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Idec Sdawkminn

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Play badly or risk not playing?
« on: September 09, 2015, 10:21:59 pm »
+4

Hey there. So last year I bought Dominion for my wife since it was the best game for 2 players on her Christmas list (others were Ticket To Ride and Munchkin). I was happy because she's not a huge fan of my favorite game, 7 Wonders, because she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun with the people she is playing with. I had played Dominion once with my friends and she had played it thrice before. We finally opened it the other night since most other nights we were binge watching shows. Well, we played several games, enjoying it quite a bit. I won most of the games, but she found out she really likes the Witch and beat me with it.

The problem is, neither of us caught onto the possibilities of the cards or the limitations of Coppers. Chapel? Yeah, maybe if the other player has a Witch and you want to get rid of the Curses. What good is it otherwise? We considered it one of the worst cards in the game. She always bought an Estate when she couldn't afford anything else, bought a Copper whenever she couldn't afford that, and always used extra buys on Coppers. If I played Thief and took one of her Coppers, I'd be happy and she'd be bummed. Then she'd do the same to me. It was completely backwards, but we were having fun. We never trashed anything and got huge, bloated decks with lots of terminal collision and the games took a while.

After the first game, which we played as the recommended first game, I looked at the cards of that kingdom to see what I could have done better and the Village and Smithy stood out to me. I immediately thought of buying a bunch of those. "That would be insane!" I thought. But none of the other randomly-generated kingdoms we played after that contained any Villages, and the one that had a Festival didn't have any draw that I remember, so I didn't get to try it out.

So then, like I do when I get into something, I went online to read some strategy and naturally came upon this site. Using Chapel to trash all your opening cards once you get a Silver? How could that possibly be good? Wouldn't you just have a bunch of hands without any money? Wait, but without those opening cards, you only have the cards you bought, which is hardly any by that point. So you draw that Silver and remaining coppers all the time, then other Silvers you bought, and... (mind blown). My wife knew I had read about it online and she was immediately disappointed. That meant I'd get much better at a much faster rate than she would and it wouldn't be fun anymore. She doesn't like reading strategy articles and for the most part, doesn't like thinking about the game when she's not sitting down to play it.

Well, next time we played there was a Village and Smithy and I tried out my previous idea, combined with Chapeling and I completely dominated. She said, kind of tragically, "Well, I guess you found a better way to play." When we brought it to my parents' house and introduced my mom and brother-in-law to it, we played First Kingdom again and I made another Village/Smithy/Market/Militia engine. My turns took a lot longer than everyone else's and with most of my Actions being Village, Smithy, or Market, it seemed to my wife that I was just doing a bunch of pointless Actions that didn't amount to anything or benefit me in any way. I even ended the game by Remodeling a Province when there were 2 left, then buying the last one. To her that seemed like a jerk move. That's not the way to have fun. That's the way to win at any cost.

She still wants to play, but I fear that she will want to less and less if I keep playing this way. I think to her, she thought it was the kind of game that was meant to be played the way she and her friends played it, and if it turns out that it is the kind of game that is meant to be played how I do, she won't like it much anymore. I think she feels like I'm finding loopholes in the rules that weren't meant to be exploited, like finding a glitch in a video game that lets you skip to the last level instead of playing through the whole game like how you are supposed to. I don't know if she will want to learn how to play it better. I've already told her about the BM strategy and she didn't like the sound of that, either. I don't want to keep playing in a way that she will view as me just being difficult and almost cheating, when, in her mind, things would be so much better and more fun if I just played it like everyone else she knows and not always trying to be different and disrupting the status quo.

Of course, this could just be me over-analyzing and making a mountain out of a mole hill and maybe she would really like to know a better way to play. Has anyone encountered a similar situation? What happened and how did it go?
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2015, 10:36:27 pm »
+13

The hardest part of Dominion strategy: How do I play casually without upsetting casual players?

Honestly, I don't think she has the right attitude about the game if she's considering good strategies in poor taste, but it is what it is. People approach the game in all kinds of ways. Unfortunately, there are a lot of players who see the long turns from better players as 'non-interactive,' even though sometimes they also have such long turns and could be learning how to play efficient engines too. I have seen the same thing as you have happen when playing Dominion with others, even online. Some people don't enjoy competing, adapting to new play styles, or thinking hard about the games they play. It says something for the game that they can still enjoy Dominion in spite of not caring about the strategy. I have even encountered players who were surprised a competitive community existed at all because the game seemed so random to them. I don't have any (good) advice for you. Some people are going to recommend handicapping yourself or something like that, but I feel that is worse than just always winning. The issue is ultimately your wife's attitude about it (Not saying she's being unreasonable, she just has no reason to think about the game the way you/we do), not yours, so there is no good reason to make such a compromise.

I hate to say it but you may just have to look to other games and play Dominion with her sparingly. Maybe try some cooperative ones; Hanabi is fun. I can tell you from experience it's not fun making your partner angry because you beat them at a game and being in a dumb fight about something so ultimately unimportant; I've been there.
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yuma

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2015, 10:48:04 pm »
+1

This advice only works if you have other expansions, which I recommend anyways... But with other expansions you become automatically handicapped when learning new cards. And then when you have a better grasp of cards you can try zannier strategies that will sometimes work and sometimes utterly fail. Zannier strategies don't really exist with just base because of the limited options.

I would also say that playing 3-4 player games tend to mitigate the issue you are talking about to a slight extent. Or as a last resort you can use the equivalent of the online "zaps" to boost her deck from the start with a silver instead of a copper from the outset or other similar zaps if she is ok with the idea that she needs a head start.

But really the game gets better with more expansions, but if she doesn't like the game an expansion might be tough to sell to her.
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werothegreat

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2015, 11:48:18 pm »
+1

The thing about adding expansions for a more casual player is that a lot of the (relatively) newer cards put a more (from a casual perspective) obvious emphasis on "good" play, and some even reward the sillier plays.  It sounds like the best set to add would be Prosperity.  Anyone who likes buying Coppers with extra Buys is going to love Goons.  She likes Witch, Mountebank is Witch on steroids.  King's Court, Grand Market, Peddler, Worker's Village - these all encourage you to build ridiculous engines, particularly when Colonies are added.
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Idec Sdawkminn

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2015, 12:23:16 am »
0

Thanks for the replies so far. It is good to not be alone in this. I do eventually want to get all the expansions, but I was going to go in order. I actually almost got Intrigue yesterday, but with school starting, our kids are needing a lot of supplies, so I'm holding off until we can be sure we can afford everything.

Regarding buying Coppers, I don't think it is necessarily something she likes doing. It just seems intuitively beneficial to her. It did to me, too, until I understood the concept of deck density. And I think it is easier for me to overcome my initial intuitions. I'm used to considering that I may be wrong about something. From a Myers-Briggs standpoint, I'm an ESTP and she's most likely an ISTJ.

Well, she wants to play tonight, and she brought it up, so I guess that's a good sign. And I can't really complain too much. I did get her into Doctor Who finally. It took a long time.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2015, 12:26:32 am »
0

Maybe try some cooperative ones; Hanabi is fun.

This. Hanabi accounts for probably 80% of the games I play IRL because for some reason, the other players don't seem to mind losing as much when I lose as well.
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Idec Sdawkminn

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2015, 12:52:22 am »
+1

Maybe try some cooperative ones; Hanabi is fun.

This. Hanabi accounts for probably 80% of the games I play IRL because for some reason, the other players don't seem to mind losing as much when I lose as well.
Gah, the purples and blues look the same to me on the pictures!

But Hanabi seems like something she would really have a lot of fun with.

Update: So I talked to her some more about it tonight. We played another game and finally Laboratories were available (this is the first game they have come up). So the kingdom was Cellar, Chapel, Village, Workshop, Militia, Moneylender, Witch, Market, Laboratory, and Council Room. I was sitting there looking at the cards while she got her snacks and she said, "Don't just sit there and look at the cards!" because she was already dreading me coming up with some elaborate strategy and she could tell I was already hatching one. She said she just looks at them when she is trying to pick which card to buy. And she also said that I always beat her at every game we play, so me going online to get even better would just widen the gap between us that much more. And I agree to an extent, because it was really fun when we were both learning it together while playing it and both making all kinds of mistakes.

So I opened with Chapel and Silver on a 3/4 and she opened with Moneylender and Silver. I then trashed 3 Coppers and she rolled her eyes. I bought a Cellar with the remaining Silver. I bought a Market, then a Laboratory, some Silvers and Golds, more Markets, a couple Villages, then some Council Rooms since I needed a little more draw now that I was able to buy 1-2 Provinces per turn. I was drawing my deck a little more often than every other turn, and had to trash some Silvers to make it more consistent, leaving me with $17, including the Market money bonus. She bought a Militia that she never got to draw and used a Witch on me once. The Curse was easily trashed with Actions to spare and I was still able to draw my deck that turn, so it didn't affect me. I didn't buy a Witch because it wouldn't slow her deck down much and I didn't buy a Militia because doing one of those every turn would just make the game miserable for her.

I ended up with only 4 Provinces and she had the other 4, along with all 3 of her starting Estates. I was glad that she won, because that seems like losing the battle for the sake of the war. I was also experimenting, and this seems like a good time to experiment with things that may not work, especially if she is going to win when I do. I talked to her about maybe reading some of the strategy articles online and she said she doesn't learn by reading or hearing very well. She has to learn by doing. She also said she doesn't like the way I play because she doesn't like having a bunch of cards in her hand or in play at once. She likes doing 1, 2, or maybe 3 Actions per turn, then buying something.

But, she still wants to play regularly and with my family who also love card/board games, so that's good. I was thinking of having her watch Adam Horton's videos. Maybe those will help.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 03:03:15 am by Idec Sdawkminn »
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xyz123

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2015, 02:40:33 am »
0

I have seen similar thing with some, but not all, of the people I play games with IRL. My local games shop also runs a games club and there are people there who will only play with their own Dominion house rules such as you can only play a maximum of 3 action cards per turn or you cannot reshuffle mid-turn.

I agree with the suggestion regarding Prosperity, as that will exaggerate the fact that Coppers are bad. I disagree with the Mountebank comments though. In my experience, people who still take Coppers with additional buys tend to dismiss it as a weak card.

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2015, 04:01:23 am »
+1

Maybe you could explain to her WHY are the coppers bad in most cases?

Here is a nice old article on that topic:
http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/02/27/the-keys-to-big-money-money-density-and-opportunity-cost/

Beyond Awesome

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2015, 08:39:09 am »
+1

My mom has the same attitude. I can't really play Dominion with her anymore.

Learning a new expansion, even for experienced players, does put a handicap. Adventures was recently released, and I feel there are many cards I have a very limited grasp on.

I think Intrigue is a good next step in your case. My mom loves Intrigue, and the cards are pretty simple. There are some nasty attacks in Intrigue though, so she might get upset if you use these attacks in a very competitive fashion though. Ironically, Mountebank (and Goons) is the strongest attack in the game, and yet because of the copper gaining, many inexperienced players don't think it hurts them as much as say Witch.

Anyway, I think if you get Intrigue and then move up to Seaside and then Prosperity, you will be in good shape. Feel free to save Alchemy for later.

Also, if your wife doesn't want to get better, I wouldn't push it on her. You can also try playing Online. Your wife might not like it, but it gives you a chance to play against players at a similar playing level as you. The huge downside though is that you and your wife will likely never be able to play Dominion again.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 08:48:31 am by Beyond Awesome »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2015, 08:54:39 am »
+18

I'd seriously consider divorce.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2015, 09:02:45 am »
0

I'd seriously consider divorce.

That's an option as well.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2015, 09:30:27 am »
+2

I think this all has more to do with marriage and people than it does with the mechanics of Dominion.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2015, 09:59:56 am »
+3

There is no way I'd play badly on purpose. And by badly, i mean intentionally avoiding good play. It's one thing to try experimental strategies or long shots but another to avoid trashing coppers or buying Estates on $2 turns. The fact is, once I know better that isn't fun and fun is the point in playing.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2015, 10:50:07 am »
+4

I have a similar situation that happened to my gaming group about a year ago now.

The 3 of us started playing dominion early on, blind without even really reading the rules.  It didn't occur to us that the money on the militia meant +2 coins and not gain a silver, same with market but with copper.  Needless to say we had huge decks and we didn't stop the game until all of the green was bought.  The game took forever but it was so much fun and we eventually started playing within the rules.

What was really nice was we played one night a week maybe 3-4 games.  All 3 of us progressed at the same level.  Every couple months one of us would show up with a newly bought expansion.  We would then discover the cards and their power levels/combos together.  Everything was great!

Then around the time dark ages came out I started reading dominion strategy.  Then I started playing online.  I jumped far beyond them in skill.  They didn't have the desire to progress at the same speed and it turned from a group passion, to both of them dreading playing against me because I had read every card article and played hundreds of games online.

However it was fun while it lasted and think its a little different then the situation you have because you might be progressing a little faster then I did and your wife might be progressing a little slower then my friends did.  We still play from time to time and its mostly still fun. 

Something I would suggest is to design boards that force a more evenly matched game.  Craft a board with a weaker engine.  Don't play poorly on purpose, never do that.  I'm not even saying play a obviously weaker strategy.  When you have more expansions you can make kingdoms where the engine is the correct way to go however its hard to get there.  Example, if the only village is tribute, or a herald engine with only trade route as a trasher.  You can still make the games competitive and increase your knowledge of the game while keeping her in the game as well.  However if you keep playing kingdoms with wharf, fishing village, junk dealer, and butcher together your wife is going to lose interest haha.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2015, 11:29:21 am »
+4

If you mainly want to play with your wife, I think it might be a good idea to stop reading about strategy. That doesn't mean stopping to try playing well, but it puts you in a more even position. If you figure out something new, she'll see it, and the other way around.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2015, 11:34:58 am »
0

I've tried to lose against people to whom I'm teaching the game, and have been unsuccessful so far. Seriously, I'll always open Village, then just buy random crap without trying to go too far (I don't buy Coppers and Curses and Estates). Yet I still end up winning.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2015, 11:42:49 am »
+1

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

The Sirlin article is a bit condescending, but both get the point across that imposing rules on a game simply because you think it's "cheating" or "dishonorable", even though it's completely within the purview of the game's rules, is silly. I'd recommend reading through them yourself. If you know your wife won't take offense to being called a "scrub" or being told she's being silly, have her read them, too. If not, try to summarize the idea of moving past your current state of affairs. Your trashing and engines may not seem like fun to her now, but maybe you can get her to see past that and try to play to win by any means. That is, any means still allowed by the rules.

Another way could be to use alternate Victory cards, like Gardens, to try to have a different goal in mind while playing.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2015, 11:46:44 am »
+11

If you know your wife won't take offense to being called a "scrub" or being told she's being silly, have her read them, too.

You're not married, are you wero?
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2015, 11:46:54 am »
+3

When you play Scrabble,  you don't try to spell words incorrectly.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2015, 11:49:28 am »
+7

I was thinking of having her watch Adam Horton's videos. Maybe those will help.

+1 for this, <3

Seriously, though, if your wife wants to get better like you and reading doesn't do it for her, videos are something that are totally worth trying. Live streams may scratch that itch if videos don't. I think it's important that she find someone she likes listening to and can relate to, so if that isn't me, maybe someone else will suffice.


I'd seriously consider divorce.

As a newlywed, I am deeply offended that this comment got so many upvotes.


I'll offer some of my perspective, I guess...

I've played Dominion with my wife before, I play most games competitively which she really doesn't enjoy, so very few games have worked out that we (she) enjoys playing together. Some people just don't like to play competitive games, so if you enjoy that aspect of Dominion (like I do) then playing Dominion with her may just be a recipe for at least one of you to not be having fun. I'd like to think that since you married her, there are things you can do together that you both enjoy, so pushing Dominion may cause more harm here.

And there are plenty of other games that aren't competitive. Hanabi has been mentioned (my wife loves that) but there are the "creative" games, mostly party games, as well. Apples to Apples and similar games work, Pictionary and those kinds of things, there are some party games too that my competitive-gamer friends actually enjoy playing like Say Anything and Wits and Wagers. There are plenty of options out there.

In my group, I think a lot of people are intimidated to play Dominion with me. That's fine, those people seem to have played it several years ago and dismissed it for (clearly incorrect) reasons. But then there are some that get more into it and want to be competitive. They may or may not read about it online or watch videos, but they are good, want to get better, and don't mind losing to me because they know it makes them better, plus they get bragging rights when they win. If I had the choice (which I do), I'd prefer to play with these people often and have good, competitive games -- it is possible to be a lot better than the people you play with and still play a lot and have everyone enjoy themselves, it just takes a certain type of person.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2015, 12:06:10 pm »
+5

I recall a game with a friend who was newish and Ambassador was in the kingdom. Initally looking over the cards he picked it up and said something like, "Why in the world would you ever want to give another player your cards". I gave him the correct answer and he seemed dubious so I told him that I would proceed to destroy him with the card in that game. I remember Market and Grand Market were in the kingdom as was Throne Room. He began thanking me for every copper and Estate I passed him until I started buying up the obvious unstoppable engine and piling out those cards and then the Provinces while he never put together a $5 hand. He took that as a valuable learning experience and appreciated the defeat as such. This is the mindset of a competitive Dominion player. I don't think OP's wife has the mindset of a competitive Dominion player and thus the game is probably not going to appeal to her even if she were to begin learning the better strategies.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2015, 01:00:26 pm »
+4


I'd seriously consider divorce.

As a newlywed, I am deeply offended that this comment got so many upvotes.

I'm pretty sure Mic was just trolling and this isn't serious :).
I actually have the same problem. Started playing with my wife (back at that time GF), got pretty hooked with the stuff, read about strategies on the web, found Isotropic, found WW's videos. Soon after we played less until we stopped. So we eventually switched to other games. Race for the Galaxy is pretty nice, too ;)
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2015, 01:07:33 pm »
+2

You can casually play to the best of your ability without playing optimally. The trick is to silently give yourself some arbitrary limitations to challenge yourself.

Often when I'm playing with my partner, I'll see a few strategies on the board, and I won't pick the best one, but I'll play the alternate strategy to the best of my ability. I treat the game as more of an experiment than a competition - can I get a Woodcutter / Gardens deck to beat Smithy BM even if they have tons of support? Alternately ill challenge myself by not buying a certain card - can I build a draw engine without Library? This keeps you challenged and mentally engaged while also handicapping yourself.

In any case, when playing with people worse than you at the game I like to explain my pre-game thoughts out loud as to what cards are important and the advantages of particular strategies.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2015, 01:07:41 pm »
+5

Alternate strategy: crush her horribly, assert dominance, make her call you alpha.

Also check that you signed a prenup.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2015, 01:14:43 pm »
0

I seriously think simply playing the best you can figure out yourself will be enough.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2015, 01:38:38 pm »
+1

I'd seriously consider divorce.
Heh, then I'd lose at life, which is an even greater fail.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
Very good reads. I particularly liked the Sirlin one. That definitely describes the situation, but it also describes me in some ways as well. When playing Magic, I hate the concept of Net Decking and insist on coming up with my own deck ideas. But instead of complaining about when someone plays against me with a deck they found online, I just make a deck that can beat it. I've definitely encountered some scrubs at my local game shop when I played an Infect deck. One guy actually forfeited the match after one game because of it and treated me like I had greatly insulted him.

When you play Scrabble,  you don't try to spell words incorrectly.
No, but the strategic options in that game are much more limited and a lot of it is based on the luck of the letters you happened to get, so the skill gap is pretty narrow. I think that's actually the point. The more strategy that is involved, the larger the gap can be between us. Wow, that completely explains why she doesn't like to play a lot of strategy games! I thought they just weren't fun for her, but that's not really the case.

You can casually play to the best of your ability without playing optimally. The trick is to silently give yourself some arbitrary limitations to challenge yourself.
This is mainly the type of advice I was hoping for. I like challenging myself. She actually said last night that she doesn't necessarily care about getting better. She just wants to have fun. We play Rummy and Skip-Bo. She likes Ticket To Ride, Uno, and Yahtzee a lot. She beats me at those about as often as I beat her. For her to want to play Dominion seemed like a rare opportunity for me to play a strategy game with her, and I feel like I'm messing that up. So playing my best at a sub-optimal strategy seems like a great way to put a limiter on myself while still playing as best as I can and learning about aspects of the game I maybe wouldn't if I just went for the most efficient engine. I often put limiters on myself like playing through an RPG without buying any weapons or armor, etc. This suggestion was right up my alley, I just didn't think of it. Thanks!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 01:44:12 pm by Idec Sdawkminn »
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2015, 02:32:24 pm »
+1

If you are skilled enough you could also surreptitiously stack your deck to put both opening buys on T5, ensure that 1 Treasure Map is on top and the other on the bottom, etc...

Ensuring that luck goes against you is another way to even a skill gap.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2015, 02:38:42 pm »
+1

If you are skilled enough you could also surreptitiously stack your deck to put both opening buys on T5, ensure that 1 Treasure Map is on top and the other on the bottom, etc...

Ensuring that luck goes against you is another way to even a skill gap.

Especially on boards where Chancellor + BM is the best strategy.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2015, 02:43:25 pm »
0

If you are skilled enough you could also surreptitiously stack your deck to put both opening buys on T5, ensure that 1 Treasure Map is on top and the other on the bottom, etc...

Ensuring that luck goes against you is another way to even a skill gap.

Especially on boards where Chancellor + BM is the best strategy.

In that case you'd be best shuffling her deck for her.  Provinces from turn 4 on!
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2015, 08:46:50 am »
0

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

The Sirlin article is a bit condescending, but both get the point across that imposing rules on a game simply because you think it's "cheating" or "dishonorable", even though it's completely within the purview of the game's rules, is silly. I'd recommend reading through them yourself. If you know your wife won't take offense to being called a "scrub" or being told she's being silly, have her read them, too. If not, try to summarize the idea of moving past your current state of affairs. Your trashing and engines may not seem like fun to her now, but maybe you can get her to see past that and try to play to win by any means. That is, any means still allowed by the rules.

Another way could be to use alternate Victory cards, like Gardens, to try to have a different goal in mind while playing.

I just read the sirlin article. The irony is that I think a "scrub" would not agree with it. I think the article is right though. It is hard to play against people who want to "play fun" and hate it when you pull off a crazy KC-mega-turn engine.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2015, 01:12:23 pm »
+2

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

The Sirlin article is a bit condescending, but both get the point across that imposing rules on a game simply because you think it's "cheating" or "dishonorable", even though it's completely within the purview of the game's rules, is silly. I'd recommend reading through them yourself. If you know your wife won't take offense to being called a "scrub" or being told she's being silly, have her read them, too. If not, try to summarize the idea of moving past your current state of affairs. Your trashing and engines may not seem like fun to her now, but maybe you can get her to see past that and try to play to win by any means. That is, any means still allowed by the rules.

Another way could be to use alternate Victory cards, like Gardens, to try to have a different goal in mind while playing.

I just read the sirlin article. The irony is that I think a "scrub" would not agree with it. I think the article is right though. It is hard to play against people who want to "play fun" and hate it when you pull off a crazy KC-mega-turn engine.

That's not irony, that's the point of the article.


I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2015, 09:26:28 pm »
+2

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2015, 11:44:15 pm »
+1

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that Scrabble is on the level of RPS.  If you search, you can find plenty of Scrabble strategy.  Here's a particularly entertaining video I saw a while ago about Scrabble.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2015, 12:36:18 am »
+1

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that Scrabble is on the level of RPS.  If you search, you can find plenty of Scrabble strategy.  Here's a particularly entertaining video I saw a while ago about Scrabble.

It's unclear which way sudgy meant, but RPS has lots of strategy too if you go by official tournament rules. (Best out of 3 wins a set. Best out of 3 sets wins the match.) With those rulesets, the player who's better at predicting usually wins, because there's enough games to reduce the variance.

Ex. an uninitiated player is more likely to throw the thing that beats what they just lost to. So if you win with rock vs scissors, playing scissors tends to be better because they'll tend to play paper. And rock is slightly more likely than paper, which is slightly more likely than scissors. And if you play someone who knows these trends, then you need to guess what level to play at and only get ~1 second to make a decision for it. Which then has it's own rule: people who aren't sure default to rock because they don't need to change their hand position, meaning you can abuse this with paper.

etc etc, yomi, WIFOM, whatever you want to call it.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2015, 08:00:55 am »
0

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I love telling people that there's a lot of strategy in Rock Paper Scissors.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest that Scrabble is on the level of RPS.  If you search, you can find plenty of Scrabble strategy.  Here's a particularly entertaining video I saw a while ago about Scrabble.

It's unclear which way sudgy meant, but RPS has lots of strategy too if you go by official tournament rules. (Best out of 3 wins a set. Best out of 3 sets wins the match.) With those rulesets, the player who's better at predicting usually wins, because there's enough games to reduce the variance.

Ex. an uninitiated player is more likely to throw the thing that beats what they just lost to. So if you win with rock vs scissors, playing scissors tends to be better because they'll tend to play paper. And rock is slightly more likely than paper, which is slightly more likely than scissors. And if you play someone who knows these trends, then you need to guess what level to play at and only get ~1 second to make a decision for it. Which then has it's own rule: people who aren't sure default to rock because they don't need to change their hand position, meaning you can abuse this with paper.

etc etc, yomi, WIFOM, whatever you want to call it.
Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.

The RPS  bots online are totally scary though if you do not cheat and randomize. It's crazy how hard it is for humans to be truly random without any external help.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2015, 11:10:05 am »
+1

yomi doesn't really count as strategy - it's basically strategy on the same level of memorization - a particular skill that can be fun to use, but is relatively separate from the real strategy of a game.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2015, 02:08:10 pm »
+1

Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.
An iterative rock-paper-scissors tournament is extremely skill-testing (see: http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/rsbpc.html). Playing randomly (difficult for most humans to do) does not win for you.

I have made games that were pure iterative dilemmas. The best player doesn't just always win; they always crush you. There's no hope of playing randomly and tying.

Even a single throw of rock-paper-scissors against a single live opponent is skill-testing. There it's psychology and culture without the history analysis.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2015, 04:44:45 pm »
+1

My experience has been that yomi games test talent that comes from genetics (and formative childhood experiences etc) more so than (other?) skills.  Players that are good at them seem to dominate all of them, and don't need several years of practice at them to start dominating.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2015, 02:25:28 pm »
0

I don't really have any advice, but it should be noted that there is actually a lot of strategy in Scrabble and luck plays a surprisingly small factor in high level competition.  There's a lot more hand management and controlling the board (e.g. being aware of when triple word spaces open up).

I'd put it even more strongly. Scrabble has a REALLY small luck factor, a LOT smaller than Dominion can ever dream to have. It's more on the level of Agricola, luck-wise - just a tiny smidgen above pure strategy games such as Chess.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2015, 05:38:02 pm »
0

Some people are going to recommend handicapping yourself or something like that, but I feel that is worse than just always winning.
Yup. If you find yourself outstripping everyone to the point it's not fun for them, then I'm in the pro-handicap tent.

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2015, 05:57:14 pm »
+1

I play with my mother quite a lot, and I will say that I am much better than her. She just likes to play and is a great sport, so I have never had your problem. However, here is what I would recommend:
1. Let her pick the kingdom. She can pick cards that she wants to play with and that will not give you a great engine option.
2. Try new things. Do you want to see if Woodcutter is better than Workshop for Gardens? Go for it! Not sure if Mine works with Moneylender? Why don't you try? Even if your strategies are suboptimal, you will still (hopefully) enjoy yourself.
3. Play with Council Room and any other cards that give advantages to your opponent.
4. DO NOT lay it on thick. Single Province per turn is fine. Play BM/Smithy with a Chapel or something. Do not make a Council Room engine and have a Milita at the end.
5. Don't count points. It's really up to you, but not counting points makes the game more relaxed for both of you.
6. If you have bad luck (terminal collision, no village and three draw cards, etc.) get sort of upset and say that maybe your strategy isn't working and possibly shift into something more similar to her strategy (like buying a Thief).
7. If attack cards are ignorable, ignore them.
8. Say 'good game' in an honest tone and imply that you are happy to be playing with her.
9. If you want to open Silver/Silver or maybe Woodcutter/Silver and she is going first, do what she does so that she'll feel confident and better about her strategy.
10. Play games that she is better at than you besides Dominion. Ticket to Ride is a great one that you mentioned.
That's all I have, I hope that your Dominion experience will get better based off of these!
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2015, 08:14:07 pm »
+6

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 08:31:40 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2015, 08:48:21 pm »
0

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

Couldn't you only pass 5 provinces?
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2015, 08:55:49 pm »
0

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

Couldn't you only pass 5 provinces?

Pass her a King's court
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2015, 11:46:22 pm »
0

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

So, that's what a marriage test is. Well, if someday I find someone I will have to try this out. Okay, not really, but I literally lol'd at this.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2015, 12:30:00 am »
+1

Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.
An iterative rock-paper-scissors tournament is extremely skill-testing (see: http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/rsbpc.html). Playing randomly (difficult for most humans to do) does not win for you.

I have made games that were pure iterative dilemmas. The best player doesn't just always win; they always crush you. There's no hope of playing randomly and tying.

Even a single throw of rock-paper-scissors against a single live opponent is skill-testing. There it's psychology and culture without the history analysis.

How is it possible to beat a purely random strategy? Are these programs taking advantage of the difficulty to truly randomize? I can't wrap my head around how this is possible.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2015, 02:37:17 am »
+2

Until someone randomizes their selections with their watch or something, and it's a coinflip again.
An iterative rock-paper-scissors tournament is extremely skill-testing (see: http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/rsbpc.html). Playing randomly (difficult for most humans to do) does not win for you.

I have made games that were pure iterative dilemmas. The best player doesn't just always win; they always crush you. There's no hope of playing randomly and tying.

Even a single throw of rock-paper-scissors against a single live opponent is skill-testing. There it's psychology and culture without the history analysis.

How is it possible to beat a purely random strategy? Are these programs taking advantage of the difficulty to truly randomize? I can't wrap my head around how this is possible.

I don't see anything suggesting that they do beat pure random.  As far as I can tell, the competition was between the submitted bots, so the winner is whichever non-random program is best able to beat all the other non-random programs.  A pure random competitor should theoretically draw against every opponent, but a strong non-random bot can do better than draw against all the weak non-random bots.


I stand by my statement that RPS isn't strategic.  I can acknowledge that there is skill involved when playing against non-random opponents (as is always the case in practice) but it's not what I would consider to be strategy.  Or at the least, it's not the same kind of strategy as you'd employ in a game like Chess or Dominion or Scrabble.  Yomi is the term, I guess, and I put that in a separate box.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 02:42:04 am by eHalcyon »
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2015, 06:58:00 am »
0

she doesn't like games where she has to think a lot and would rather just have fun

So... why Dominion?

But in all seriousness... just wait until she has 7 Provinces, then KC-KC-Possession-Possession-Possession, and Masquerade yourself all the green.  If she stays with you, then you're marriage can make it through anything.

Couldn't you only pass 5 provinces?

Pass her a King's court

You only have five non-Province cards to pass her before your hand is all Provinces. It will take multiple turns. PPE: or of course you can just throw in Expedition :P
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2015, 08:48:55 am »
0

Just have two council rooms in your hand and pass those to possessed her.
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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2015, 04:26:52 am »
0

Well, we haven't played since then, but we did get Intrigue. We just haven't opened it yet because we've been busy with other things.

Why Dominion? Well, because her best friend and her best friend's husband love it and they played with her and she liked it. She likes how it changes all the time. So I don't think it is necessarily that she doesn't like having to think, but rather she doesn't like playing with someone who is a lot better. And really, I haven't really played much better. Sure, I read most of the strategy articles and learned a lot, but when I try to put it in practice, I seem lost. A lot of the strategies depend on cards that aren't in the base set. And while I can understand a strategy in concept, figuring out the details of how to implement it, which parts to get at what time and in what situations, is very much beyond me still. I think it was just the idea of me getting obsessed with my latest obsession (and thereby causing me to get really good at it) that she is afraid of.

I got Goku, I mean Goko, and have been playing the campaign mode against the AI lately. I've read that the AI is supposed to be terrible, but I've had a really tough time beating them on some kingdoms. Like the one where there are 3 AI players and there are Witches and Militia everyone is attacking everyone all the time. It took me many tries to win and I still probably don't understand why that strategy resulted in me winning over the other tries. But I think this is a good way for me to become familiar with how the cards interact. I did this same thing with the PC version of Catan: Cities and Knights and at first they beat me all the time, but over time I've finally developed a play style where I win most of the time.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 01:37:02 pm by Idec Sdawkminn »
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Awaclus

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2015, 04:43:33 am »
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Like the one where there are 3 AI players and there are Witches and Militia everyone is attacking everyone all the time. It took me many tries to win and I still probably don't understand why that strategy resulted in me winning over the other tries.

Multiplayer Dominion is an entirely different game than 2-player Dominion, and basically all strategy discussion here is about the latter and doesn't necessarily apply all that well for the former.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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iguanaiguana

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2015, 09:31:24 am »
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Also in some of the campaign levels, they are engineered to have one bot who will get money and vp and two others that just load up on attacks to take you down. So the bots are often easy in a full random kingdom but some of the campaign levels are actually hard
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
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Idec Sdawkminn

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2015, 01:43:12 pm »
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Also in some of the campaign levels, they are engineered to have one bot who will get money and vp and two others that just load up on attacks to take you down. So the bots are often easy in a full random kingdom but some of the campaign levels are actually hard
Yeah, I've noticed that. And I try really hard not to chose a strategy specifically to counter that AI's strategy on that kingdom, because that is learning something that will help me in that specific situation that probably won't ever happen again. I try to learn the best way to play the kingdom and win that way instead of the best way to beat that bot.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2015, 03:35:18 pm »
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Also in some of the campaign levels, they are engineered to have one bot who will get money and vp and two others that just load up on attacks to take you down. So the bots are often easy in a full random kingdom but some of the campaign levels are actually hard
Yeah, I've noticed that. And I try really hard not to chose a strategy specifically to counter that AI's strategy on that kingdom, because that is learning something that will help me in that specific situation that probably won't ever happen again. I try to learn the best way to play the kingdom and win that way instead of the best way to beat that bot.

If your goal is to win campaigns, do whatever is necessary to win. If your goal is to get better at dominion, play random kingdoms and play against humans as much as possible.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

Mr. Durdle

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Re: Play badly or risk not playing?
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2015, 07:22:46 pm »
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Dominion is a cool game for this exact reason. It plays like a card game that you can learn in 10 minutes, since the objective is simple: get the most/best green cards.

I was introduced to Dominion through active players, and now play with novices. To keep their interest, I try to pick Kingdoms that teach the game, play quickly, and have fun interaction. Tunnel, Throne Room/ Kings Court, simple defense cards (Lighthouse, Moat), and a few base deck engine pieces (Village, Laboratory, Smithy) make for games that beginners can make strategies with, or at least stumble through while achieving the objective. Dominion has its own logic, and several cards that make the game great for experienced players use language that's only relevant in certain situations, and even the idea of crafting engines is an abstract concept when buying money seems paramount.
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