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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards  (Read 59723 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2015, 10:39:08 am »
0

Hamlet is definitely better than Fool's Gold, in that it's more often useful. I skip Fool's Gold way more often than I skip Hamlet. But it's pretty close.

That does not mean Hamlet is better though. Of course you don't skip Hamlet often; it's a cantrip. But FG impacts the game way more when you do get it, and thus it deserves to be above Hamlet.

FG is more dramatic - it's either a huge effect on the game or a minimal one - but Hamlet is just so really good, and has an impact on more boards than Fool's Gold does. Maybe I've just played too many Tunnel, Menagerie, Watchtower, etc. games where Hamlet availability and winning the split made all the difference.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2015, 11:08:25 am »
+1

I ranked Page over Chapel. I hope I'm wrong about its power, but I am worried about Page-Warrior pins.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2015, 11:31:25 am »
0

I ranked Page over Chapel. I hope I'm wrong about its power, but I am worried about Page-Warrior pins.

Very, very few Kingdoms have only and cards, and there's always Gold.  It's not that bad of a pin.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2015, 11:55:06 am »
0

I ranked Page over Chapel. I hope I'm wrong about its power, but I am worried about Page-Warrior pins.

Very, very few Kingdoms have only and cards, and there's always Gold.  It's not that bad of a pin.

I hope you're right.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2015, 12:31:35 pm »
+13

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2015, 01:02:28 pm »
+15



I don't think you need to worry about getting bad advice from Adviser here... he's just going to be trashed by Warrior anyway.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2015, 01:39:59 pm »
+11

To me it seems the events have to be ranked based on different metrics than regular cards and those metrics vary from event to event. What does it really mean for an event to be strong?

This is why I supported them having their own separate list. Comparing Dominion cards is already comparing apples and oranges, but comparing cards and Events is comparing apples and otters.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2015, 02:26:17 pm »
+4


To me it seems the events have to be ranked based on different metrics than regular cards and those metrics vary from event to event. What does it really mean for an event to be strong?

I disagree... for an event to be strong means the exact same thing that it means for a card to be strong: "How often is it a good idea to buy it." Or as LastFootnote says, "If your opponent weren't allowed to buy one card/event, and you weren't allowed to buy a different card/event, who would be at a disadvantage because of it?"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2015, 02:40:08 pm »
0

The Best - Cards (Part 3/3)

#7 ▼1 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 76.4% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 76.3% / Median: 81.0% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9%

Hamlet lost this year one rank again. But it would be even 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted only 7 times below 50%.

Sorry, one of those was me!  I just realized that I screwed up some of my lists by using both the ranking and comparison interfaces.  Somehow, Hamlet ended up in the bottom 5, when it should have been in the top 10.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2015, 07:45:20 pm »
0

I'm in the camp of hamlet being a good card. I think I voted that higher than courtyard.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2015, 08:42:21 pm »
+1

I'm in the camp of Haven being a good card. I don't understand why so many people hate it. It gets synergizing cards to line up with each other, if you don't need all your coin this turn it saves a treasure for next turn, it gives you a six card hand next turn, and it make victory cards miss the reshufle. This is useful stuff. It should be at least higher than Pawn.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 08:43:33 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2015, 07:47:07 am »
0

I'm in the camp of both Haven and Hamlet being good cards, although I think everyone agrees on the latter. Still I expected it to be higher on the list.

What baffles me a bit is Raze at #15. Raze is probably my favourite card from Adventures and, although I might be overestimating it a bit, I ranked it at #3. Is that so crazy?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2015, 09:44:01 am »
+7

This is fun, so I'll post where my rankings differ from the group's by 5 or more ranks -- there was a good amount of noise but I suppose that arbitrary cutoff is where I'd say my opinion is significantly different than the majority.

Borrow I ranked 3rd, it's 16th here
Save I ranked 4th, it's 18th here.


Borrow is ridiculous. I feel like you're criminally underrating this event. No longer do you have to put Silver in your deck just to hit $5, you can open with that fiver and be done with it!

Save, well, I'm willing to say I overrated it, but it's still waaaaaay better than 18th place. Borrow and Save make pretty much every strategy better, and they are both high-skill events. I will be shocked if they don't skyrocket for the next edition of the cards lists once people get to play with them more (and watch Stef and MQ play with them). There is ridiculous power here that I feel like most people just aren't seeing.

Coin of the Realm I ranked 5th, it's 13th here.

This has already been discussed some here, so this is just me weighing in. Coin is really really stinking good. It's way better as your village than anything else imaginable if you're building a village+terminal draw deck. Like, super-way better.

Haven I ranked 13th, it's 22nd here.

There has been some discussion on this already, so yeah I'm weighing in again. I don't really feel like the arguments for saying Haven is bad are all that compelling. Sure, you rarely want more than two of them in a deck, but its effect is really really good. If anything, I'm worried I underrated it.

Crossroads I ranked 22nd, it's 12th here.

Wow, I think I underrated Crossroads. Not sure where that came from. Maybe 12th is too high but I dunno, it's probably close. This has very little to do with a comparison to Coin, but is more along the lines of it just being a better card than 22nd in this ranking.

Embargo I ranked 23rd, it's 28th here.

A small difference, but I like where I put Embargo. It's really useful for a lot of things that people have just not thought about at all. It's not as good in mirror matches which tend to be more common among players here, but even then, sticking an Embargo on the only village or the only draw if you're ahead/behind can be a big move that I think many people overlook.

Alms I ranked 26th, it's 14th here.

Another one that has been discussed. I admit that Events are hard to compare to cards since the opportunity cost is much less (one buy plus whatever cost is usually less than a card and sometimes an action). I'm pretty happy with where I put it -- when it comes into play it's usually only a slight benefit. This one probably suffers the most from peoples' differing definitions on what makes a card "good" in terms of this list.

EDIT: Putting in my full rankings for reference and for funsies.

Code: [Select]
1.) Chapel   [X]
2.) Page   [X]
3.) Borrow   [X]
4.) Save   [X]
5.) Coin of the Realm   [X]
6.) Peasant   [X]
7.) Courtyard   [X]
8.) Stonemason   [X]
9.) Lighthouse   [X]
10.) Hamlet   [X]
11.) Squire   [X]
12.) Ratcatcher   [X]
13.) Haven   [X]
14.) Candlestick Maker   [X]
15.) Raze   [X]
16.) Native Village   [X]
17.) Cellar   [X]
18.) Travelling Fair   [X]
19.) Vagrant   [X]
20.) Moat   [X]
21.) Fool's Gold   [X]
22.) Crossroads   [X]
23.) Embargo   [X]
24.) Pawn   [X]
25.) Poor House   [X]
26.) Alms   [X]
27.) Scouting Party   [X]
28.) Pearl Diver   [X]
29.) Beggar   [X]
30.) Herbalist   [X]
31.) Quest   [X]
32.) Secret Chamber   [X]
33.) Duchess   [X]
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 10:49:21 am by AdamH »
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2015, 10:52:49 am »
+3

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2015, 10:56:25 am »
0

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.

Uhh, yeah I do have that there. As previously mentioned maybe Save shouldn't be that high so I'd be happy saying Peasant is number 5 here. I could also make an argument that it should be lower than 5.

But yeah it's pretty close. I mean, they're right next to each other. Peasant is SUPER slow and has a HUGE opportunity cost, and Teacher is SUPER slow and its payload isn't very explosive or fast. Coin is really really good, it's a much lower opportunity cost and can make a lot of decks much, much better.

I don't think we disagree all that much, really.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2015, 10:58:47 am »
+3

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.

Uhh, yeah I do have that there. As previously mentioned maybe Save shouldn't be that high so I'd be happy saying Peasant is number 5 here. I could also make an argument that it should be lower than 5.

But yeah it's pretty close. I mean, they're right next to each other. Peasant is SUPER slow and has a HUGE opportunity cost, and Teacher is SUPER slow and its payload isn't very explosive or fast. Coin is really really good, it's a much lower opportunity cost and can make a lot of decks much, much better.

I don't think we disagree all that much, really.

I honestly think Page is slower than Peasant.  Warrior can be devastating in the right situations, but TH and Hero slow things down, whereas Fugitive and Disciple speed things up, and Soldier can give an insane amount of age.  But Teacher certainly is more finicky to deal with than Champion, yes.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2015, 11:03:02 am »
0

Really, you have Peasant under CotR?  We can debate relative positions of Events, but surely both Travellers are in the top 5 here.

Uhh, yeah I do have that there. As previously mentioned maybe Save shouldn't be that high so I'd be happy saying Peasant is number 5 here. I could also make an argument that it should be lower than 5.

But yeah it's pretty close. I mean, they're right next to each other. Peasant is SUPER slow and has a HUGE opportunity cost, and Teacher is SUPER slow and its payload isn't very explosive or fast. Coin is really really good, it's a much lower opportunity cost and can make a lot of decks much, much better.

I don't think we disagree all that much, really.

I honestly think Page is slower than Peasant.  Warrior can be devastating in the right situations, but TH and Hero slow things down, whereas Fugitive and Disciple speed things up, and Soldier can give an insane amount of age.  But Teacher certainly is more finicky to deal with than Champion, yes.

Once again, I think we mostly agree.

I detailed this in my Adventures talk, I think this was before you were on the line. Teacher is much more finicky to deal with than Champion and this is what I'm talking about here. Given that, I'd say Page/Champion is worth the opportunity cost much more often than Peasant/Teacher. But I think we agreed on that too? Yeah OK. I mean you ranked Page higher than Peasant, right?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2015, 11:10:25 am »
0

I think Champion is better than Teacher, but I believe I rated Peasant better overall.  Soldier and Disciple are just too good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2015, 12:09:06 pm »
+1

I admit that there was lots of speculation involved in my rankings of Adventures cards/events. I have Coin of the Realm at 10 and Borrow just below it at 11. I think I really have to bump up Save from where I have it now. I now think it solves the issues with Haven, which is that you don't have a guarantee that you can use Haven's effect when you need it. Maybe it the start of the turn and you don't know what to set aside yet, or you can only afford to set aside a VP card then wait for Haven to be cleanup up before getting another shot at it doing something. With Save you can be sure to use its effect when it benefits you, and you have lots of information during the buy phase on what to save.

I still have Courtyard in my top 5, just below Chapel and the Travellers. I'm telling you Courtyard stands the test of time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2015, 12:45:15 pm »
+23

Chapel and the Travellers

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2015, 07:19:10 pm »
0

I don't see why Hamlet is so good. With another village, it's trash. It has the issue like Spy and Pawn where you make long, irrelevent decisions. And without Draw-to-X or Tunnel or some big synergy, Hamlet really doesn't look good. Sorta like a beefed up Vagrant.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #121 on: November 09, 2015, 08:28:07 pm »
+4

I don't see why Hamlet is so good. With another village, it's trash. It has the issue like Spy and Pawn where you make long, irrelevent decisions. And without Draw-to-X or Tunnel or some big synergy, Hamlet really doesn't look good. Sorta like a beefed up Vagrant.
As long as you have good draw, Hamlet is a boss card. Hamlet + good draw + practically any source of coin is a simple but strong engine, with the extra bonus that Hamlet's choices mean you practically always have exactly the bits of the engine you need at that point - so if you don't need an extra Buy, you don't have to have it, but it's there when you need it; similarly if you *have* picked up all the spare Actions you need, then you can just shift into +Buy mode instead. And I don't think the choices are "irrelevant" as much as you think. Spy definitely has that issue, but Hamlet and Pawn are both important *because* they let you choose such a variety of outcomes, and if you think you're always making the same decision then you're probably using them wrong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2015, 10:39:13 pm »
0

It has the issue like Spy and Pawn where you make long, irrelevent decisions.

I disagree that the decisions are irrelevant, and I don't know what's relevant about the decisions being long. Being slow to resolve does not make a card any worse.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #123 on: November 12, 2015, 12:48:52 pm »
+1

Should I scan in Base, Cornucopia and Envoy?

Yes, please do this! Especially if you have a copy of Base that has the bright yellow-colored Coin symbols of later sets, rather than the uglier brown ones.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $0-$2 cards
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2015, 01:08:36 pm »
+2

Should I scan in Base, Cornucopia and Envoy?

Yes, please do this! Especially if you have a copy of Base that has the bright yellow-colored Coin symbols of later sets, rather than the uglier brown ones.

I'll probably do that tonight - I'm supposed to get Summon in the mail today.
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