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[Tables]

Faust obviously has my vote, although I'd like to hear what ghost has to say. I think ADK/faust is probably the team I trust most at the moment (tied of course with ADK/me), but anyone who puts me on as chancellor any time that faust hasn't just been chancellor is blundering anyway.

[gkrieg13]

I'd vote yes on ADK Faust. That would be my preferred team out of the three presidents. Although I'm still feeling fine about Hydrad.

[Hydrad]

Well I prefer myself. but faust sounds good also.

[EgorK]

I'd prefer Hydrad

[ghostofmars]

So essentially there are two scenarios: A) Tables is fascist and B) Tables is liberal. In scenario B, we are not in a really bad shape. We know two fascists, but also know two of the liberals. From my perspective, we could go around the table in that scenario with ghost -> faust -> gkrieg? -> Tables.
Much more dangerous is the scenario A (that I consider more likely). In that scenario, we know only one liberal (EgorK) and one fascist (Tables). faust's and Archetype's alignment are unknown. Because this scenario is more dangerous, I would prefer to try to prepare against it and hopefully also learn something about scenario B along the way.
Btw. here is my interpretation of the game state: Fascist Archetype enforces a fascist law and clears a liberal (EgorK). By appointing EgorK as chancellor and blaming the fascist law on him fascist Tables removes one of the people on which we have hard facts from the circle.

Here are my reads on the remaining players (assuming scenario A).

Hydrad Poor voting record. Approved every government so far. Most importantly, approved Tables/EgorK over ADK/himself. Slight fascist read.

Grujah The only player that can claim a liberal voting record. Towny comments. My best liberal read. Might be Hitler, though.

gkrieg Approved both governments that enacted a fascist law, but his comments seem genuine. Liberal read.

ADK Declined the last government (even if only for tactical reasons). Slight liberal read.

faust I don't like his interaction with the other players and Tables in particular. He seems to sure about the alignment. In the beginning he was very convinced that Tables is fascist. Then he turned around and found him the most liberal. He proceeded to attack gkrieg and then me. It could be that he just staged the fight with Tables in the beginning to coordinate that there votes are on opposite sides. I also didn't like how Tables pushed to investigate faust. First, he said wanted to investigate faust. Then after I had proposed to look for his strongest fascist read, he broadened his selection only to narrow it down on faust again. My strongest fascist read (other than Tables/Archetype).

So my guess for the scum team is Tables/Archetype/faust. I don't have a good read who would be Hitler in this scenario.

For the record: In scenario B, my guess for the scum team would be Archetype/EgorK/ADK. It should be clear that at least one scum would not approve a liberal president.

As a general comment: Imho the liberal players have been far to liberal with their votes. Any player (other than yourself) has a 50% chance to be liberal in the beginning of the game. So you should approximately approve in 50% of the time. The present voting pattern, indicates an approval rate of 60-70% which leads to faster government formation and less voting rounds. Hence, we gain less information which helps the fascists.

Finally, I will vote nein! for ADK's government. If Tables is liberal, it is likely that he is fascist. And while I can see putting faust as chancellor to get some information about Tables and faust, I prefer my shadow cabinet ghost/Grujah.

[Tables]

Just two things I'd like to point out, ghost.

1)

Much more dangerous is the scenario A (that I consider more likely). In that scenario, we know only one liberal (EgorK) and one fascist (Tables).

If I'm fascist, that doesn't clear EgorK. It's possible that Arch/EgorK/Tables would be the fascist team. I know this is kinda splitting hairs a little but even if you suspect me, don't assume that exonerates EgorK.

So my guess for the scum team is Tables/Archetype/faust. I don't have a good read who would be Hitler in this scenario.

For the record: In scenario B, my guess for the scum team would be Archetype/EgorK/ADK. It should be clear that at least one scum would not approve a liberal president.

So, you suspect Archetype regardless of what you feel about my loyalty, is what I'm surmising here? That's good if that's the case. As for your last point... I wouldn't be entirely certain about that. Usually, yes, Scum want fascists in government, but they also want to not get outed as fascists too quickly, right? And because they have no external communication it's not like they are directly able to co-ordinate, so there would likely be times fascists would approve a government with scum on it, just to blend in.

[EgorK]

I do not see liberal Tables/scum Tables in team with me ever posting first past of last post

[faust]

Btw. here is my interpretation of the game state: Fascist Archetype enforces a fascist law and clears a liberal (EgorK). By appointing EgorK as chancellor and blaming the fascist law on him fascist Tables removes one of the people on which we have hard facts from the circle.

It should be noted that the above scenario only really works out for fascist!Tables if he draws FFL or FFF. Which I guess is most likely, so fine.

faust I don't like his interaction with the other players and Tables in particular. He seems to sure about the alignment. In the beginning he was very convinced that Tables is fascist. Then he turned around and found him the most liberal. He proceeded to attack gkrieg and then me. It could be that he just staged the fight with Tables in the beginning to coordinate that there votes are on opposite sides. I also didn't like how Tables pushed to investigate faust. First, he said wanted to investigate faust. Then after I had proposed to look for his strongest fascist read, he broadened his selection only to narrow it down on faust again. My strongest fascist read (other than Tables/Archetype).

So everyone gets some quick comment, but you feel compelled to write a whole paragraph about me? When, for example, your read on gkrieg could be most enlightening? That seems strange.

And uh you don't bring up any new points. All this I have already discussed with Tables, and it's my playstyle. I don't know how trying to figure out people's alignments and being open-minded about it and putting some pressure on people who might be fascist is a bad thing. What does a fascist gain from that? Then you get in some sort of conspiracy theory scenario where I am an evil mastermind and Tables is a puppet dancing to my strings.

The last thing I get. I don't like the investigation myself. But would fascist!Tables investigate fascist!me and claim liberal? Does that not force the two of us to always act liberal or else two fascists are outed at once? It seems that fascist!Tables does not want to lie about his result here.

So my guess for the scum team is Tables/Archetype/faust. I don't have a good read who would be Hitler in this scenario.

So this is based on the scenario described above... a scenario that come to think of it is possible, but there is no real reason to believe in it over other scenarios, at least none given. I don't know that two fascists would play themselves into a scenario where it is confirmed that one of them is a fascist.

For the record: In scenario B, my guess for the scum team would be Archetype/EgorK/ADK. It should be clear that at least one scum would not approve a liberal president.

This is a fallacy. The votes of the fascists are independent from one another. If one of them can vote for a liberal government, then all of them can.

Finally, I will vote nein! for ADK's government. If Tables is liberal, it is likely that he is fascist. And while I can see putting faust as chancellor to get some information about Tables and faust, I prefer my shadow cabinet ghost/Grujah.

And yet again you prepare yourself for opportunistic voting. There are no reasons given for why ADK would be a fascist except some bogus probability argument.

[faust]

I do not see liberal Tables/scum Tables in team with me ever posting first past of last post

Well, I do not see liberal!you posting this, because liberal!you would know that Tables is fascist.

[EgorK]

I do not see liberal Tables/scum Tables in team with me ever posting first past of last post

Well, I do not see liberal!you posting this, because liberal!you would know that Tables is fascist.

That's my point. He is fascist and I am liberal.

[EgorK]

I mean, if he is liberal, there is no point in posting what he did. If he is fascist and so am I, there is not point in that post as well. I just pointed that out

[faust]

I mean, if he is liberal, there is no point in posting what he did. If he is fascist and so am I, there is not point in that post as well. I just pointed that out

This is wrong.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Right now I'm thinking Arch/Egor/ghost are fascists, with egor as the most likely Hitler. I'm still uncertain about the fourth.

[EgorK]

I mean, if he is liberal, there is no point in posting what he did. If he is fascist and so am I, there is not point in that post as well. I just pointed that out

This is wrong.

Which part?

[Kirian]

I see a lot of people posting three-member Fascist teams.  This is a reminder that there are four fascists, one of whom is Hitler.

[gkrieg13]

I'd prefer Hydrad

Why?

[gkrieg13]

Right now I'm thinking Arch/Egor/ghost are fascists, with egor as the most likely Hitler. I'm still uncertain about the fourth.

You really think EgorK is more likely to be fascist than Tables?  I definitely agree that ghost is conf!fascist.  His reads list seems very fabricated.  He says that I have a fine voting record and that Hydrad has a poor voting record, when we have voted the same every time.

Faust you are partially wrong about ghost's analysis of the feel of your play.  I agree that a liberal has reason to put pressure on people, but a fascist also has reason to put pressure on people.  The more pressure that is put on someone, the more they need to post, which gives more evidence against them even if they are liberal. When pressuring people you tend to give absolutes about people's alignments before having any actual data, then sticking to those reads when you feel like they react badly to pressure.  I think it is more of a meta thing for you.

After reading all of these posts, it seems more likely to me that EgorK is fascist, which makes Arch fascist.  His reactions to everything have seemed constructed, and he seems to be forgetting he and Tables can't both be liberal.

[EgorK]

I'd prefer Hydrad

Why?

Because I know tables is fascist, and he cleared faust

[EgorK]

His reactions to everything have seemed constructed, and he seems to be forgetting he and Tables can't both be liberal.

If this is about me can you enlighten me where I had forgotten that?

[gkrieg13]

I do not see liberal Tables/scum Tables in team with me ever posting first past of last post

I guess it was this quote.  I may be confused by what it means then.

[EgorK]

In team with me only applies to scum Tables

[EgorK]

I mean, what's the point to post that as liberal? Town will never be sure that tables is fascist in that case, and so it is irrelevant

What's the point to post that if Tables is fascist and so am I? Also makes no sense

Only plausible case is Tables is fascist, I am liberal, and he tries to safeguard against being outed somehow later in he game/cast some shadow in my direction

[ghostofmars]

If I'm fascist, that doesn't clear EgorK. It's possible that Arch/EgorK/Tables would be the fascist team.

I see that this is technically possible, but I don't see you actually playing that way if both you and EgorK are fascist.

So, you suspect Archetype regardless of what you feel about my loyalty, is what I'm surmising here? That's good if that's the case. As for your last point... I wouldn't be entirely certain about that. Usually, yes, Scum want fascists in government, but they also want to not get outed as fascists too quickly, right? And because they have no external communication it's not like they are directly able to co-ordinate, so there would likely be times fascists would approve a government with scum on it, just to blend in.

I agree that scum players have a limited ability to communicate. However for the scenario ADK and you liberal, all 4(!) fascist would have to vote for a liberal president.

[ghostofmars]

So everyone gets some quick comment, but you feel compelled to write a whole paragraph about me? When, for example, your read on gkrieg could be most enlightening? That seems strange.

Well you are the player about which I have more information than the other 4 players. For the other ones I just have voting patterns, for you there is Tables investigation.

The last thing I get. I don't like the investigation myself. But would fascist!Tables investigate fascist!me and claim liberal? Does that not force the two of us to always act liberal or else two fascists are outed at once? It seems that fascist!Tables does not want to lie about his result here.

I don't agree. If one more fascist law gets passed, we are in the situation where fascist could win by electing Hitler. Hence, if you as a chancellor or president enact a fascist law, we might guess that you/Tables are fascist, but we only know a single liberal (EgorK). In this scenario even by chance it is very likely that we elect Hitler.

I don't know that two fascists would play themselves into a scenario where it is confirmed that one of them is a fascist.

Yet, you assume that Archetype and EgorK outed themselves

This is a fallacy. The votes of the fascists are independent from one another. If one of them can vote for a liberal government, then all of them can.

Votes of fascist are not totally independent. E.g. Archetype stated in the thread that he would vote for the government, so a fascist!ADK could react to this by voting it down. Furthermore as in the reply to Tables. Liberal!ADK requires all 4 fascists to approve a liberal president, something that I cannot see.

There are no reasons given for why ADK would be a fascist except some bogus probability argument.

Imho, hard data (voting + enacted laws) beats soft data (reads).

[ghostofmars]

I see a lot of people posting three-member Fascist teams.  This is a reminder that there are four fascists, one of whom is Hitler.

Just to clarify, I'm aware that the scum team is 4 people, but Hitler plays very differently then the other scum players. So the scum team I proposed are the fascist but non-Hitler players.