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[Tables]

Sigh.

I drew FFL, and passed of course FL. Egor playing F surprises me a LOT, since that outs both Egor and Arch as scum to me. Of course, it also makes me look super scummy, since I guess people will be less inclined to believe the person saying two other people are scum than the two saying one other is scum. So... ugh. I need to fully think what this means through.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's not the unexpected response.

If (big if) Tables is telling the truth, then I think it means that it's fairly likely that Egor is Hitler, and Arch investigating him was a way of tipping him off as to who one of his allies is.

[faust]

Well, this is better than Tables confirming FFF I think. At least now we know that either Tables or (Egor, Arch) are scum.

Which leads us to the question, who should be investigated? Obviously having Tables investigate Arch or Egor makes no sense. We should look at upcoming candidates. That is ADK, ghost, Hydrad.

Would be cool if Tables can out another fascist, assuming he's liberal. My investigation preferences are Hydrad>ADK>ghost I think.

[faust]

That's not the unexpected response.

If (big if) Tables is telling the truth, then I think it means that it's fairly likely that Egor is Hitler, and Arch investigating him was a way of tipping him off as to who one of his allies is.

That seems uh strange. It's not like Arch chose the investigation target on his own, he followed the popular opinion (which still can be influenced by the fascists, but it's not as simple as you make it out to be).

[Grujah]

But would Hitler expose himself to such big risks? I dont think so.

[Tables]

Okay so some possible scenarios from my perspective.

1) Arch is Hitler, randomly investigates a fascist. He doesn't want to out a fascist for no reason, so he claims liberal, of course. Egor's play in this situation seems super risky though, he doesn't want Hitler involved in a counterclaim, surely? So I think this one is unlikely.

2) Arch is a fascist, investigates Hitler, declares him Liberal. This makes sense as a fascist play, especially since people were suggesting the investigation to begin with. But then Egor playing a fascist here seems crazy. This seems unlikely as well.

3) Both are regular fascist. This sounds most plausible to me. Egor makes a bold play, with the intent of making one of the more active players look scummy and hopefully making him and his buddy look better. It's risky, but has a good chance to pay off.

So... okay. I don't think Arch or Egor is Hitler, probably. Unless we're going one level deeper of crazy play, at least. That means there's still one more regular fascist out there, and Hitler.

Who voted this proposal up and who said no, that's what I think I'll look at next. Although it'll be over an hour before I can post again since I'm heading out very soon (this is basically a self reminder note, in case you're wondering).

PPE 3 - I haven't thought about investigation target yet. I'll think about that later. I agree this is potentially a good result though, getting scum in counterclaims is powerful, although it's a bit frustrating to be involved in it myself (I've always preferred deducing information rather than arguing my own corner).

PPE 1 - I want to get off Mr. PPE's wild ride

[Grujah]

Everybody voted yes except two people that were upcoming presidents, so, not much to go on there.

[Tables]

Yes, indeed. And sadly that doesn't especially help anyone - everyone knows there was a fascist on this mission at this point, so the fact that (likely) most or all of the fascists voted it up doesn't tell us anything new.

Request: Can votes for each mission (and end results) be placed in one of the first two posts? It makes it a lot easier to track information than trawling through the pages.

Anyway turns out I lied about going out, got the day wrong (inb4lynchallliars), but ehh nothing too interesting votes wise as I just said. What else was there? Investigation target. Right. I have a few thoughts for that at least.

1) Faust. I would really like to know his loyalty, since he's one of the most active players. He won't be President in the upcoming round though.

2) ADK. My read on him is still moderately good, so it'd be good to confirm that. Although... maybe I should be investigating to try and hit Hitler given I know two likely normal fascists? I dunno, would that mean investigating players who I thought were playing liberally anyway I guess? Either way ADK is reasonably active, has next proposal and seems reasonably good.

3) Hydrad. Ehh, he's in the next set of proposals as faust said, but other than that I don't have much to say about him. He hasn't really stood out in either direction to me yet. But being a potential president soon makes him worthwhile at least a little.

I can't think of anyone right off the top of my head else that I especially want to investigate. Ghost seems like a bad choice, given I know Arch's loyalty, and nobody else really jumps out at me.

[Grujah]

Ghost seems like a bad choice, given I know Arch's loyalty, and nobody else really jumps out at me.

Care to explain? Was he heavy anti-Arch or what?
Also that doesn't make him not hitler.

What about me or gkrieg?

[faust]

Ghost seems like a bad choice, given I know Arch's loyalty, and nobody else really jumps out at me.

Care to explain? Was he heavy anti-Arch or what?
Also that doesn't make him not hitler.

What about me or gkrieg?

I think the reasoning is that arch picked him as Chancellor, and fascist!Arch would be more likely to choose a liberal Chancellor.

[gkrieg13]

So at this point we have to choose between Tables being fascist or EgorK and Arch being fascist, or Tables and Arch being fascist?  I don't see the second one being true, which means that Tables is fascist.  I just don't see Arch investigating EgorK and calling him liberal if they were both fascist.  Arch could be fascist, investigated a liberal, and Tables gave Egor FF to frame him.  I just don't see EgorK  discarding the Liberal policy when he was just investigated and found liberal.

[Kirian]

Current Game State

Round 3

Turn Order, current President or candidate in bold, current Chancellor or candidate in italic:

gkrieg13
Archetype
Tables
A Drowned Kernel
ghostofmars
Hydrad
Grujah
faust
EgorK

Liberal Policies enacted: 0
Fascist Policies enacted: 2
Next Executive Power: Investigation (#2)
Recent Failed Governments: 0

Deck: 11 cards
Discard: 4 cards

Deck and discard contain (total): 9 Fascist, 6 Liberal

Fate of the World:  Unknown

Request: Can votes for each mission (and end results) be placed in one of the first two posts? It makes it a lot easier to track information than trawling through the pages.

I think I can do that.  I think it's better to have the game state interspersed though (as in our TTA games), but I'm open to suggestions.

[EgorK]

Well, I know Tables is fascist so I'd prefer him targeting on his own so he would not hide behind town opinion and will give at least WIFOM data with his target and result

[Hydrad]

ohhho fun again!

ok so lets see. I think I pretty much agree with gkriegs analysis. Lets see...

Basically I agree that even if egork or arch is facist I doubt either of them are hitler. That just spells danger.

Tables could be Hitler?

but ok Tables and Egork are opposite alignments.

So that Leaves us with Tables/Arch. Just Tables. or Arch/Egork. I think those are the only plausible options for facists here?

But I guess one nice thing about this game Is we don't have to find the exact one or anything. We can just not let all 3 of them in any governments and its easy?

The biggest issue for leaving all 3 of them out is if its just tables being Fascist because then we have even worse odds for teams being fascist... Hmm maybe this isn't as easy as I thought.

[Tables]

Ghost seems like a bad choice, given I know Arch's loyalty, and nobody else really jumps out at me.

Care to explain? Was he heavy anti-Arch or what?
Also that doesn't make him not hitler.

What about me or gkrieg?

He was Arch's chancellor. So it's very likely he's liberal.

You and Gkrieg... I'm okay with either of those. I don't especially have any read on you yet, and have a slight liberal read on Gkrieg, but would really appreciate him not using faulty logic in almost every post. Like...

I don't see the second one being true, which means that Tables is fascist.  ...  I just don't see EgorK  discarding the Liberal policy when he was just investigated and found liberal.

I didn't think either of those things were likely either, but it happened. Or, well, look at the other side of this. If I were fascist, I could just as easily have claimed to draw FFF, hence passing FF. Or heck, I could have passed FL anyway to gain myself some trust. Both of those situations would have drawn a lot less suspicion onto myself, right? Instead I've ended up in a position which makes me looks basically as suspicious as possible. If I were fascist, would I really make such a dangerous play? I think you have to agree that's just as unlikely as the situations you've listed above.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Ghost seems like a bad choice, given I know Arch's loyalty, and nobody else really jumps out at me.

Care to explain? Was he heavy anti-Arch or what?
Also that doesn't make him not hitler.

What about me or gkrieg?

He was Arch's chancellor. So it's very likely he's liberal.

You and Gkrieg... I'm okay with either of those. I don't especially have any read on you yet, and have a slight liberal read on Gkrieg, but would really appreciate him not using faulty logic in almost every post. Like...

I don't see the second one being true, which means that Tables is fascist.  ...  I just don't see EgorK  discarding the Liberal policy when he was just investigated and found liberal.

I didn't think either of those things were likely either, but it happened. Or, well, look at the other side of this. If I were fascist, I could just as easily have claimed to draw FFF, hence passing FF. Or heck, I could have passed FL anyway to gain myself some trust. Both of those situations would have drawn a lot less suspicion onto myself, right? Instead I've ended up in a position which makes me looks basically as suspicious as possible. If I were fascist, would I really make such a dangerous play? I think you have to agree that's just as unlikely as the situations you've listed above.

I think that even if you're fascist you would never claimed to have drawn FFF. If both you and Egor are fascists, the only sensible move for you is to throw your partner under the bus. I'm not saying that's what happened, but your claim is not inconsistent with the idea that you're fascist.

[Archetype]

So at least we've got one Fascist eliminated. I find it funny how so many of you seem to believe Tables over me/EgorK...that would mean we're both scum and is much more unlikely than just Faust being scum. Like someone else pointed out, I didn't direct who I would investigate - I let the rest of the Town decide.

I'm most suspicious of Faust here from this whole deal. When I initially claimed FFF, he knew how unlikely it was and immediately jumped on me. When Tables claims, he seems to accept it. Also, rather than reacting at all to the result of the F, all Faust says is:

Well, we have to wait for Tables before we draw any sort of conclusion.

...which reads to me like he was going to see how Tables would lie in this situation.

[ghostofmars]

So my fascist read is
Tables > Archetype > EgorK

Because it is now likely that Tables is fascist, it is a bit more likely that Archetype is liberal. So the worst case scenario for us is Archetype and EgorK liberal. Then by removing all three of them, we reduce the liberal-fascist ratio to 3-3. On the other hand, if Tables is liberal the situation is not so dire.

I like the idea of investigating off-wagon. If Tables is liberal, it is very likely that at least one fascist didn't vote for him. So either me or ADK should be fascist.

[Tables]

Ghost seems like a bad choice, given I know Arch's loyalty, and nobody else really jumps out at me.

Care to explain? Was he heavy anti-Arch or what?
Also that doesn't make him not hitler.

What about me or gkrieg?

He was Arch's chancellor. So it's very likely he's liberal.

You and Gkrieg... I'm okay with either of those. I don't especially have any read on you yet, and have a slight liberal read on Gkrieg, but would really appreciate him not using faulty logic in almost every post. Like...

I don't see the second one being true, which means that Tables is fascist.  ...  I just don't see EgorK  discarding the Liberal policy when he was just investigated and found liberal.

I didn't think either of those things were likely either, but it happened. Or, well, look at the other side of this. If I were fascist, I could just as easily have claimed to draw FFF, hence passing FF. Or heck, I could have passed FL anyway to gain myself some trust. Both of those situations would have drawn a lot less suspicion onto myself, right? Instead I've ended up in a position which makes me looks basically as suspicious as possible. If I were fascist, would I really make such a dangerous play? I think you have to agree that's just as unlikely as the situations you've listed above.

I think that even if you're fascist you would never claimed to have drawn FFF. If both you and Egor are fascists, the only sensible move for you is to throw your partner under the bus. I'm not saying that's what happened, but your claim is not inconsistent with the idea that you're fascist.

No, I'm not saying it's inconsistent, just, why would I go with the most outlandish option when there were much better claims possible? Also, if both Egor and I were fascist, I think playing Liberal if possible would have been the best option here. Gets two people some trust points. Still, it's kinda a WIFOM situation I guess. I'm saying this move would be brazen but you could say that's exactly why I'd do it, or whatever. So eh. Either way, overall, I think it's not too awful of a situation right now, as others have pointed out. I don't like becoming an object of suspicion, but it does open up an awful lot of information to everyone else, and that's ultimately a good thing for team liberal.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm okay with you investigating whoever you want. I also think it's better to leave the matter in your hands and give you some accountability on your choice.

[faust]

So at least we've got one Fascist eliminated. I find it funny how so many of you seem to believe Tables over me/EgorK...that would mean we're both scum and is much more unlikely than just Faust being scum. Like someone else pointed out, I didn't direct who I would investigate - I let the rest of the Town decide.

I'm most suspicious of Faust here from this whole deal. When I initially claimed FFF, he knew how unlikely it was and immediately jumped on me. When Tables claims, he seems to accept it. Also, rather than reacting at all to the result of the F, all Faust says is:

Well, we have to wait for Tables before we draw any sort of conclusion.

...which reads to me like he was going to see how Tables would lie in this situation.

Right, you're most suspicious of me, rather than say the guy you should now know is a fascist...

But that aside, your argument is pretty ridiculous. "It is less likely that me/Egor are both scum than it is that Tables is scum"... seriously? That may have been true when the game started and we didn't know anything, but right now this kind of statement is bullshit.

I don't know where you read that I "accept" anything. But yes, Tables seems more liberal than you. For starters, the way you got elected is more suspicious. Secondly, Tables reads genuine, and you don't.

And that last point, nonsense. I did not say anything because I did not want to give Tables any hint as to which claim is better for him. If I was a fascist and Tables my partner, I would have tried to give him that information.

[Grujah]

Ghost seems like a bad choice, given I know Arch's loyalty, and nobody else really jumps out at me.

Care to explain? Was he heavy anti-Arch or what?
Also that doesn't make him not hitler.

What about me or gkrieg?

He was Arch's chancellor. So it's very likely he's liberal.

You and Gkrieg... I'm okay with either of those. I don't especially have any read on you yet, and have a slight liberal read on Gkrieg, but would really appreciate him not using faulty logic in almost every post. Like...

I don't see the second one being true, which means that Tables is fascist.  ...  I just don't see EgorK  discarding the Liberal policy when he was just investigated and found liberal.

I didn't think either of those things were likely either, but it happened. Or, well, look at the other side of this. If I were fascist, I could just as easily have claimed to draw FFF, hence passing FF. Or heck, I could have passed FL anyway to gain myself some trust. Both of those situations would have drawn a lot less suspicion onto myself, right? Instead I've ended up in a position which makes me looks basically as suspicious as possible. If I were fascist, would I really make such a dangerous play? I think you have to agree that's just as unlikely as the situations you've listed above.

I think that even if you're fascist you would never claimed to have drawn FFF. If both you and Egor are fascists, the only sensible move for you is to throw your partner under the bus. I'm not saying that's what happened, but your claim is not inconsistent with the idea that you're fascist.

You claim FFF, we are not certain as we aren't certain with Arch/ghost either. It would be a good move.

I am with faust that Arch/Egor isn't much more unlikely than Tables. Both "theories" has some holes, but none is way more outlandish that other.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry guys I'll get more into this tomorrow

[Tables]

I haven't seen much objection to it, so am going to investigate Faust soon unless someone strongly objects.

[ghostofmars]

I haven't seen much objection to it, so am going to investigate Faust soon unless someone strongly objects.

If you are liberal, you should try to catch one of the remaining fascists. So if you want to investigate him, I would like to know what makes you think he is fascist.