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[Witherweaver]

Alternate strategy: crush her horribly, assert dominance, make her call you alpha.

Also check that you signed a prenup.

[Watno]

I seriously think simply playing the best you can figure out yourself will be enough.

[Idec Sdawkminn]

I'd seriously consider divorce.

Heh, then I'd lose at life, which is an even greater fail.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Very good reads. I particularly liked the Sirlin one. That definitely describes the situation, but it also describes me in some ways as well. When playing Magic, I hate the concept of Net Decking and insist on coming up with my own deck ideas. But instead of complaining about when someone plays against me with a deck they found online, I just make a deck that can beat it. I've definitely encountered some scrubs at my local game shop when I played an Infect deck. One guy actually forfeited the match after one game because of it and treated me like I had greatly insulted him.

When you play Scrabble,  you don't try to spell words incorrectly.

No, but the strategic options in that game are much more limited and a lot of it is based on the luck of the letters you happened to get, so the skill gap is pretty narrow. I think that's actually the point. The more strategy that is involved, the larger the gap can be between us. Wow, that completely explains why she doesn't like to play a lot of strategy games! I thought they just weren't fun for her, but that's not really the case.

You can casually play to the best of your ability without playing optimally. The trick is to silently give yourself some arbitrary limitations to challenge yourself.

This is mainly the type of advice I was hoping for. I like challenging myself. She actually said last night that she doesn't necessarily care about getting better. She just wants to have fun. We play Rummy and Skip-Bo. She likes Ticket To Ride, Uno, and Yahtzee a lot. She beats me at those about as often as I beat her. For her to want to play Dominion seemed like a rare opportunity for me to play a strategy game with her, and I feel like I'm messing that up. So playing my best at a sub-optimal strategy seems like a great way to put a limiter on myself while still playing as best as I can and learning about aspects of the game I maybe wouldn't if I just went for the most efficient engine. I often put limiters on myself like playing through an RPG without buying any weapons or armor, etc. This suggestion was right up my alley, I just didn't think of it. Thanks!

[shark_bait]

If you are skilled enough you could also surreptitiously stack your deck to put both opening buys on T5, ensure that 1 Treasure Map is on top and the other on the bottom, etc...

Ensuring that luck goes against you is another way to even a skill gap.

[Awaclus]

If you are skilled enough you could also surreptitiously stack your deck to put both opening buys on T5, ensure that 1 Treasure Map is on top and the other on the bottom, etc...

Ensuring that luck goes against you is another way to even a skill gap.

Especially on boards where Chancellor + BM is the best strategy.

[shark_bait]

If you are skilled enough you could also surreptitiously stack your deck to put both opening buys on T5, ensure that 1 Treasure Map is on top and the other on the bottom, etc...

Ensuring that luck goes against you is another way to even a skill gap.

Especially on boards where Chancellor + BM is the best strategy.

In that case you'd be best shuffling her deck for her.  Provinces from turn 4 on!

[Beyond Awesome]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

The Sirlin article is a bit condescending, but both get the point across that imposing rules on a game simply because you think it's "cheating" or "dishonorable", even though it's completely within the purview of the game's rules, is silly. I'd recommend reading through them yourself. If you know your wife won't take offense to being called a "scrub" or being told she's being silly, have her read them, too. If not, try to summarize the idea of moving past your current state of affairs. Your trashing and engines may not seem like fun to her now, but maybe you can get her to see past that and try to play to win by any means. That is, any means still allowed by the rules.

Another way could be to use alternate Victory cards, like Gardens, to try to have a different goal in mind while playing.

I just read the sirlin article. The irony is that I think a "scrub" would not agree with it. I think the article is right though. It is hard to play against people who want to "play fun" and hate it when you pull off a crazy KC-mega-turn engine.

[eHalcyon]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

The Sirlin article is a bit condescending, but both get the point across that imposing rules on a game simply because you think it's "cheating" or "dishonorable", even though it's completely within the purview of the game's rules, is silly. I'd recommend reading through them yourself. If you know your wife won't take offense to being called a "scrub" or being told she's being silly, have her read them, too. If not, try to summarize the idea of moving past your current state of affairs. Your trashing and engines may not seem like fun to her now, but maybe you can get her to see past that and try to play to win by any means. That is, any means still allowed by the rules.

Another way could be to use alternate Victory cards, like Gardens, to try to have a different goal in mind while playing.

I just read the sirlin article. The irony is that I think a "scrub" would not agree with it. I think the article is right though. It is hard to play against people who want to "play fun" and hate it when you pull off a crazy KC-mega-turn engine.

That's not irony, that's the point of the article.


I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

[sudgy]

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.

[eHalcyon]

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that Scrabble is on the level of RPS.  If you search, you can find plenty of Scrabble strategy.  Here's a particularly entertaining video I saw a while ago about Scrabble.

[Titandrake]

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that Scrabble is on the level of RPS.  If you search, you can find plenty of Scrabble strategy.  Here's a particularly entertaining video I saw a while ago about Scrabble.

It's unclear which way sudgy meant, but RPS has lots of strategy too if you go by official tournament rules. (Best out of 3 wins a set. Best out of 3 sets wins the match.) With those rulesets, the player who's better at predicting usually wins, because there's enough games to reduce the variance.

Ex. an uninitiated player is more likely to throw the thing that beats what they just lost to. So if you win with rock vs scissors, playing scissors tends to be better because they'll tend to play paper. And rock is slightly more likely than paper, which is slightly more likely than scissors. And if you play someone who knows these trends, then you need to guess what level to play at and only get ~1 second to make a decision for it. Which then has it's own rule: people who aren't sure default to rock because they don't need to change their hand position, meaning you can abuse this with paper.

etc etc, yomi, WIFOM, whatever you want to call it.

[Eevee]

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that Scrabble is on the level of RPS.  If you search, you can find plenty of Scrabble strategy.  Here's a particularly entertaining video I saw a while ago about Scrabble.

It's unclear which way sudgy meant, but RPS has lots of strategy too if you go by official tournament rules. (Best out of 3 wins a set. Best out of 3 sets wins the match.) With those rulesets, the player who's better at predicting usually wins, because there's enough games to reduce the variance.

Ex. an uninitiated player is more likely to throw the thing that beats what they just lost to. So if you win with rock vs scissors, playing scissors tends to be better because they'll tend to play paper. And rock is slightly more likely than paper, which is slightly more likely than scissors. And if you play someone who knows these trends, then you need to guess what level to play at and only get ~1 second to make a decision for it. Which then has it's own rule: people who aren't sure default to rock because they don't need to change their hand position, meaning you can abuse this with paper.

etc etc, yomi, WIFOM, whatever you want to call it.

Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.

The RPS  bots online are totally scary though if you do not cheat and randomize. It's crazy how hard it is for humans to be truly random without any external help.

[XerxesPraelor]

yomi doesn't really count as strategy - it's basically strategy on the same level of memorization - a particular skill that can be fun to use, but is relatively separate from the real strategy of a game.

[Donald X.]

Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.

An iterative rock-paper-scissors tournament is extremely skill-testing (see: http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/rsbpc.html). Playing randomly (difficult for most humans to do) does not win for you.

I have made games that were pure iterative dilemmas. The best player doesn't just always win; they always crush you. There's no hope of playing randomly and tying.

Even a single throw of rock-paper-scissors against a single live opponent is skill-testing. There it's psychology and culture without the history analysis.

[popsofctown]

My experience has been that yomi games test talent that comes from genetics (and formative childhood experiences etc) more so than (other?) skills.  Players that are good at them seem to dominate all of them, and don't need several years of practice at them to start dominating.

[Aleimon Thimble]

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I'd put it even more strongly. Scrabble has a REALLY small luck factor, a LOT smaller than Dominion can ever dream to have. It's more on the level of Agricola, luck-wise - just a tiny smidgen above pure strategy games such as Chess.

[ancientcampus]

Some people are going to recommend handicapping yourself or something like that, but I feel that is worse than just always winning.

Yup. If you find yourself outstripping everyone to the point it's not fun for them, then I'm in the pro-handicap tent.

[Roadrunner7671]

I play with my mother quite a lot, and I will say that I am much better than her. She just likes to play and is a great sport, so I have never had your problem. However, here is what I would recommend:
1. Let her pick the kingdom. She can pick cards that she wants to play with and that will not give you a great engine option.
2. Try new things. Do you want to see if Woodcutter is better than Workshop for Gardens? Go for it! Not sure if Mine works with Moneylender? Why don't you try? Even if your strategies are suboptimal, you will still (hopefully) enjoy yourself.
3. Play with Council Room and any other cards that give advantages to your opponent.
4. DO NOT lay it on thick. Single Province per turn is fine. Play BM/Smithy with a Chapel or something. Do not make a Council Room engine and have a Milita at the end.
5. Don't count points. It's really up to you, but not counting points makes the game more relaxed for both of you.
6. If you have bad luck (terminal collision, no village and three draw cards, etc.) get sort of upset and say that maybe your strategy isn't working and possibly shift into something more similar to her strategy (like buying a Thief).
7. If attack cards are ignorable, ignore them.
8. Say 'good game' in an honest tone and imply that you are happy to be playing with her.
9. If you want to open Silver/Silver or maybe Woodcutter/Silver and she is going first, do what she does so that she'll feel confident and better about her strategy.
10. Play games that she is better at than you besides Dominion. Ticket to Ride is a great one that you mentioned.
That's all I have, I hope that your Dominion experience will get better based off of these!

[Dingan]

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

[gkrieg13]

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

Couldn't you only pass 5 provinces?

[drsteelhammer]

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

Couldn't you only pass 5 provinces?

Pass her a King's court

[Beyond Awesome]

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

So, that's what a marriage test is. Well, if someday I find someone I will have to try this out. Okay, not really, but I literally lol'd at this.

[Twistedarcher]

Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.

An iterative rock-paper-scissors tournament is extremely skill-testing (see: http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/rsbpc.html). Playing randomly (difficult for most humans to do) does not win for you.

I have made games that were pure iterative dilemmas. The best player doesn't just always win; they always crush you. There's no hope of playing randomly and tying.

Even a single throw of rock-paper-scissors against a single live opponent is skill-testing. There it's psychology and culture without the history analysis.

How is it possible to beat a purely random strategy? Are these programs taking advantage of the difficulty to truly randomize? I can't wrap my head around how this is possible.

[eHalcyon]

Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.

An iterative rock-paper-scissors tournament is extremely skill-testing (see: http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/rsbpc.html). Playing randomly (difficult for most humans to do) does not win for you.

I have made games that were pure iterative dilemmas. The best player doesn't just always win; they always crush you. There's no hope of playing randomly and tying.

Even a single throw of rock-paper-scissors against a single live opponent is skill-testing. There it's psychology and culture without the history analysis.

How is it possible to beat a purely random strategy? Are these programs taking advantage of the difficulty to truly randomize? I can't wrap my head around how this is possible.

I don't see anything suggesting that they do beat pure random.  As far as I can tell, the competition was between the submitted bots, so the winner is whichever non-random program is best able to beat all the other non-random programs.  A pure random competitor should theoretically draw against every opponent, but a strong non-random bot can do better than draw against all the weak non-random bots.


I stand by my statement that RPS isn't strategic.  I can acknowledge that there is skill involved when playing against non-random opponents (as is always the case in practice) but it's not what I would consider to be strategy.  Or at the least, it's not the same kind of strategy as you'd employ in a game like Chess or Dominion or Scrabble.  Yomi is the term, I guess, and I put that in a separate box.

[AdamH]

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

Couldn't you only pass 5 provinces?

Pass her a King's court

You only have five non-Province cards to pass her before your hand is all Provinces. It will take multiple turns. PPE: or of course you can just throw in Expedition