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[iguanaiguana]

Thread locked!

[iguanaiguana]

With the arsonist's holding a larger and larger percentage of the vote, it was getting harder to find false trees among the grove. Even with the firefighter outing himself, little could be done when no one knew who was false and who was true. Finally, the trees turned on Treeofakind, taking his lovable character as hatred in disguise. But as the woodcutters came, it quickly became clear that they had been wrong once again. Now only time will tell whether the trees survive the night or their forest is lost forever.

Day 4 Final Vote Count:

silverspawn (1): Gkrieg
Hydrad (4): silverspawn, Roadrunner, Awaclus, Yuma
Not Voting (3): Hydrad, Eevee

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch. Hydrad was Treeofakind the Tree. N4 begins now and ends on December 28 at 11:30AM forum time.

[iguanaiguana]

As the new day dawns, the arsonists come out in public, confident in their abilities to light the trees. Treebob the tree (AKA Roadrunner), and Treevee, the ancient tree housing Smoky the bear the firefighter (AKA Eevee) burst into spectacular flames like new year's fireworks. Treeson the tree (AKA Awaclus) also begins to crackle, but resists explosion due to the earlier efforts of Smoky the bear. Alas, it is not enough. After the fire, only Treeson and Treebeer (AKA Gkrieg13) remain standing. The arsonists, Larceny Larry (AKA silverspawn) and Angry Andy (AKA Yuma) dance around in gleeful abandon, delighted with themselves for proving to everyone that they are smarter than foliage.

The game is over. The mafia team of silverspawn and Yuma win in a flawless victory!

[iguanaiguana]

Here are the quicktopics!

Speccy: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/VkSJSv8nqwCZF/p16.1
Mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/NtfdhgePY7S/p55.39
Firefighter: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/cGp2fGccHQRR
Mod: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/yGdciYjPrtL

The MVP for this game is silverspawn. He played the role of false town leader well, and managed to divert the increasing attention toward lynching him throughout the game. MVP nod to the losing side goes to Ashersky, for calling the scum correctly and various other good plays.

[Awaclus]

I feel like town was severely hurt by the holidays.

[gkrieg13]

I agree. I'm also glad my reads were decent this game.

[silverspawn]

(that was to clear yuma, not to mock anyone)

[silverspawn]

So, thanks for the mvp I guess, but I still have to address the flavor thing, because I do strongly disagree with the decision you made there, and it could have decided the game.

I was planing to fakeclaim firefighter since the start of the game...

For the trees!

I, uh, wow. We are doing this voluntarily?

sure, but that doesn't mean that they don't matter.

collective buddying! vote: Eevee

fire is evil. vote: Hydrad

flavor is relevant?

I am m pretty sure flavor is indicative of alignment unless the mod says otherwise.

good question. If I knew the answer, the game would be solved.

hey, we don't disagree.

I don't know what the point is.

The point is that I think Treeson's alignment may not be random and I like using evidence if it's there,

Okey, so. I think what that means is that lynching strong town players is better than it'd normally be, since now the drawback is smaller.

right. have you ever seen, in your entire career of mafia, a scum trying to rolefish?

and was looking forward to it if a good opportunity was to come up... which it did. I was under quite a bit of scrutiny but so was Eevee, and I was pretty confident that I would beat him in a 1 - 1 standoff. I was much less confident that I'd beat hydrad... which I did, but it was a greater risk.

But the firefighter also hides inside of a tree, and he has a unique flavor name, so if I claim firefighter and someone asks me for my flavor name, I'm rip.

I pm'd igu about this, and after a lot of back and forth, he still refused to give me a real fake name. He said I could use my 'normal' fakeclaim (i.e. treehugger), but treehugger is a pony not a tree I don't think treehugger has any chance against a "real" name, since it's obviously one of the trees. My proposal was to do one of the following

- guarantee me that my real name sounds as firefighter-y as the firefighter's name (which I suspect isn't the case)
- give me the firefighter's flavor name
- make up another name that sounds as much as the firefighter as the ff's flavor name

But he didn't; in the end he just told me to make up my own name. I am terrible at making up names and didn't want to gamble my life on that, so I ended up not counterclaiming Eevee. I don't think that should have happened. I think the setup clearly intends the possibility for scum to fakeclaim firefighter.

[silverspawn]

Regardless of balance, I also think it would have made the game more exciting.

[iguanaiguana]

All I can say is that silverspawn's recounting of our conversation here is incredibly inaccurate to what actually occurred. I originally gave silverspawn the fake tree name "TreehuggeD," IE: a tree that has been hugged (by a treehugger). When he pointed out to me that he wanted to claim firefighter and didn't have a fake flavor name to use, and once I understood the problem sufficiently, I offered him the fake flavor name "TreehuggeR." IE: a person who hugs trees, which was the best flavor name I could think of for him, and the only one I could think of that would be able to stand up to the flavor claim I gave to Eevee, Smoky the Bear. I didn't want to give away Eevee's flavor name to silverspawn because I didn't tell Eevee that I would be doing this. I stand by that decision. It is unfortunate that I didn't think of how that could potentially skew the game before it happened, but I am a first time mod. Part of joining any first time mod's game is accepting that the mod may make mistakes and may not be able to 100% correct for them once the game has begun.

Anyway, silverspawn didn't like the name Treehugger because it had "tree" in it like all the other tree names. I then told him that I couldn't think of any other name for him besides that name, and if he didn't like the fake flavor claim that I offered him that he could use another one instead.

The way that silverspawn approached me throughout this interchange was haughty, arrogant and rude, and left me with a very distasteful modding experience. So the fact that he is bringing it up here now and continuing to berate me is really just par for the course. I do not think I will be modding again. I really have nothing else to say about this and will not be continuing this conversation.

[scott_pilgrim]

Since you seem to be very frustrated, I hope you're not offended by this at all, but I can understand silverspawn's frustration.  In fact, I don't see why you couldn't have just given him Eevee's flavor name.  In fact it looks like you thought about that:

I didn't want to give away Eevee's flavor name to silverspawn because I didn't tell Eevee that I would be doing this. I stand by that decision.

But how would this be unfair to Eevee or town?  It should be assumed from the set-up that scum is allowed to counterclaim, and matching the flavor name makes that possible.  Eevee will know that silverspawn is lying in either case, it's not like giving him a separate flavor name changes the outcome of the claim.  So I think for sure the right call in that situation is to just give silverspawn Eevee's flavor name.

That being said, I also think silverspawn should have just gone with the name you gave him.  I'm skeptical that his fake claim would have gotten him into any trouble at all.  I mean I think it's just as likely for people to make the argument "Eevee is lying because his flavor name doesn't start with 'tree'" as "silverspawn is lying because his name starts with 'tree'".

Really the solution to all of this is to just post all flavor info in the thread before the game starts, at least for open games (I'm not calling out iguana specifically, a lot of mods do this).

[gkrieg13]

All I can say is that silverspawn's recounting of our conversation here is incredibly inaccurate to what actually occurred. I originally gave silverspawn the fake tree name "TreehuggeD," IE: a tree that has been hugged (by a treehugger). When he pointed out to me that he wanted to claim firefighter and didn't have a fake flavor name to use, and once I understood the problem sufficiently, I offered him the fake flavor name "TreehuggeR." IE: a person who hugs trees, which was the best flavor name I could think of for him, and the only one I could think of that would be able to stand up to the flavor claim I gave to Eevee, Smoky the Bear. I didn't want to give away Eevee's flavor name to silverspawn because I didn't tell Eevee that I would be doing this. I stand by that decision. It is unfortunate that I didn't think of how that could potentially skew the game before it happened, but I am a first time mod. Part of joining any first time mod's game is accepting that the mod may make mistakes and may not be able to 100% correct for them once the game has begun.

Anyway, silverspawn didn't like the name Treehugger because it had "tree" in it like all the other tree names. I then told him that I couldn't think of any other name for him besides that name, and if he didn't like the fake flavor claim that I offered him that he could use another one instead.

The way that silverspawn approached me throughout this interchange was haughty, arrogant and rude, and left me with a very distasteful modding experience. So the fact that he is bringing it up here now and continuing to berate me is really just par for the course. I do not think I will be modding again. I really have nothing else to say about this and will not be continuing this conversation.

I had fun and enjoyed you as mod. I disagree with ss on this one and English being his second language might influence how arrogant he sounds.

[yuma]

This is why I don't use flavor in my games. Ultimately it ends up being a lot of work that a lot of people don't even read and can impact the game in a way that was not intended. In my opinion unless the setup was specifically designed to have flavor be meanibgful flavor should be strictly meaningless. That wasnt the case here, but that said, mod gets to make the rules.

Modding is hard and it isn't for everyone. There is a lot to it that isn't seen from the outside on even the simplist of games. I do think that our community could use more direction and guidelines on modding, but sometimes I get push back for that suggestion, and I don't see anything wrong with critiquing moderation choices because mistakes or correct rationales could be useful for future mods to learn from and reference.

[yuma]

Also let it be known that scum!yuma is perfectly capable of lurking. All the games where I worked so hard and posted so much finally paid off. Not that I would have posted any more as town... This was a game where I just didn't have a lot of time nor incentive to post as much....

[Roadrunner7671]

Man...

[iguanaiguana]

Modding is hard and it isn't for everyone.

I agree. I don't think modding is for me. I am not a detail person in the way that modding requires; that is what I found out by trying to mod this game. Thanks to everyone who came along for the ride anyway.

[yuma]

One other take away from this game. Correct reads are nice. Getting people to believe in your reads and follow is nicer.

[Eevee]

At least I was right about one thing during this game.

It was when I expressed how truly, madly, deeply I suck.

Very gg scum.

[Hydrad]

ah well. was still fun. although i was wrong about yuma.

[ashersky]

Man, I was so incredibly right and was an IC and still no one listened.

[yuma]

Man, I was so incredibly right and was an IC and still no one listened.

Lynch SS please.

I think it's ss/Yuma, pending an eevee counter.

Still saying yuma + SS.

Lynch SS now.

I think SS is the reason we didn't get a lynch yesterday.  Scum loved the no lynch.

You might have been "incredibly" right, but I don't blame anyone for not listening to you. I mean looking at your posts from Day3/4 about ss and myself, you weren't all that convincing. It isn't like being an IC gives you automatically good reads...

You will have to ask the other townies why they didn't follow, but I would guess that it had something to do with your reads not being backed up by anything and the fear of them being based off a grudge held over from previous games.

Correct reads are nice. Getting people to believe in your reads and follow is nicer.

[ashersky]

Man, I was so incredibly right and was an IC and still no one listened.

Lynch SS please.

I think it's ss/Yuma, pending an eevee counter.

Still saying yuma + SS.

Lynch SS now.

I think SS is the reason we didn't get a lynch yesterday.  Scum loved the no lynch.

You might have been "incredibly" right, but I don't blame anyone for not listening to you. I mean looking at your posts from Day3/4 about ss and myself, you weren't all that convincing. It isn't like being an IC gives you automatically good reads...

You will have to ask the other townies why they didn't follow, but I would guess that it had something to do with your reads not being backed up by anything and the fear of them being based off a grudge held over from previous games.

Correct reads are nice. Getting people to believe in your reads and follow is nicer.

It was all on purpose -- the way I usually play had not been successful at all.  No one listened to me when I made actual cases and pushed super hard, so I changed my play style on purpose.

I did make a strong case on SS, which was ignored.  I knew you were scum not based on any case but based on playing a million games with you.  I knew SS was scum based on the case I made.

Had I been normal ash, no one would have listened to me.  Go look at every game ever for proof.  So I tried a different tactic -- call it fauststyle.  I thought it might work given how much people sheep him.  I guess no matter what I do or say, no matter how right I am, no one believes I'm any good at being town.

[silverspawn]

All I can say is that silverspawn's recounting of our conversation here is incredibly inaccurate to what actually occurred. I originally gave silverspawn the fake tree name "TreehuggeD," IE: a tree that has been hugged (by a treehugger). When he pointed out to me that he wanted to claim firefighter and didn't have a fake flavor name to use, and once I understood the problem sufficiently, I offered him the fake flavor name "TreehuggeR." IE: a person who hugs trees, which was the best flavor name I could think of for him, and the only one I could think of that would be able to stand up to the flavor claim I gave to Eevee, Smoky the Bear. I didn't want to give away Eevee's flavor name to silverspawn because I didn't tell Eevee that I would be doing this. I stand by that decision. It is unfortunate that I didn't think of how that could potentially skew the game before it happened, but I am a first time mod. Part of joining any first time mod's game is accepting that the mod may make mistakes and may not be able to 100% correct for them once the game has begun.

I actually just didn't get that. I thought that my name was Treehugged, when you said it's treehugger, I thought that I had remembered it wrong and it was treehugger all along. I didn't think you were making it a new name.

I don't think that this changes that much, but yeah, that has been a misunderstanding.

The way that silverspawn approached me throughout this interchange was haughty, arrogant and rude, and left me with a very distasteful modding experience. So the fact that he is bringing it up here now and continuing to berate me is really just par for the course. I do not think I will be modding again. I really have nothing else to say about this and will not be continuing this conversation.

This is a pretty harsh accusation, especially because I tried to be as polite as possible. But instead of arguing, I'll just copy my messages here to let everyone else decide.

[silverspawn]

Here are my messages (not including yours since you didn't give me permission):

Can you quote me the pm from the firefighter (without name, of course), or if not then tell me his flavor name? Otherwise I'm potentially handycapped when trying to fakeclaim.

You have a firefighter PM in the OP, but you also have an arsonist PM in the OP, and they're not identical (doesn't include my flavor name)

that's unfair. flavor is not supposed to give any faction an edge over another unless that's part of the design. You took a setup without flavor and added flavor that now gives town an advantage.

You gave us a tree fakeclaim, but not a firefighter fakeclaim. I should be able to 'safely' fakeclaim any role in the game, not just VT.

Like, let's say I claim firefighter. Then the real firefighter counterclaims me. He says his flavor name, asks me for mine. What do I claim?

My only other flavor name besides  the tree fakeclaim is Larceny Larry. I have no idea where that name comes from or if it in any way indicates Arsonist over firefighter.

Thus, I need a flavor name that puts me on equal odds with the real firefighter in a claim - counterclaim scenario. Treehugger doesn't, and I'm not sure if Larceny Larry does.

It'd be sufficient to have a flavor name that's safe for claiming firefighter.

If you can guarantee that my flavor name is that, then that's fine.

...

look, this is how it's going to go

- silver: Okay I have claim to make. I am the firefighter.
- B: vote: silver He is lying. I am the firefighter.
- C: silver, what is your flavor name? B, what is your flavor name?
- B: It's XXX
: silver: uhhh I don't know?
- everyone: okay silver is lying. let's lynch him

This is clearly not intended, which is why I need you to do one of the following three things:

- confirm that my real name and the firefighter's real name won't give anyone a clue about which one of us is the firefighter (if this is the case)
- tell me the firefighter's real name
- give me an adequate fake name that sounds equally like a firefighter than the firefighter's name does.

This really isn't a big deal. In the second or third game I modded, I forgot to tell scum the exact wincon of town players. they asked, I gave it to them, problem solved, everyone's happy.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't solve the problem at all.

Look. If you don't want flavor to matter, then the solution you are proposing does the opposite.

I am obviously not going to make this a discussion about flavor being that I'm scum, but others are probably going to do it, and as soon as anyone has the right idea to ask us about our flavor names, I would bet 100$ against 10$ that I am going to be lynched if I claim to be called 'Treehugged' while the firefighter has a real name.

Giving me the flavor name of the firefighter is in no way unfair. Of course I have the opportunity to claim it before he does - just like he has the opportunity to claim it before I do. Whoever claims first claims first. The only thing which is suboptimal about that is that you should have told the firefighter from the beginning that scum knows his name.

It'd probably go something like this - someone is going to wonder if scum knows the firefighter's real name, someone is going to ask in the thread, you are going to say yes, and we are on equal terms.

But you can easily sidestep the issue by making up a new name that sounds as authentic as the real one. I don't know why this is even a problem.

Okay, I got one letter wrong. It's not like this changes the issue in the slightest. 'Treehugger' won't compete with a name that doesn't have tree in its name. Claiming is still suicide.

Look. This is really a very simple issue with a very simple solution, but I assume you believe that I'm biased because I'm playing in this game. How about you ask someone outside of rhe game for advise? (faust is your best option, he's the second most active mod and isn't playing). If you explain him the situation he'll tell you to give me an adequate flavor claim.

Otherwise, your game is unfair. Dunno what else to say. You're really making a problem out of what should have been a simple answer.

I really don't think I was rude and didn't intend to be, but if others think so too, then please tell me, because that clearly means something is wrong with my way of writing

[silverspawn]

Also note that I intentionally didn't bring this up at first (right after the game ended), because I wanted to give you the opportunity to present your side of the story before I do.