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Author Topic: royal carriage, what?  (Read 5865 times)

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schadd

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royal carriage, what?
« on: October 01, 2015, 07:34:17 pm »
0


my intuition for this card is that, like transmogrify, it has a high skill ceiling and is also not very good. the thing about that, though, is that it kinda has to be good because of all the things that it does.
the other throne rooms seem sort of solvable, almost, get throne room when you have a high action density (especially with expensive actions and village scarcity), get procession in similar cases as long as the upgrade process has some destination, and get king's court if you have $7 and there isn't goons, maybe.
royal carriage is a better card than throne room in, like, the sort of situations that you aren't trying to come up with right now, such as, you draw it with no actions, being the obvious one, and you don't have to cry until you watch the one futurama episode later today or when beck hits the high note in debra, ohoho. also, there are a bunch cases where procession is a problem that throne isn't, evident in most of the card rankings the community has to offer.
king's court is probably one of the best cards that there is, but not at adding to this discussion.
so royal carriage is demonstrably, like, an okay card. playing action cards is your method of being an agent and carriage lets you do that indiscriminately, and also that was a lie because the reason that it's good(?) is that you in fact use it very discriminantly.
i think royal carriage shines in kingdoms that have cards that cost more than $5, because you will be able to double them quite often if you want to for less money, and, more uncomfortably, in kingdoms that benefit from being able to get one strong turn to get the ball rolling, sorta like tactician i guess? what comes to mind for this, is, conspirator, things to stack up for on-buy (haggler, cost reducers/merchant guild, maybe horn of plenty counts) and maybe when trashing is hard to deal with (terminal trash-ones and cursing but cursers tend to make it hard to get to $5 and then spend it on a non-curser)

does any of that at all makes sense? how bad are my assessments? do you get carriage in the kingdom of, say, salvager, moneylender, witch, bazaar, carriage, hunting grounds? is tactician a good comparison? is it a good idea to forsake scrutiny with the card art? (yes)

thank you for your time
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 10:35:19 pm by schadd »
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eHalcyon

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 07:48:11 pm »
+7

It's worth noting that you can call multiple Royal Carriages on the same action card.  4 Throne Rooms and a Bridge make a (usually) bad hand.  Bridge with 4 RCs in the tavern can be game-ending.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 08:12:28 pm »
+8

Royal Carriage is great. Generally useful, strong card.

It is sometimes a worse "village" than Throne Room because you can't Carriage a Carriage usefully. Sometimes a better "village" (when you just have one copy of a terminal you want to play multiple times, like eHalcyon's example).

Much better than the other Throne variants with respect to timing and information, can save it til needed. Since you play the action first before choosing you get to see what your Smithy drew before deciding whether to play it again. Because of this Royal Carriage can improve both the consistency of your deck and it's potential payload. If you need to use it on draw cards to get through the deck, fine, if you get through the deck on your own you can use it on a payload action. Storing one on your mat at the end of a turn gives you consistency for the next turn.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 08:29:41 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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markusin

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 09:09:34 pm »
+1

Yeah basically what MiC said, with a hand of just Throne Room and Laboratory, you have to decide whether you risk playing the Lab without TR so you can throne something better or throne the lab and have less Throne Rooms for payload. Royal Carriage lets you play the Lab to see if you draw any actions worth playing again with Royal Carriage.
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sc0UT

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2015, 01:17:32 am »
0

okay wait how do i make it so that the picture is the nice wero one but it's not superhuge and instead zoomable

[img width=pixel ]http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cf/Royal_Carriage.jpg[ /img]

« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 01:19:26 am by sc0UT »
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Chris is me

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2015, 07:42:08 am »
+1

I don't know how people see Throne Room as an awesome card but Royal Carriage as a bad card. The only thing you can't do with Royal Carriage is use it on itself to duplicate an additional card.

It's Throne Room, but you don't need to line up the two cards with each other, and you don't need to decide to play it twice until you've played it once. That's huge.

You don't really even need that many Action cards in your deck for Royal Carriage to be good. It's probably worth it in terminal draw big money even. Plus there's no limit on how many Royal Carriages to play on the same card. The only opportunity cost is a dead card in hand next shuffle, which is a bit of a misnomer because Throne Room takes up that same amount of hand space every shuffle.

There are definitely situations where you would rather Throne Room, and definitely some tricks you can do with Throne Room that you can't do with Royal Carriage, but it should be obvious why Royal Carriage is really, really good.

Quote
do you get carriage in the kingdom of, say, salvager, moneylender, witch, bazaar, carriage, hunting grounds?

totally! I could call Royal Carriage for any one of those cards. Call it on Witch if there are Curses left to give out more. Call it on Hunting Grounds to draw half my deck with one action, especially if I didn't hit a second Bazaar on the first 4 cards. Call it on Salvager several times to trash my hand on the last turn of the game. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 07:45:49 am by Chris is me »
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jomini

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2015, 11:39:52 am »
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I don't know how people see Throne Room as an awesome card but Royal Carriage as a bad card. The only thing you can't do with Royal Carriage is use it on itself to duplicate an additional card.

Price. $4 is cheap, $5 is expensive. You can gain $4 with a lot of really simple card setups (Workshop, Ironworks, Remodeling Estates, etc.) and you can slip in Tr gains really easily. $5 on the other hand has to compete with a whole different tier of Cards. Do I want a Tr instead of Young Witch? Maybe. Yw, after all might be blocked by a reasonable bane (like say Wishing Well) and does not increase hand size (e.g cannot hit $5 without something better than coppers in the deck). Witch on the other hand is sure curse and gives you growth in hand size (better for discard-for-benefit and decks without much garbage to discard). Tr at $4 competes directly with Yw, something it can often beat, Rc at $5 faces stiffer competition like Witch.

That said, Rc is insanely good. It gives you a huge amount of flexibility, reliability, and additional tactical options. I'd often buy it at $6. It is a pretty rare board where I would give it a hard pass (some money boards seem like possibilities).
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Chris is me

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2015, 12:47:43 pm »
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I don't know how people see Throne Room as an awesome card but Royal Carriage as a bad card. The only thing you can't do with Royal Carriage is use it on itself to duplicate an additional card.

Price. $4 is cheap, $5 is expensive. You can gain $4 with a lot of really simple card setups (Workshop, Ironworks, Remodeling Estates, etc.) and you can slip in Tr gains really easily. $5 on the other hand has to compete with a whole different tier of Cards. Do I want a Tr instead of Young Witch? Maybe. Yw, after all might be blocked by a reasonable bane (like say Wishing Well) and does not increase hand size (e.g cannot hit $5 without something better than coppers in the deck). Witch on the other hand is sure curse and gives you growth in hand size (better for discard-for-benefit and decks without much garbage to discard). Tr at $4 competes directly with Yw, something it can often beat, Rc at $5 faces stiffer competition like Witch.

That said, Rc is insanely good. It gives you a huge amount of flexibility, reliability, and additional tactical options. I'd often buy it at $6. It is a pretty rare board where I would give it a hard pass (some money boards seem like possibilities).

Going off this point for a minute, Royal Carriage will consistently be able to copy that $5 anyway. 1 Witch and 1 Royal Carriage is *almost* strictly better than 2 Witches, as they are much less likely to collide with each other. You'll rarely buy RC before another $5, but it's often better than a second copy of that $5 in the absence of an engine.

Can't wait for Adventures to be online, it's gonna be so ridiculous setting these things up.
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jomini

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2015, 12:56:58 pm »
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I don't know how people see Throne Room as an awesome card but Royal Carriage as a bad card. The only thing you can't do with Royal Carriage is use it on itself to duplicate an additional card.

Price. $4 is cheap, $5 is expensive. You can gain $4 with a lot of really simple card setups (Workshop, Ironworks, Remodeling Estates, etc.) and you can slip in Tr gains really easily. $5 on the other hand has to compete with a whole different tier of Cards. Do I want a Tr instead of Young Witch? Maybe. Yw, after all might be blocked by a reasonable bane (like say Wishing Well) and does not increase hand size (e.g cannot hit $5 without something better than coppers in the deck). Witch on the other hand is sure curse and gives you growth in hand size (better for discard-for-benefit and decks without much garbage to discard). Tr at $4 competes directly with Yw, something it can often beat, Rc at $5 faces stiffer competition like Witch.

That said, Rc is insanely good. It gives you a huge amount of flexibility, reliability, and additional tactical options. I'd often buy it at $6. It is a pretty rare board where I would give it a hard pass (some money boards seem like possibilities).

Going off this point for a minute, Royal Carriage will consistently be able to copy that $5 anyway. 1 Witch and 1 Royal Carriage is *almost* strictly better than 2 Witches, as they are much less likely to collide with each other. You'll rarely buy RC before another $5, but it's often better than a second copy of that $5 in the absence of an engine.

Can't wait for Adventures to be online, it's gonna be so ridiculous setting these things up.

Again, not arguing that Rc is bad, but the price point is a bit bigger here. While Rc can duplicate a Witch or a Rabble, has to compete with both. With diminishing rates of return, it is often better to get a second effect than a duplicate of a previous one. The most obvious case is with something like Goons; discard to 3 is strong, but replaying the card just gives $2 +1 buy. Buying a Festival instead is likely better as the +actions let you get more Goons in play. Likewise, Butchering cards is good, but it is vastly stronger to combine Butcher with a cheap gainer (e.g. Explorer) for maximum pay out.

The cards that compete with Tr are $4 and below - not horrid, but Tr lets you double a $5, $6, or $7 ... which is very strong even if you have two effects possible at $4 (e.g. I'd double Witch over taking Yw + Militia on a lot of boards).

Price efficiency is a big thing in Dominion and you need to take card cost into account when gauging a card. Consider Count vs Chapel. Count is on par with Chapel in terms of trashing (can kill 3 cards in the early game, can kill 10 curses in the late game if you don't have lots of unplayable cards), and Count lets you add reliability to your deck, generate $1.5 per card late game, and can function as a +gain to spike duchies. Yet Chapel is massively better because you can get it at $2.

Yes if choosing between Tr and Rc, I will generally take the Rc. But more often I'm looking at getting some $5 effect for the first time or getting a duplicate of one I already have. If Tr is also on the board, that means I will likely get a few of those of $4 or $9 hands so having the optimal effects (e.g. attack, gainer, TfB, draw, +$, reliability) may well see me buy more Tr than Rc.
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mee

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2015, 07:11:13 pm »
+1

i think a big point everyone has missed is that you can chose to royal carriage after you played the first action that gives you tremendous flexibility over tr.
for example lets say you have copper copper estate tr village I would assume the best thing to do is "waste" the tr on the village but with royal carriage you don't need to do that and can wait and see if your village drew a card b4 wasting a rc
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: royal carriage, what?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2015, 08:00:40 pm »
+3

i think a big point everyone has missed is that you can chose to royal carriage after you played the first action that gives you tremendous flexibility over tr.
for example lets say you have copper copper estate tr village I would assume the best thing to do is "waste" the tr on the village but with royal carriage you don't need to do that and can wait and see if your village drew a card b4 wasting a rc

The second and third replies say just that.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 08:01:53 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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