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[461.weavile]

This pseudo-complaining about the combination of +Cards and +Coins has gone on long enough. If you don't like it, there are two options here: don't buy it when it's in the Kingdom; or suggest something to Cookie and Asper that will make it better without increasing the word count or changing the flavor - if you do an amazing job, they've been known to thoroughly investigate suggestions. If you can't do better, I suppose you also would never buy Pawn and choose +1 Card and +(1), lest you become a hypocrite; sometimes you just want a card and a coin. (INB4: "Pawn isn't terminal draw.")

The "discussion" has devolved from being constructive criticism and clarifications to arguing over a moot point. If you want to continue debating the relative power of the four possible combinations of +Cards and +Coins totaling 3 bonuses, start a new thread in the appropriate location - I doubt saying "I don't like it" will change the card text.

I apologize for being aggressive, but Weavile have been know to have short tempers, and you guys are diluting my enjoyment.

[Accatitippi]

Yet I dare say Davio's interpretation is the correct one. There's no reason one should resolve the instructions of a card in a different order than they're written in. 

I don't get it. Plantation doesn't instruct you to "look" at any cards.

You look at the cards you've drawn from "+2 Cards" after they're in your hand.

Yes, it follows by this simple logic:

A: When you draw cards, you pull them from the top of your deck and add them to your hand
B: You may look at the cards in your hand at all times
=> You may look at the cards you have drawn

I mistook your "interpretation" for a "suggestion" but no, of course Plantation works that way. This is why I wrote it gains a lot of flexibility in Summer and Winter. And usually like 70% of Plantation games take place in Summer.

Yep, I was confused about what you were meaning but we were on the same page all along.

[eHalcyon]

My overall argument is that +card and +coin are actually pretty close in power on a terminal card.  Card is better overall, but coin is not far behind can become preferable depending on the board.

As I already pointed out, Wharf and Merchant Ship are the clearest illustration of why cards are superior to coins. Of course you can analyze the duration effect of both cards as double Peddler respectively double Lab but this doesn't change the fact that cards are usually better than coins. You wanna get through your deck and usually draw something better than copper midgame.
On a sidenote, I think that it is moderately irrelevant to make this seperation between terminal and non-terminal. Of course you need to stick with this assumption to maintain your argument as everybody knows that Lab is far better than Peddler.

So that was a typo in your previous post then.  Just checking.

Card is better than coin.  I'm not arguing that.  But the gap is smaller and fuzzier when it comes to terminals, as demonstrated by my gradient of vanilla examples above (PPE: and re-quoted below).  Wharf vs. Merchant Ship are not as relevant to the degree of power difference here because they have a non-terminal component.  And in the end, they both cost $5.  The difference between Wharf and Merchant Ship is smaller than the difference between Lab, Peddler and Silver.

If you're going to call the importance of terminality irrelevant, you should provide a counterexample.  I've already provided evidence for this commonly accepted understanding.

Of course there is nothing wrong with an engine that consists of some villages and some terminal coin cards like Pirate Ship or Harvest or whatever. But usually you want the virtual coins if anywhere on your villages and terminal draws just to terminally draw. As faust has pointed out, the mixture of both seems to be inferior to the pure versions. For example a mixture between Merchant Ship and Wharf sounds pretty weak (it'd probably still be a 5$ but most of the time inferior to either of the individual cards) to me. It neither has enough draw power nor does it provide enough coins to make you able to run a pure engine instead of getting some gold.

That is ALSO something that I already pointed out.  You keep arguing against me with stuff I wrote first.  It is a confusing style of rhetoric.

About Mercenary, this is obviously a joke. Very often you do not have an extra action when you draw with this card. As it is first and above all a trasher it illustrates that DXV has not done any real mixture between terminal draw and virtual coins except for a trasher which rarely can use its little bonus. Ample of terminal draws, ample of terminal silvers and other terminal virtual coins, only one mixture of both. The reason for this fact is faust's point: the mxiture of both is weak.

Is it terminal draw?  Does it provide virtual coins?  Then it is a REAL mixture between terminal draw and virtual coins and a counterexample to your earlier claim.  And again, faust's point was my point first.  Man, I'll even quote myself.  It is literally right above the snippet you quoted.

The theoretical terminal +$3 is relevant because it is another step on subbing vanilla bonus for vanilla bonus.  Here they all are:

A) +3 cards: Smithy, a decent $4 card
B) +2 cards, +$1: the first form of Plantation, under debate
C) +1 card, +$2: something that shouldn't exist
D) +$3: a theoretical decent $5 card

All of one or the other is preferable because you'll buy that card for a specific purpose and being a generalist is generally less useful.  Option C is a special case of unfunness because +1 card isn't enough to be helpful for draw in an engine and can hurt you when you draw something dead.  Option B is still OK though.  I agree that it's weaker than a flat +3 cards, but it's still OK.  +2 cards can suffice for an engine and +$1 is an OK extra bonus.

And for fun, I'll also quote this instance of you arguing at me with my own point, in case I was too subtle about it earlier:

The relevant issue seems to be, as always, not these theoretical musings but the empirical facts, i.e. what Asper told about playtesting: that the Winter/Summer part of Plantation is played most often.

Also note that it will usually be in its stronger version for more than half the game since you won't be playing it much in Spring, if at all, and the on-gain effect will also tilt time in its favour.

I guess I should be happy that you agree with my ideas when it's not me posting them?

This pseudo-complaining about the combination of +Cards and +Coins has gone on long enough. If you don't like it, there are two options here: don't buy it when it's in the Kingdom; or suggest something to Cookie and Asper that will make it better without increasing the word count or changing the flavor - if you do an amazing job, they've been known to thoroughly investigate suggestions. If you can't do better, I suppose you also would never buy Pawn and choose +1 Card and +(1), lest you become a hypocrite; sometimes you just want a card and a coin. (INB4: "Pawn isn't terminal draw.")

The "discussion" has devolved from being constructive criticism and clarifications to arguing over a moot point. If you want to continue debating the relative power of the four possible combinations of +Cards and +Coins totaling 3 bonuses, start a new thread in the appropriate location - I doubt saying "I don't like it" will change the card text.

I apologize for being aggressive, but Weavile have been know to have short tempers, and you guys are diluting my enjoyment.

I appreciate the sentiment, but this isn't even close to being a derailment.  Why stop relevant discussion?  I think the card works so I'm going to defend it.

[tristan]

Is it terminal draw?  Does it provide virtual coins?  Then it is a REAL mixture between terminal draw and virtual coins and a counterexample to your earlier claim.

Mercenary is first and above all a trasher and a handsize attack. Pretty hard to use it as a consistent engine piece as you rarely draw a village, Mercenary and two junk cards. ^^

There is a reason no official (except for Mercenary) terminal card that draws and provides coins exists.

Doesn't mean that Plantation is bad. All I argued for is that "+2 Cards, +1$" is a strong 2$ / weak 3$ and thus significantly weaker than Smithy. Empirically speaking Plantation is rarely weak and if you roll with Davio's literal reading of the card the mid-action-choice between card and coin is novel enough to make the card interesting (and decent enough, if not particularly strong, for a 5$).

This pseudo-complaining about the combination of +Cards and +Coins has gone on long enough.

First of all, unless you want a scripted discussion it is fairly natural that a thread gets mildly derailed.
Second, I did not complain about anything but claimed that there is a good reason that only one card exists which combines terminal draw with coins. But even if I would have complained about something, it is not your job to tell somebody to shut up.
Third, this again does not imply that Plantation should not exist as a) you can do all fancy stuff with fan cards and b) Plantation is more complex than a mere combination of card and coins. Being able to choose whether you want another card or a coin after you have already drawn some cards is a significant asset.

[Asper]

Please, guys. I think we can take a little discussion that's only tangantially related to our cards. Better than no discussion, that's for sure. I appreciate you coming to our help, Weavile, but really, we can take it, and you never know wwhat might grow from such a discussion.

[eHalcyon]

Mercenary is first and above all a trasher and a handsize attack. Pretty hard to use it as a consistent engine piece as you rarely draw a village, Mercenary and two junk cards. ^^

There is a reason no official (except for Mercenary) terminal card that draws and provides coins exists.

Yes, but it still suffices as a counterexample to your earlier claim.  So why did you call it "obviously a joke"?  You can add counterexamples to an exception list to make any statement trivially true, but that's not productive.

There may be a reason, but we don't know what it actually is.  My guess is that it's just more fun to have all of one or the other.  Do you have a reference to Secret Histories or something that discusses that?  I'd be interested in reading it.  I think I'll just go ask...

Doesn't mean that Plantation is bad. All I argued for is that "+2 Cards, +1$" is a strong 2$ / weak 3$ and thus significantly weaker than Smithy. Empirically speaking Plantation is rarely weak and if you roll with Davio's literal reading of the card the mid-action-choice between card and coin is novel enough to make the card interesting (and decent enough, if not particularly strong, for a 5$).

It's down 1 card and up $1, which may be weaker but not significantly so.  It would be a strong $3.  You can compare it to Oracle if you want, but it's a pretty even comparison.  Oracle sometimes let's you improve your draw with its sifting, and sometimes it doesn't because your next 2 cards are already good.  Plantation always gives you a bonus +$1.

That's not all you argued.  The importance of terminality was the other thing of note.  But I guess we're mostly in agreement now?  Cool?

@Asper, you can reset the discussion at any point by posting a new card.

[eHalcyon]

Mercenary is the only terminal with both +cards and +coins.  Were other such terminals ever tested?  If so, why were they scrapped?

That's not exactly true. Tribute for example can do that. And uh Storeroom.

The main set at one point had "+2 Cards +$2," for $5. It was dull. It also seemed strong, given my technology at the time.

Smaller amounts, e.g. "+1 Card +$2," always just look wonky to me. Man just go ahead and give +3 of something. Larger amounts have the problem of needing to be really expensive (or saddled with penalties, or expensive in an unusual way like travellers). "+2 Cards +$2" itself isn't impossible; Prosperity could have managed that with a bonus. I had it on a Peasant upgrade when the 5 cards at each level were all unique.

[GendoIkari]

The very fact that there's an on-gain ability pretty much throws comparisons to similar on-play cards out the window. I mean, look at Mandarin vs Count! On-play, Count can be exactly Mandarin, or it can be 8 other options. Way better, for the same cost. But Mandarin has an on-gain.

And Plantation's on-gain is quite relevant. In a game with just Plantation, it gets you to and keeps you in Summer. With other Season cards, it sounds like it could be quite strong.

[wachsmuth]

Is it terminal draw?  Does it provide virtual coins?  Then it is a REAL mixture between terminal draw and virtual coins and a counterexample to your earlier claim.

Mercenary is first and above all a trasher and a handsize attack. Pretty hard to use it as a consistent engine piece as you rarely draw a village, Mercenary and two junk cards. ^^

This is true, but there is an exception in Fortress - with Fortress on the board, Mercenary draw engines are available and actually pretty great. Apparently Beggar-Mercenary is also a thing.

There is a reason no official (except for Mercenary) terminal card that draws and provides coins exists.

This is really edge casey, but Trusty Steed, Tribute and Vault can get terminal draw and coin.

[Davio]

The very fact that there's an on-gain ability pretty much throws comparisons to similar on-play cards out the window. I mean, look at Mandarin vs Count! On-play, Count can be exactly Mandarin, or it can be 8 other options. Way better, for the same cost. But Mandarin has an on-gain.

And Plantation's on-gain is quite relevant. In a game with just Plantation, it gets you to and keeps you in Summer. With other Season cards, it sounds like it could be quite strong.

I feel this isn't emphasized enough.

There are better villages than Inn, but gaining it at with an empty draw deck is amazing.
I feel gaining a Plantation at the right time might also be very nice and gaining it mid-turn could make all the difference.

[tristan]

Is it terminal draw?  Does it provide virtual coins?  Then it is a REAL mixture between terminal draw and virtual coins and a counterexample to your earlier claim.

Mercenary is first and above all a trasher and a handsize attack. Pretty hard to use it as a consistent engine piece as you rarely draw a village, Mercenary and two junk cards. ^^

This is true, but there is an exception in Fortress - with Fortress on the board, Mercenary draw engines are available and actually pretty great.

With Fortress a lot of trashers increases significantly in strength.

[Beyond Awesome]

Is it terminal draw?  Does it provide virtual coins?  Then it is a REAL mixture between terminal draw and virtual coins and a counterexample to your earlier claim.

Mercenary is first and above all a trasher and a handsize attack. Pretty hard to use it as a consistent engine piece as you rarely draw a village, Mercenary and two junk cards. ^^

This is true, but there is an exception in Fortress - with Fortress on the board, Mercenary draw engines are available and actually pretty great.

With Fortress a lot of trashers increases significantly in strength.

There are lots of ways to make Mercenary work in an engine. Fortress helps, but so does having +buys, Beggar helps a lot since the coppers are gained to hand. I once even used Explorer for Merc fuel since those go straight to the hand. But, if you have extra buys or gains, you can pretty much use Mercenary in an engine. I've done it a lot of times.

[tristan]

I once even used Explorer for Merc fuel since those go straight to the hand. But, if you have extra buys or gains, you can pretty much use Mercenary in an engine. I've done it a lot of times.

You need two villages to be able to play Explorer, trash the Silver, play Mercenary and still have an action. Seems highly unlikely.

[Beyond Awesome]

I once even used Explorer for Merc fuel since those go straight to the hand. But, if you have extra buys or gains, you can pretty much use Mercenary in an engine. I've done it a lot of times.

You need two villages to be able to play Explorer, trash the Silver, play Mercenary and still have an action. Seems highly unlikely.

Most engines have villages in them.

[Accatitippi]

Well, even in presence of prosperous gains, I have trouble imagining an engine using Mercenaries as its main draw without Fortress.
In the other cases (except Beggar), Mercenary is at best a sifter that trashes instead of discarding. (it's still worth using, since it attacks and provides money). I of course am not arguing how viable as an engine component it is, it's awesome and ofte playable also in the late game. Only, it's not really terminal draw.

[eHalcyon]

Well, even in presence of prosperous gains, I have trouble imagining an engine using Mercenaries as its main draw without Fortress.
In the other cases (except Beggar), Mercenary is at best a sifter that trashes instead of discarding. (it's still worth using, since it attacks and provides money). I of course am not arguing how viable as an engine component it is, it's awesome and ofte playable also in the late game. Only, it's not really terminal draw.

I'm not arguing viability, but it is literally terminal draw.

[Accatitippi]

Well, even in presence of prosperous gains, I have trouble imagining an engine using Mercenaries as its main draw without Fortress.
In the other cases (except Beggar), Mercenary is at best a sifter that trashes instead of discarding. (it's still worth using, since it attacks and provides money). I of course am not arguing how viable as an engine component it is, it's awesome and ofte playable also in the late game. Only, it's not really terminal draw.

I'm not arguing viability, but it is literally terminal draw.

Just like Warehouse is non-terminal draw.

[Roadrunner7671]

Wait, that can't be it! There are more cards, right?

[eHalcyon]

Well, even in presence of prosperous gains, I have trouble imagining an engine using Mercenaries as its main draw without Fortress.
In the other cases (except Beggar), Mercenary is at best a sifter that trashes instead of discarding. (it's still worth using, since it attacks and provides money). I of course am not arguing how viable as an engine component it is, it's awesome and ofte playable also in the late game. Only, it's not really terminal draw.

I'm not arguing viability, but it is literally terminal draw.

Just like Warehouse is non-terminal draw.

Yes.  That's why I'm not arguing viability.

[tristan]

Only, it's not really terminal draw.

This. Among the 4 things Mercenary does in decreasing order of power comes trashing, handsize attack, virtual coins, card draw. The card draw is least relevant because you often do not have the 4 cards that make it work, i.e. a village, Mercenary itself and two junk cards in your hand when you wanna play Mercenary.

[461.weavile]

Wait, that can't be it! There are more cards, right?

Yeah, there is still another card to be revealed. And if we stay on the Santa's nice list, there's going to be an Event as well.

[Doom_Shark]

Well, I just had a thought. You have all your season cards, but what about a non-season card that does stuff when you have seasons? Like:

Harvest Village-$4
+1 card
+2 actions
You may discard a season card. If you do, +1 card

Or maybe an attack that deals with season cards but is not necessarily a season card itself. like:

Forest Bandits-$3
+$2
Each other player may discard a season card. Each player that does not discards down to three cards in hand

Just some ideas. Granted, Forest bandits is a cheap militia in kingdoms without season cards, but it's just something I came up off the top of my head. Something like that might be interesting to play around with. Also, I would like to add that this could easily be expanded upon and turned into a full 25 card expansion.

[Co0kieL0rd]

Well, I just had a thought. You have all your season cards, but what about a non-season card that does stuff when you have seasons? Like:

Harvest Village-$4
+1 card
+2 actions
You may discard a season card. If you do, +1 card

Or maybe an attack that deals with season cards but is not necessarily a season card itself. like:

Forest Bandits-$3
+$2
Each other player may discard a season card. Each player that does not discards down to three cards in hand

Just some ideas. Granted, Forest bandits is a cheap militia in kingdoms without season cards, but it's just something I came up off the top of my head. Something like that might be interesting to play around with. Also, I would like to add that this could easily be expanded upon and turned into a full 25 card expansion.

This is not a bad idea! We never actually thought about cards that interact with Season cards without being Season cards. However, those two particular card categories are already represented in our set (the last card is going to be, at least partially, a discard attack). Also we're quite happy with Seasons being a small expansion. We still haven't finished testing for each card, yet, and have to decide for some of them which version we want.

Cards that may not be finalized are: Trade Port, Timberland, Restore and the other attack card yet to be revealed.

Sorry for the delayed update schedule in the last two weeks. We're both busy and there has been vivid discussion in this thread so it seemed okay to wait. Anyway, the Season event is coming up this weekend. Hooray!

[Accatitippi]

As a random thought: I think that Restore for 4$ could be a thing, maybe giving it an Autumn nerf. But buffing Summer is probably the way to go.

[Asper]

Please forgive the delayed updates lately. I kind of got sidetracked with tests and stuff...

So, here's the Season-Event: Wayfare. It gives you a pretty awesome boost for one Season, and one Season only. Do you want to use it for Fall, when your deck is exploding either way, and you can use the additional power (possibly)? Or in Spring, where you loose one or two turns because you need to buy it first, but then can skip the "mediocre cards" phase entirely? Or Summer, perhaps, where your engine isn't running that smoothly yet, and you can use those actions? You'll often want to buy Wayfare, but the question is when you do. It's intentional of course it doesn't offer buys - some things people need to care for themselves, life isn't a bowl of cherries.