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Author Topic: Dominion: Seasons  (Read 162713 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #175 on: January 18, 2016, 01:29:12 pm »
+1

Fwiw, I don't think trade port is at all too similar to Treasury. Just because both have the ability to get an extra coin each turn unless certain things are met? So? That's one small thing that they have in common. That's like saying Goons is too similar to Woodcutter. This is different than Treasury in lots of ways. Doesn't work in winter. Does nothing the turn you play it. Gives a buy. Let's you buy green. Is terminal when played. Can't be hurt by discard attacks.

I think the extra coin is a big thing, not a small thing. It's not at all like the difference between Goons and Workshop.  The concern is not only that it's too similar, but that the differences are big improvements with only small drawbacks.  And the comparison shouldn't be to Treasury alone, but Market as well. 

If it cost more than $5 or the drawbacks/differences were more pronounced, I don't think there would be nearly as much concern about this.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #176 on: January 18, 2016, 01:43:25 pm »
+2

Wow, I saw 2 new pages in the thread and thought "yay! New seasons cards posted!"...  :-\

Trading post feels pretty near to strictly superior to a few cards, being terminal on play only marginally balancing the advantage it has over Treasury, in my opinion.
I think it needs another handicap that would make it more unique and give the other poor Peddler variants a chance to compare favorably.
As a random thought: "while this is in play, if you buy a treasure, trash this" (or discard, but I prefer trash as it's less Treasurish).
I just noticed that this wording doesn't really work since it doesn't stop the card from giving you the bonus. So if you are ever going to try something of the kind, you'll have to use something creative like:
"At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn for the rest of the game, if this is in play..."
Or: "At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn until you trash this, ..."

Hmm, so is the name too similar to Trading Post by any chance? Maybe it's no worse than Mint vs Mine or Hunting Party vs Hunting Grounds, but when I read this post, I didn't realize that he had made a mistake, and it took me a bit of re-reading to realize that the card being discussed here was called Trade Port, not Trading Post.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #177 on: January 18, 2016, 01:57:50 pm »
0

Fwiw, I don't think trade port is at all too similar to Treasury. Just because both have the ability to get an extra coin each turn unless certain things are met? So? That's one small thing that they have in common. That's like saying Goons is too similar to Woodcutter. This is different than Treasury in lots of ways. Doesn't work in winter. Does nothing the turn you play it. Gives a buy. Let's you buy green. Is terminal when played. Can't be hurt by discard attacks.

I think the extra coin is a big thing, not a small thing. It's not at all like the difference between Goons and Workshop.  The concern is not only that it's too similar, but that the differences are big improvements with only small drawbacks.  And the comparison shouldn't be to Treasury alone, but Market as well. 

If it cost more than $5 or the drawbacks/differences were more pronounced, I don't think there would be nearly as much concern about this.

What about Noble Brigand vs Thief? I know a lot of us have complained about that, but Donald didn't think it was a problem. To me, the drawback that Noble Brigand has is way smaller than the drawback that Trade Port has. And the pluses that Noble Brigand adds to Thief are stronger than the pluses that Trade Port adds to Treasury.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #178 on: January 18, 2016, 02:15:41 pm »
+1

Fwiw, I don't think trade port is at all too similar to Treasury. Just because both have the ability to get an extra coin each turn unless certain things are met? So? That's one small thing that they have in common. That's like saying Goons is too similar to Woodcutter. This is different than Treasury in lots of ways. Doesn't work in winter. Does nothing the turn you play it. Gives a buy. Let's you buy green. Is terminal when played. Can't be hurt by discard attacks.

I think the extra coin is a big thing, not a small thing. It's not at all like the difference between Goons and Workshop.  The concern is not only that it's too similar, but that the differences are big improvements with only small drawbacks.  And the comparison shouldn't be to Treasury alone, but Market as well. 

If it cost more than $5 or the drawbacks/differences were more pronounced, I don't think there would be nearly as much concern about this.

What about Noble Brigand vs Thief? I know a lot of us have complained about that, but Donald didn't think it was a problem. To me, the drawback that Noble Brigand has is way smaller than the drawback that Trade Port has. And the pluses that Noble Brigand adds to Thief are stronger than the pluses that Trade Port adds to Treasury.

Thief is already super weak though, so it seems less a problem to me.  I would rarely get Thief over Noble Brigand, but I would rarely get Thief period so it's not a big change there.  Moreover, on the boards where I do want Thief, it's likely that I would prefer it over Noble Brigand, or at least wouldn't mind much either way.  Whereas I think I'd solidly prefer Trade Port over both Market and Treasury outside of very specific scenarios.

I also disagree that the drawback on Trade Port is bigger, or that the advantage is smaller, compared to Noble Brigand vs. Thief.  But that's just speculation.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #179 on: January 18, 2016, 03:42:18 pm »
+3

I'm guessing Trade Port is fine as-is. It's very significant that it does nothing in Winter; if you had a Treasury, you may be drawing your deck by that point anyway, in which case Treasury is still a Peddler. And the fact that Trade Port does nothing on the turn you play it is also a big disadvantage.

Asper and I both agree Trade Port is fine balance-wise but we are currently working on giving the card some more unique feature to set it apart more from Treasury. We are tending towards giving you another drawback in Winter while you get to keep either the +$1 or the +1 Buy. Since this will take some more testing, we will post the next card later this evening to make room for new discussion.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #180 on: January 18, 2016, 06:53:42 pm »
+10



Ballroom is a Season card that changes in the middle of the game. For the first half, it plays a cheaper action cards from the supply and adds it to your deck. In the second half, when the supply might or might not be going dry, it switches to playing action cards twice. The right thing at the right time.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #181 on: January 18, 2016, 06:54:57 pm »
+1

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #182 on: January 18, 2016, 07:03:46 pm »
0

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 07:07:10 pm by Asper »
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enfynet

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #183 on: January 18, 2016, 07:06:13 pm »
+1

I really like this one. My only concern would be the $5 cost, but it does serve a dual function.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #184 on: January 18, 2016, 07:08:53 pm »
+1

I literally opening this page just as the song I was listening to (Helpless from Hamilton) played the word Ballroom. :)

This is a really nice design, that uses the Season marker interestingly.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #185 on: January 18, 2016, 07:09:55 pm »
+1

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #186 on: January 18, 2016, 07:27:44 pm »
0

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?

No. It's better because it's a gainer as long as the supply is full of cards you want, and a Throne Room when your deck is full of cards you want. Theoretically, that is.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #187 on: January 18, 2016, 07:29:32 pm »
0

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?

No. It's better because it's a gainer as long as the supply is full of cards you want, and a Throne Room when your deck is full of cards you want. Theoretically, that is.

Ah, yes, I see. Yeah: that makes sense.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2016, 07:38:57 pm »
+1

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?

I think Asper means that it's better as TR at that point in the game, whereas it's better as the gainer early on - thus the comment, "the right thing at the right time".  (PPE: beaten to the punch!)

That sounds about right to me.  Early on, TR is not great because you don't yet have the action density to support it.  Ballroom actually helps you achieve that action density though.  OTOH, the gaining effect is less valuable late game (when you might not see the card again before the end of the game, and when the card you most want might have piled out already) but playing a card twice may be just what you need.

My question is how it compares to Band of Misfits.  Gaining a card and immediately playing it is a lot like what BoM does except you also get the gain.  Unlike the comparison between Trade Port and Market/Treasury, I do think that there are significant differences here.  The functional change in Fall is a major shift, for one thing, and Fall is early enough that you can expect the change to matter a lot in most games.

Even so, I think that it's a good comparison to consider.  My guess is that Ballroom will be a better choice a lot of the time, but it may be very important that BoM continues to provide its flexibility in Fall and Winter.  Also, the gain from Ballroom may quickly go from blessing to curse if you use it on terminals too often.  Empyting piles may also lead to more games ending by 3-pile, which may be good or bad.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #189 on: January 18, 2016, 08:10:11 pm »
0

I'm not sure whether we played a game with both BR and BoM but we thought a lot about the similarities and differences. You already summed them up quite nicely. The most important difference are IMO pile control (Ball Room has it) and long-flexibility especially with a lot of terminals in the Kingdom you don't want a ton of in your deck (Band of Misfits provides more benefit here). We are convinced those two cards play out very differently due to the fact that BR gains while BoM doesn't and the mid-year shift which can make BR much stronger. Obviously, both cards are extremely board dependent.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #190 on: January 18, 2016, 08:29:52 pm »
+1

My personal focus was that gaining cards might sometimes not be what you want. If you need terminal draw now, that doesn't necessarily mean you need more cards that do it. Ballroom also empties the pile that BoM would leave untouched, which might work for or against it - you can have 15 "Villages" in your deck thanks to BoM, but the same does not apply to Ballroom. Of course, if both are in the same kingdom, Ballroom "steals" them away from BoM, so it's actually an interaction, too. I think BoM has an advantage if you only got to gain it a bit later (with "late" being much earlier here than with Trade Port), or if some cards in the kingdom are good only for a certain timespan or in certain situations. Moneylender, Baron or Coppersmith might be candidates, maybe even the (few) cheap junkers. I mean, sure, i want to play a lot of Sea Hags. But do i want to own a lot of Sea Hags?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #191 on: January 18, 2016, 08:34:54 pm »
+1

Does Ballroom actually have pile-control? Assuming you end before turn 21, it has no gain ability for the latter half of the game.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #192 on: January 18, 2016, 08:41:32 pm »
0

Does Ballroom actually have pile-control? Assuming you end before turn 21, it has no gain ability for the latter half of the game.

Well, maybe I should have rather said "pile influence" in the beginning of the game - it has more of that than BoM, there you go  ::)
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2016, 09:16:58 pm »
+2



Ballroom is a Season card that changes in the middle of the game. For the first half, it plays a cheaper action cards from the supply and adds it to your deck. In the second half, when the supply might or might not be going dry, it switches to playing action cards twice. The right thing at the right time.

I think this may be my new TR-variant (previous was Royal Carriage).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #194 on: January 18, 2016, 11:42:20 pm »
+5

Ballroom is awesome.  I was skeptical at first, but I am now officially a huge fan of this set.  I think this is the only mechanic we've seen besides Alchemy that provides enough space to create an entire set of cards using that mechanic, while still having the set function as a coherent and complete expansion (and also still giving you lots of new room for unique ideas).

Also, I think the name Ballroom is really clever.  In the first half of the game, the card is similar to the first half of its name, Ball.  During the second half of the game, the card is like Throne Room, represented by the second half of its name, room.
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nate_w

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #195 on: January 19, 2016, 08:36:48 am »
+1

I like Ballroom a lot.  I'm pretty strongly in the "Ballroom > B.O.M." camp, mostly due to this reason:

There are boards where B.O.M. might be better than Ballroom, but most of those boards you don't really want B.O.M. anyway.  When you DO want B.O.M., I think you would almost always just prefer Ballroom. 

But I don't think it's stronger enough to be broken.  I'd probably put this at #15 or so on my list of $5 cards (so, very high). 

I actually think the better comparison in terms of function than to BOM is to Workshop.  It fills the same role as workshop, but is MUCH stronger in the early game, and morphs into a throne room right around the time you want it to.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #196 on: January 19, 2016, 01:59:15 pm »
+1

Also, I think the name Ballroom is really clever.  In the first half of the game, the card is similar to the first half of its name, Ball.  During the second half of the game, the card is like Throne Room, represented by the second half of its name, room.

Thanks. It wasn't always named Ballroom. The name was changed mostly because we didn't like the old picture, and we didn't find any that were better and went with that name. I stumbled over a Ballroom picture when actually looking for another name i thought about, and liked Ballroom better. Now that i think about it, it's more like Summon than like Ball... Just, Summon Room isn't a good name. Either way, the mechanic came first..
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #197 on: January 20, 2016, 12:50:04 pm »
+1

I like this card very much too. The first phase seems super strong, most likely the strongest gainer in the game. However, I think this card is still nicely balanced by reducing the effect for the first 10 turns. It might still get crazy in chapel decks, but usually it should not break the game.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2016, 12:57:36 pm »
+1

I just realized the similarity between Ballroom and India (the community-created card), as they are both gainers that can play a gained action. India can gain cards costing more than , and it can gain non-Action cards as well. On the other hand, it requires remodeling, which is both a plus and a minus.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #199 on: January 20, 2016, 02:40:54 pm »
+2

Wow, this looks really awesome! I worked on a similar concept before (with a "Day and Night"-system in a Horror setting), but never got around to finishing it. This looks perfect, though. Well done!
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