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[AdamH]

I showed my wife my Summons, I got a pack of them to hand out at my next tournament and she said she thought the butterfly was pretty (fun fact: she actually doesn't like butterflies IRL, they're too similar to moths and moths have no concept of personal space, so they're dad to her). So I was like "yeah you like the picture of the lady summoning the butterfly? OR WAIT, MAYBE THE BUTTERFLY IS SUMMONING THE LADY!!!!!1111"

[Roadrunner7671]

This story was amazing. 10/10 I would read it again. I laughed, I cried, it was an emotional roller coaster the whole way through.

[Kirian]

*whom

Edit:  Seriously, someone had to do the grammar nazi thing.

[jsh357]

It was all I could think of reading the title...

[Archetype]

Yeah, my father has a hard time staying out of my personal space too.

[eHalcyon]

*whom

Edit:  Seriously, someone had to do the grammar nazi thing.

"Whom's summoning who?"

[Donald X.]

*whom

Edit:  Seriously, someone had to do the grammar nazi thing.

Did it hurt? When you fell out of your Victorian era steampunk time machine? And now that you know about the Nazis, will you be killing Hitler or what? Man what happens then? Will they be called grammar Jews?

[Davio]

Killing Hitler is a horrible idea.

WWII was bad, but it would have been worse if it got started by an atomic bomb instead of ended by one.

[teamrocketgrunt]

Eight posts. It took eight posts to get from a Dominion Card that could or could not show a butterfly summoning a woman and/or could or could not show a woman summoning a butterfly to how time-travel with the goal of killing Hitler is a horrible idea. They say 'it's funny how the human brain works'. I like how multiple human brains work together way better .

[Davio]

Eight posts. It took eight posts to get from a Dominion Card that could or could not show a butterfly summoning a woman and/or could or could not show a woman summoning a butterfly to how time-travel with the goal of killing Hitler is a horrible idea. They say 'it's funny how the human brain works'. I like how multiple human brains work together way better .

Is it still Godwin's law if none of the users are actually compared to Hitler/nazis?

[Haddock]

Eight posts. It took eight posts to get from a Dominion Card that could or could not show a butterfly summoning a woman and/or could or could not show a woman summoning a butterfly to how time-travel with the goal of killing Hitler is a horrible idea. They say 'it's funny how the human brain works'. I like how multiple human brains work together way better .

Well, you know what they say, a butterfly flaps its wings...

[Witherweaver]

*Who's summoning whom?

Edit: Oh, man, I didn't even read the thread first

[-Stef-]

*Who's summoning whom?

Edit: Oh, man, I didn't even read the thread first

Adam outsmarted you all, he was summoning Doctor.

[werothegreat]

*whom

Edit:  Seriously, someone had to do the grammar nazi thing.

"Whom's summoning who?"

I beg your pardon!  It's "Whom are whom were summoning whom what were for when", you uncultured Scout!

[Awaclus]

I don't know, but these guys are Summoning and they're pretty good.

[AJD]

"Am I a butterfly, dreaming that I am summoning a sorcerer? Or am I a sorcerer, dreaming that I am summoning a butterfly?"

[Kirian]

Killing Hitler is a horrible idea.

WWII was bad, but it would have been worse if it got started by an atomic bomb instead of ended by one.

http://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/

Everyone go read it or I'll summon your mom.

[markusin]

Eight posts. It took eight posts to get from a Dominion Card that could or could not show a butterfly summoning a woman and/or could or could not show a woman summoning a butterfly to how time-travel with the goal of killing Hitler is a horrible idea. They say 'it's funny how the human brain works'. I like how multiple human brains work together way better .

It's Godwin's Law. Check it out:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[Witherweaver]

Is this the premise of The Man in the High Castle?

[pacovf]

Killing Hitler is a horrible idea.

WWII was bad, but it would have been worse if it got started by an atomic bomb instead of ended by one.

http://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/

Everyone go read it or I'll summon your mom.

It's silly though. Why is WW2 required to get all those technological advances? Something like electronics would have happened anyway, even if later.

[Kirian]

Killing Hitler is a horrible idea.

WWII was bad, but it would have been worse if it got started by an atomic bomb instead of ended by one.

http://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/

Everyone go read it or I'll summon your mom.

It's silly though. Why is WW2 required to get all those technological advances? Something like electronics would have happened anyway, even if later.

As the author points out, of course it's silly; it's not a story about time travel, it's a story about Internet forum posters.

[DoomYoshi]

She should summon a sleeve... too much arm-ankle showing.

[AdamH]

She should summon a sleeve.

All of my cards are sleeved, including my Summon. Or are you saying I should sleeve all of the Summons that I will be handing out? Most of the people that I know will be in attendance use different sleeves than I do, or no sleeves at all.

[enfynet]

The lady is summoning the butterfly but a lazy artist erased some of the picture.

[Flip5ide]

Whom*

[Witherweaver]

Whom*

[Throwaway_bicycling]

So I was like "yeah you like the picture of the lady summoning the butterfly? OR WAIT, MAYBE THE BUTTERFLY IS SUMMONING THE LADY

The lady is being summoned by an unseen Mage who is standing stage right (you can see the trail of magic coming into the frame from there) who was cropped out of the picture by a bug introduced into the card by Making Fun. Here, the bug appears to be a colorful moth.

[Roadrunner7671]

Here, the bug appears to be a colorful moth.

I'm going to be that guy. One of the differences between a moth and a butterfly are their antenna. Butterflies have slender, straight antenna. Moths have antenna that have knobs on them, or are feathery. If you zoom in on the photo, you can tell that it is a butterfly as opposed to a coloful moth. Speaking of colorful moths, another difference between a moth and a butterfly are the colors. Butterflies come in a range of colors, from yellow to green to black. Moths are usually white, light gray or brown. Calling a moth 'colorful' means you are colorblind or you think bland colors are considered 'colorful.'

Okay, I'm done nerding out.

[eHalcyon]

Moths are usually white, light gray or brown. Calling a moth 'colorful' means you are colorblind or you think bland colors are considered 'colorful.'

Or it means you're looking at a moth species that isn't a bland colour.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/20-moth-species-more-beautiful-than-butterflies

[Roadrunner7671]

I feel inclined to reply to this. The Japanese Silk Moth looked sort of similar to the butterfly on Summon, but they are different.

And you are correct, but I was making a general statement.

[Witherweaver]

Saddle up, it's a moth-off.

[Marcory]

But which of those is the Grand Moth Tarkin?

[AdamH]

You know I actually had the thought of "does this belong in General Discussion?" before posting this here, and then I thought "nah, it's about Dominion! Of course it belongs in Dominion General Discussion.

What I've learned is that I should never underestimate F.DS's ability to take a thread about Dominion and turn it into a thread about as many different non-Dominion things as possible. It's a truly amazing skill we have here.

I asked my wife if this thread is everything she wanted, she said yes but I think she was just saying that to get me to shut up. She saw the thread before all of the pictures of moths were posted, though, so I don't think she'll want to see the updates.

Oh yeah, and this:

they're dad to her

Yeah, my father has a hard time staying out of my personal space too.

It took me a while to realize why this post had so many upvotes then I realized I typed "dad" instead of "dead." This was actually done on purpose, I'm not sure anyone reading this thread knows the reference I was making. Anyone?

[eHalcyon]

You know I actually had the thought of "does this belong in General Discussion?" before posting this here, and then I thought "nah, it's about Dominion! Of course it belongs in Dominion General Discussion.

What I've learned is that I should never underestimate F.DS's ability to take a thread about Dominion and turn it into a thread about as many different non-Dominion things as possible. It's a truly amazing skill we have here.

I asked my wife if this thread is everything she wanted, she said yes but I think she was just saying that to get me to shut up. She saw the thread before all of the pictures of moths were posted, though, so I don't think she'll want to see the updates.

To be fair, your OP doesn't get discussion off to a good start.  If you wanted a serious discussion, it's a bit hypocritical to devote a good chunk of your commentary to moths and their concept of personal space, then end it with a bunch of exclamation marks and 1s.

By the way, I forgot to include the best colourful moth:

[2.71828.....]

I don't think Adam was trying for all that serious of a discussion. I mean, there are no [serious] tags.

[Witherweaver]

You know I actually had the thought of "does this belong in General Discussion?" before posting this here, and then I thought "nah, it's about Dominion! Of course it belongs in Dominion General Discussion.

What I've learned is that I should never underestimate F.DS's ability to take a thread about Dominion and turn it into a thread about as many different non-Dominion things as possible. It's a truly amazing skill we have here.

I asked my wife if this thread is everything she wanted, she said yes but I think she was just saying that to get me to shut up. She saw the thread before all of the pictures of moths were posted, though, so I don't think she'll want to see the updates.

Oh yeah, and this:

they're dad to her

Yeah, my father has a hard time staying out of my personal space too.

It took me a while to realize why this post had so many upvotes then I realized I typed "dad" instead of "dead." This was actually done on purpose, I'm not sure anyone reading this thread knows the reference I was making. Anyone?

There you have it, amother thread derailed.

[enfynet]

I don't know the specific reference, but we make "dad" jokes at work all the time.

The first thing I can come up with is Austin Powers Fahzha.

I also cannot tell a linear story without getting derailed.

[Flip5ide]

You know I actually had the thought of "does this belong in General Discussion?" before posting this here, and then I thought "nah, it's about Dominion! Of course it belongs in Dominion General Discussion.

What I've learned is that I should never underestimate F.DS's ability to take a thread about Dominion and turn it into a thread about as many different non-Dominion things as possible. It's a truly amazing skill we have here.

I asked my wife if this thread is everything she wanted, she said yes but I think she was just saying that to get me to shut up. She saw the thread before all of the pictures of moths were posted, though, so I don't think she'll want to see the updates.

Oh yeah, and this:

they're dad to her

Yeah, my father has a hard time staying out of my personal space too.

It took me a while to realize why this post had so many upvotes then I realized I typed "dad" instead of "dead." This was actually done on purpose, I'm not sure anyone reading this thread knows the reference I was making. Anyone?

There you have it, amother thread derailed.

amother

[Davio]

Killing Hitler is a horrible idea.

WWII was bad, but it would have been worse if it got started by an atomic bomb instead of ended by one.

http://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/

Everyone go read it or I'll summon your mom.

It's silly though. Why is WW2 required to get all those technological advances? Something like electronics would have happened anyway, even if later.

As the author points out, of course it's silly; it's not a story about time travel, it's a story about Internet forum posters.

I think the main problem with going back and trying to "fix" things by creating a new timeline is that you're swapping something that you know for certain for something uncertain. The new timeline could go either way, it could be paradise or it could be hell. And even then, who is capable of judging the outcome? The new timeline may be paradise for one half and hell for the other.

[Donald X.]

I think the main problem with going back and trying to "fix" things by creating a new timeline is that you're swapping something that you know for certain for something uncertain. The new timeline could go either way, it could be paradise or it could be hell. And even then, who is capable of judging the outcome? The new timeline may be paradise for one half and hell for the other.

No. The main problem is sperm. I'm not ashamed to say it, we're all grown-ups here, except Roadrunner7671 and well he knew what he was in for when he registered. The problem is sperm. Everyone is replaced.

You bump a guy in 1800. He was going home to get his wife pregnant. You bumped him; now a different sperm makes it to the (same) egg, and a different kid is conceived. Sperm is a way to magnify small changes into big ones. Like looking at a decaying atom to decide whether or not to kill a cat.

You show up in 1800 behind a tree, sit on a bench for 5 minutes, then go back behind the tree and vanish. Tiny changes propagate, spread out. They're tiny, but they're enough that different babies are conceived. The next generation is all siblings of who the people were going to be. And they make the world different in whatever huge ways. Kill Hitler on the last day of June, 1934, and everyone conceived from July on is someone different.

Stick to going back in time to kill people within your own lifespan, that's my advice.

[teamrocketgrunt]

You bump a guy in 1800. He was going home to get his wife pregnant. You bumped him; now a different sperm makes it to the (same) egg, and a different kid is conceived.

Time-traveller rule #1: If you bump someone in 1800, he'd better not be related to you.

Well, actually, just the fact that you were able to time-travel proves he could not have been related to you OR (and that is way more likely) you were only conceived because you bumped your own great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and thusly triggered the exact genetic chain that allowed you to time-travel in the first place.

Time-traveller rule #1 (revised): Bump whoever you like. It's only time travel.

[Davio]

I think the main problem with going back and trying to "fix" things by creating a new timeline is that you're swapping something that you know for certain for something uncertain. The new timeline could go either way, it could be paradise or it could be hell. And even then, who is capable of judging the outcome? The new timeline may be paradise for one half and hell for the other.

No. The main problem is sperm. I'm not ashamed to say it, we're all grown-ups here, except Roadrunner7671 and well he knew what he was in for when he registered. The problem is sperm. Everyone is replaced.

You bump a guy in 1800. He was going home to get his wife pregnant. You bumped him; now a different sperm makes it to the (same) egg, and a different kid is conceived. Sperm is a way to magnify small changes into big ones. Like looking at a decaying atom to decide whether or not to kill a cat.

You show up in 1800 behind a tree, sit on a bench for 5 minutes, then go back behind the tree and vanish. Tiny changes propagate, spread out. They're tiny, but they're enough that different babies are conceived. The next generation is all siblings of who the people were going to be. And they make the world different in whatever huge ways. Kill Hitler on the last day of June, 1934, and everyone conceived from July on is someone different.

Stick to going back in time to kill people within your own lifespan, that's my advice.

The problem isn't strictly limited by sperm, your bumping may have caused a gust of wind to make another pollen seed travel to some plant.
So not only is everyone replaced, everything is replaced.

Now here's the fun part: everything could also be exactly the same. Let's use your sperm example.
The bumped man ejaculating later that night has the same 50 million spermatozoa he would have if he wasn't bumped.
There's a new lottery, but the original spermatozoon still has roughly 1 in 50 million chance to become part of the embryo.

I will admit there's an astronomically small chance that the timeline would continue exactly as it would if you hadn't intervened, but there's still a chance.

And here's the kicker: You could also be the sole reason that everything ended up the way it did. Maybe you were planning to kill Hitler, but missed and instead killed an assassin trying to kill Hitler, making you the reason the Holocaust happened?

[Roadrunner7671]

I wonder how Adam feels right now...

[Davio]

Sometimes you just have to let them go.

I once started the wildly popular "Random Stuff" topic, but haven't posted there (part 2 now) since a long long time.
It's a hard one to moderate though.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sometimes you just have to let them go.

I once started the wildly popular "Random Stuff" topic, but haven't posted there (part 2 now) since a long long time.
It's a hard one to moderate though.

You try to moderate it?

Random Stuff Part 2 is the only corner of the Internet that I've vowed never to go back to.

[Haddock]

And here's the kicker: You could also be the sole reason that everything ended up the way it did. Maybe you were planning to kill Hitler, but missed and instead killed an assassin trying to kill Hitler, making you the reason the Holocaust happened?

This is this:

Well, actually, just the fact that you were able to time-travel proves he could not have been related to you OR (and that is way more likely) you were only conceived because you bumped your own great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and thusly triggered the exact genetic chain that allowed you to time-travel in the first place.

Time-traveller rule #1 (revised): Bump whoever you like. It's only time travel.

The philosophy I subscribe to is this exact one.  Otherwise put:  If you try to change history through time travel, you will inevitable fail - you already have failed.

[pedroluchini]

If you try to change history through time travel, you will inevitable fail - you already have failed.

The future is going to will have been what it already was all along.

[teamrocketgrunt]

The philosophy I subscribe to is this exact one.  Otherwise put:  If you try to change history through time travel, you will inevitable fail - you already have failed.

That's true (well, unless you find that mask from Prince of Persia 2 that truely lets you alter the past - man, what a dumb game twist). What I particularly enjoy about the train of thought that is 'I bumped into my own ancestor while time-travelling and thus ensured my own conception' is that futurama-esque (remember the episode where Fry turns out to be his own grandfather?) absurdity. Being able to do this would make you capable of creating yourself out of nothing.

Time-traveller rule #1 (revised again): Bump whoever you want. They can't possibly be related to you.

[Davio]

And here's the kicker: You could also be the sole reason that everything ended up the way it did. Maybe you were planning to kill Hitler, but missed and instead killed an assassin trying to kill Hitler, making you the reason the Holocaust happened?

This is this:

Well, actually, just the fact that you were able to time-travel proves he could not have been related to you OR (and that is way more likely) you were only conceived because you bumped your own great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and thusly triggered the exact genetic chain that allowed you to time-travel in the first place.

Time-traveller rule #1 (revised): Bump whoever you like. It's only time travel.

The philosophy I subscribe to is this exact one.  Otherwise put:  If you try to change history through time travel, you will inevitable fail - you already have failed.

Aha!

Now here is where it gets really interesting...

You've accepted the fact that the past is the past and that no amount of trying to meddle with it will change it. It will only cause what we know has already happened.
Now let me expand this to the fact that today is tomorrow's past, I'll let that one sink in for a few seconds...

So, today being tomorrow's past, today is as fixed for a time traveler coming from the future as yesterday is to us living in (what we call) the present.
In a sense, today has already happened (to someone from the future) and nothing you can say or do will change anything about the way it has happened.
So free will is really just an illusion, you can read this, stop doing what you are doing and that's exactly what's supposed to happen.

Expanding on this idea even further, we can see that time in its entirety is just an illusion, everything from the start of time to the end of time has already happened and is set in stone...

What is a psychic then? Just someone who remembers in the wrong direction.

Which brings me to the following card:


Is the Fortune Teller telling the future to the butterfly or is the butterfly telling the future to the Fortune Teller?

[Haddock]

What is a psychic then? Just someone who remembers in the wrong direction.

This reminds me of a quote: "I just premembered you were going to say that." 
Can someone remind me where that's from?  Is it Hitchiker's?

[Davio]

I don't know, I watched a lot of Doctor Who and it's messing with my brain.

[teamrocketgrunt]

+ 1 for tying it to the butterfly again. In style. The OP will be so happy!

[Haddock]

Thief of Time.  That's the one.

[markusin]

And here's the kicker: You could also be the sole reason that everything ended up the way it did. Maybe you were planning to kill Hitler, but missed and instead killed an assassin trying to kill Hitler, making you the reason the Holocaust happened?

This is this:

Well, actually, just the fact that you were able to time-travel proves he could not have been related to you OR (and that is way more likely) you were only conceived because you bumped your own great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and thusly triggered the exact genetic chain that allowed you to time-travel in the first place.

Time-traveller rule #1 (revised): Bump whoever you like. It's only time travel.

The philosophy I subscribe to is this exact one.  Otherwise put:  If you try to change history through time travel, you will inevitable fail - you already have failed.

Donald explained why "Back to the Future"-esque time travel would have everything changed just by stepping foot in the past for a brief moment to divert wins currents and such. Butterfly effect and whatnot (hah, connected this with the OP).

What you're talking about is " Harry Potter 3"-esque time travel, which is sort of a paradox. I don't like that interpretation of time travel either.

Maybe you can time travel to an alternate timeline (or instantly create an alternate timeline) where your existence is not at all tied to the events of the timeline you've travelled to.

[AdamH]

I wonder how Adam feels right now...

Thanks for asking! <3

I've been really congested this past week, this kind of weather where the barometer doesn't want to make up its mind is kind of rough on my allergies. On the other hand, I worked a bunch of overtime recently at work and now I get to have a three-day weekend. I've caught up on a lot of sleep debt and I'm looking forward to getting more.

Also I got this weird loaf of bread from the reduced bakery at Jungle Jim's, it's got like a billion different types of grains in it. I just tried it for the first time and it was delicious.

Oh yeah, and I'm somehow on a group text for a game of Twilight Imperium 3 (or Starcraft, depending on how many people show up). While I appreciate the thought, it is a group text, and these people aren't shy about texting at 2AM on a group text. That was fun. Also, I'd rather die than play either of those games.

I'm also quite amused at all of this speculation about time travel -- so many people seem so sure of their opinions when really nobody has any idea whatsoever what would actually happen and probably nobody ever will <3

[pacovf]

Well, as far as I know, there are only two types of time travel that are self-consistent: alternate timelines, and closed timeloops. I find the former unsatisfying, because you aren't really travelling to your past (and because, functionally, it leads to your disappearance from the original timeline), and most stories with the latter are poorly executed. If anybody knows of anything else, I am all ears!

...I once tried to write down the rules for some sort of quantum superposition of timelines that would allow an approximation of Back-to-the-Future-style time travel that was still self-consistent, but never quite managed to finish.

Yes I am a nerd.

[Haddock]

Butterfly effect and whatnot (hah, connected this with the OP).

I ninja'd that on page 1, I'm afraid, no credit to you.

Oh go on then, +1.

[teamrocketgrunt]

I'm also quite amused at all of this speculation about time travel -- so many people seem so sure of their opinions when really nobody has any idea whatsoever what would actually happen and probably nobody ever will <3

I think you missed circling back to your original post, wrapping up this discussion about time-travel and putting a bow on it. It's the "Summon" question, isn't it? Is the lady summoning the butterfly or is it the other way around? I feel very content knowing that it's possible to qualify this whole spiralling thread as somewhat thematic on a very meta-level.

[Kirian]

My favorite time travel universe is the Fire Watch universe of Connie Willis.  That one is self-consistent; not only can you not change the past, you can't get near places where you might be able to change the past.  Try to visit Hitler in 1939, and you end up in Siberia in 1942.  Try to get near Waterloo, and you end up visiting with Chief Seattle.

You also can't bring anything back with you.  The one time someone does, the entire universe warps itself in tiny ways to reset things.

Now, you can say that predestination makes free will an illusion, but since you don't know your own future, what's the difference?  Are you going to sit on your ass and do nothing because you have 9nly illusory free will?  Sounds pretty boring.

[jamfamsam]

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the best proof that time travel isn't possible is that nobody from the future has ever shown up.

[eHalcyon]

This new line of discussion is making a pretty big assumption about how time travel works.  Who's to say your set timeline is how it actually works? Sci-fi is full of different self-consistent time travel ideas.

Bringing the thread full circle -- you take for granted that the lady is summoning a butterfly, but you don't know for sure.  Maybe it's a magical, colourful moth summoning a woman.  Maybe the summoner is not actually depicted at all and both woman and bug are the summoned!

[enfynet]

Well, eventually I will Summon my card from BGG. In that case, I can buy Summon for $3 and gain a card that costs $5.

[DoomYoshi]

This seems like a great place to post my personal ad:

There's a cafe a few towns over that plays diddily-dee Irish music on every other Wednesday. I will drink espresso, you can have local craft beers. Afterwards, we will go to a hockey game. I claim it's important, since you are visiting Canada. You say "we aren't in Canada, we are in Siberia". I realize you are right. This has been a dream all along. Now, quick, we must escape the beet army. Except you aren't you anymore, but a parallel timeline version of me. It seems I was at the wellspring of my life. The Butterfly Effect was a lie all along! Time travel is permissive, the great man theory of history holds. As long as you don't kill Napoleon or someone, you can do whatever you want. While at the wellspring, I made every mother and grandmother in my family tree a bit more ... eager. I ended up being born 130 years earlier. Now our date is impossible, as I am stuck at the Industrial Revolution and you are stuck at the Global Civil War. I leave this message in a bottle, hoping you will find it. Then you wake up... I am the man of your dreams.

[Davio]

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the best proof that time travel isn't possible is that nobody from the future has ever shown up.

We obviously don't know for sure.

There could be many time refugees living among us, having jumped back right at the moment the apocalypse began and it may be that they know they should not reveal themselves.
Let's say there was a modern day Pompeii (and even though we have time travel, we can't predict when a volcano will explode) and the entire population just jumped to a random destination to escape.

The census in a lot of countries isn't really accurate, so I'm pretty sure no-one would notice if 10,000 extra people were suddenly added to the Chinese population, that's only a 0.0007% increase for them. They could go live off in some remote village, plow fields, keep some cattle and just live out their lives. It becomes more interesting when they start reproducing...

[pacovf]

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the best proof that time travel isn't possible is that nobody from the future has ever shown up.

We could have a type of time travel that doesn't allow time travel to a time before the invention of time travel / construction of the device / etc.

This new line of discussion is making a pretty big assumption about how time travel works.  Who's to say your set timeline is how it actually works? Sci-fi is full of different self-consistent time travel ideas.

Do you have any examples of self-consistent time travel that doesn't boil down to either alternate timelines or closed time-loops? I'm interested!

[eHalcyon]

This new line of discussion is making a pretty big assumption about how time travel works.  Who's to say your set timeline is how it actually works? Sci-fi is full of different self-consistent time travel ideas.

Do you have any examples of self-consistent time travel that doesn't boil down to either alternate timelines or closed time-loops? I'm interested!

Nothing specific.  Maybe it does all boil down to those two.  I'm just saying that the closed time-loop isn't the only possibility.

[iguanaiguana]

Guys, I just looked at the news and Hitler never existed! Someone did it!

Do you think it was one of us?

[eHalcyon]

Guys, I just looked at the news and Hitler never existed! Someone did it!

Do you think it was one of us?

Who's that now?

What kind of news do you read or watch that reports on something not having happened?

[Kirian]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2920

[Roadrunner7671]

What kind of news do you read or watch that reports on something not having happened?

The Onion!

[Donald X.]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2920

http://www.viruscomix.com/page382.html

[Donald X.]

My favorite time travel universe is the Fire Watch universe of Connie Willis.  That one is self-consistent; not only can you not change the past, you can't get near places where you might be able to change the past.  Try to visit Hitler in 1939, and you end up in Siberia in 1942.  Try to get near Waterloo, and you end up visiting with Chief Seattle.

I in turn will recommend The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers. It does have some poems that no-one wrote, but that's just because that's cool.

[markusin]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2920

http://www.viruscomix.com/page382.html

And back go SMBC:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3266

[AdamH]

Well, as far as I know, there are only two types of time travel that are self-consistent: alternate timelines, and closed timeloops. I find the former unsatisfying, because you aren't really travelling to your past (and because, functionally, it leads to your disappearance from the original timeline), and most stories with the latter are poorly executed. If anybody knows of anything else, I am all ears!

You should watch the movie "Los Cronocrimenes". It's a Spanish film and it is excellent with the internally consistent closed time loop.

*This post brought to you by not-Adam.

[LastFootnote]

You should watch the movie "Los Cronocrimenes". It's a Spanish film and it is excellent with the internally consistent closed time loop.

*This post brought to you by not-Adam.

I second this. Great movie. It's English name is "Timecrimes".

[LibraryAdventurer]

Personally, my favorite time travel movie is Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure

Thief of Time.  That's the one.

I love Terry Pratchett

[Kirian]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2920

http://www.viruscomix.com/page382.html

And back go SMBC:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3266

And because SMBC leaves no dead horses unbeaten:
http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3918

[faust]

Butterfly effect and whatnot (hah, connected this with the OP).

I ninja'd that on page 1, I'm afraid, no credit to you.

Oh go on then, +1.

Pretty sure you just time travelled back to an earlier date when you saw this post to ninja it.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe time travel just isn't as straightforward as we think it would be:

[Haddock]

[pedroluchini]

unless you find that mask from Prince of Persia 2 that truely lets you alter the past - man, what a dumb game twist

I have to disagree! Warrior Within is a very flawed game, but this is one of the (few) things I liked about it. It paired a plot twist with a gameplay twist! Plot-wise, the Prince was on a very tight schedule in order to meet his other self; game-wise, the player had to rush because of the Prince's constantly-depleting health.

[teamrocketgrunt]

I have to disagree! Warrior Within is a very flawed game, but this is one of the (few) things I liked about it. It paired a plot twist with a gameplay twist! Plot-wise, the Prince was on a very tight schedule in order to meet his other self; game-wise, the player had to rush because of the Prince's constantly-depleting health.

Huh. It's (sort of) the other way around for me. I actually liked the game itself (I liked the additional challenge playing as the Sandwraith as well), but the plot-twist always felt very forced to me.

The Prince tries to prevent the Sands of Time from being created by travelling to the past. Then after facing so many challenges fighting his way through both the ruined palace in its present state and the glorious structure it once was, he realizes, his attempts at altering the present by altering the past were futile and that he himself caused the creation of the sands by travelling back in time. So far, so good. That felt consistent and - I thought -atmospheric. And then the game goes "But wait. All is not lost because - it just so happens - that there is one object that actually lets you alter the past. And - get that - it's also here in the palace that you're in right now."

I'm not even argueing on a time-travel-logic-level because the discussion in this forum made me realize how little I knew about different approaches, I just felt like the developers kind of pulled that item out of their sleeve to give the game a "good ending" and it screwed with the underlying message of the whole game: You can't outsmart your destiny.

I did play the game a couple of times. The first time when I was like fifteen, though. Maybe I formed an opinion too early. I don't know.

[Awaclus]

I think it was a good game. The plot is really just an excuse to have an action/platformer game with interesting mechanics, and the game doesn't really need to be anything more than that since it pulls it off very nicely.