.  Besides, that whole sequence, including QT posts, while being embarrassing in retrospect, was pretty hilarious.

Thanks gkrieg.  I think you should run this setup again with a few tweaks.  We could get it to a standard setup I think.

[Awaclus]

I think you should run this setup again with a few tweaks.  We could get it to a standard setup I think.

Just removing Cop from the list of possible town roles would go a long way.

[gkrieg13]

I think you should run this setup again with a few tweaks.  We could get it to a standard setup I think.

Just removing Cop from the list of possible town roles would go a long way.

I agree. I also want to keep the modifiers hidden and make a variable number of PRs