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[faust]

WW corrected your research, which was presented in a way to make me seem wrong.  He added average posts and showed that in general, he posts at or more than the average as scum and less than average as town.

There are exceptions in both data sets, of course, which is why I called it a generalization.

But really, I'm right anyway.  Twice town has lost as a direct consequence of town Jimmmmm lurking too much -- the game where it was lylo and he missed the deadline to give raerae the win and the game where his lurking gave me the win as SK, again at lylo.

Name another towny so infamous for lurking.  And compare that to his scum games, where he's never missed a winning hammer.

So, my perception of Jimmmmm as a town lurker and a scum active player is founded on experience and evidence.

You "presenting" "evidence" was a ploy to paint me as scummy and you got called on it multiple times.  Now you are voting me to defend it as genuine.  I'm not buying it.  You are way smarter than that -- you know math and stats better than that.

Other towny so infamous for lurking: EgorK

It seems we have to do the math. I thought it was clearly visible.

Out of the referenced town games, on average Jimmmmm posts 1.12 times more often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Out of the referenced scum games, on average Jimmmmm posts 0.87 times less often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Your statement is thus shown to be plain wrong. And even if the number were different, your original statement:

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

was never correct to begin with.

[faust]

And missing deadlines != lurking.

[faust]

Let's stop these accusations right there.

I am the Universal Backup.

[chairs]

Woo, faust IC is great

[Hydrad]

whoa so we have a potential 3 IC's? thats so many!

[ashersky]

Woo, faust IC is great

We could have a counterclaim.  unvote until that happens.

[ashersky]

Other towny so infamous for lurking: EgorK

It seems we have to do the math. I thought it was clearly visible.

Out of the referenced town games, on average Jimmmmm posts 1.12 times more often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Out of the referenced scum games, on average Jimmmmm posts 0.87 times less often than the average player. (excluding games where he died before D2)

Your statement is thus shown to be plain wrong. And even if the number were different, your original statement:

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

was never correct to begin with.

EgorK may lurk, but he's not infamous for it.  You could also have named chairs, but again, it's never been so bad it's cost town a game.

Nice way to manipulate the stats to help your case.  As is always the case with stats, I guess.  How about you don't exclude games that don't help your argument?

[faust]

Nice way to manipulate the stats to help your case.  As is always the case with stats, I guess.  How about you don't exclude games that don't help your argument?

Out of the referenced town games, on average Jimmmmm posts 1.23 times more often than the average player.

Out of the referenced scum games, on average Jimmmmm posts 0.80 times less often than the average player.

Now I did not exclude any games. Obviously excluding games helped my argument a lot 

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you are wrong?

[faust]

I should not (yet) be considered IC by the way. Everyone who does that pays way too little attention to the setup. Which is especially weird from ashersky, who created the setup.

[ashersky]

Jimmmmm because early game pass/doesn't actually lurk as scum ever.

Let me consult the records for Jimmmmm scum games.

M18: 33 posts (okay, he was killed N1) 63.94 per player per player
M28: 43 posts, lynched D4 114.67 per player
M33: 112 posts, alive until the end   103.23 per player
M38: 114 posts, alive until the end 82.23 per player
M48: 59 posts, alive until the end 91.46 per playe

I don't think this qualifies as "Jimmmmm doesn't lurk as scum, ever".

this needs averages for context: see above...

Here is your research, given context by yuma.  You don't even list town games, by the way.  Another exclusionary tactic.  But anyway, if we exclude games based on your arbitrary lines, we get 2 over average and 2 under.  So that's 50% -- to be like you (pedantic), we're both wrong.

and further compared to his town games:

Jimmmmm (90) (94 per player)
Jimmmmm (313) (199.87 per player)
Jimmmmm (52) (81.67 per player) killednight1
Jimmmmm (246) (149.06 per player)
Jimmmmm (109) (142.31 per player)
Jimmmmm (248) (123.42 per player)
Jimmmmm (128) (121.23 per player)
Jimmmmm (103) (108.46 per player)
Jimmmmm (119) (40.17 per player)
Jimmmmm (118) (193.95 per player)
Jimmmmm (40) (66.33 per player) lynched day1
Jimmmmm (36) (37.78 per player)

Here is yuma's research showing Jimmmmm's town games.  He's again, 5/10 at being under/over the average.  So again, we're both wrong.

It seems, if you want to base the argument on these numbers, Jimmmm, in games lasting past N1, has a 50% chance of post more or less than the average per game.  Sounds...like nothing at all.

Instead, I'm basing my read on my experience, which is lurky-to-the-point-of-detrimental-Jimmmmm is ALWAYS town and posts-enough-to-destroy-faces-Jimmmmm is scum.

[ashersky]

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you are wrong?

You are acting like you've never played a game with me.

I'm not "wrong."  You are turning a subjective argument into an objective one.  It doesn't work that way.  I'm talking about perception, not statistics.

[ashersky]

I should not (yet) be considered IC by the way. Everyone who does that pays way too little attention to the setup. Which is especially weird from ashersky, who created the setup.

What?  I'm the one who pointed out that you are not an IC.

Woo, faust IC is great

We could have a counterclaim.  unvote until that happens.

The "...until that happens" portion of my post is pointing out that you are not confirmed to be town.

[faust]

This discussion is tiresome and not helping game progress. How about you choose another player to vote for now that you've unvoted me? That would actually help us move forward.

PPE 1

[faust]

I should not (yet) be considered IC by the way. Everyone who does that pays way too little attention to the setup. Which is especially weird from ashersky, who created the setup.

What?  I'm the one who pointed out that you are not an IC.

Woo, faust IC is great

We could have a counterclaim.  unvote until that happens.

The "...until that happens" portion of my post is pointing out that you are not confirmed to be town.

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

[ashersky]

This discussion is tiresome and not helping game progress. How about you choose another player to vote for now that you've unvoted me? That would actually help us move forward.

PPE 1

On this we can agree.

How about TA?  How do we feel about him?

vote: TA

[ashersky]

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

This is a hilarious (on a 5th grade level) typo, and should be your signature.

I think the UB would/should counterclaim you.  It's a 1 for 1 with scum, which is awesome, even if we mislynch the wrong one first.  There's zero reason not to counterclaim, and it's a terrible fake claim by scum.

[faust]

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

This is a hilarious (on a 5th grade level) typo, and should be your signature.

I think the UB would/should counterclaim you.  It's a 1 for 1 with scum, which is awesome, even if we mislynch the wrong one first.  There's zero reason not to counterclaim, and it's a terrible fake claim by scum.

No, no. Look at the setup. A single M means that the Universal Backup gets turned into a Mason without their knowledge. In that case there would be no UB. Now a Mason already claimed. There can only be Masons AND a UB if we have at least 3 Ms, i.e. at most 3 Ts. If the scum team is Godfather/Goon/Goon, they would know that there's only a single M and that they can safely claim UB.

[ashersky]

My point is that I could be lying even if there is no cunterclaim.

This is a hilarious (on a 5th grade level) typo, and should be your signature.

I think the UB would/should counterclaim you.  It's a 1 for 1 with scum, which is awesome, even if we mislynch the wrong one first.  There's zero reason not to counterclaim, and it's a terrible fake claim by scum.

No, no. Look at the setup. A single M means that the Universal Backup gets turned into a Mason without their knowledge. In that case there would be no UB. Now a Mason already claimed. There can only be Masons AND a UB if we have at least 3 Ms, i.e. at most 3 Ts. If the scum team is Godfather/Goon/Goon, they would know that there's only a single M and that they can safely claim UB.

Very true.

I was focused on the counterclaim, which definitely needs to happen if it exists.

The likelihood that it happens is lessened by the masons' existence, as you point out.

If you are lying based on the mason claim, you'll be caught when a mason dies and you don't join the other, though.  Good luck with that.

(Note, I think it's more likely you are town, anyway.  But you clearly thought this claim through, if it's fake.)

[yuma]

And I thought I had a really good day1 case there.  unvote

Well I think at this point the second mason should claim because a lack of claim would mean that one of Faust/gk is lying, yes? Plus three ic on day1 is great for narrowing the pool down by a lot!

[faust]

I think I still like vote: Twistedarcher. He's remarkably absent and the posts he has lack content.

[pingpongsam]

With the recent Faust claim I am near positive TA is scum. There has been nothing that guy has done that is townish at all. His only argument for voting me is my nonsensical play which I have demonstrated has sense and has actually propelled the game forward quite a bit. For proof just look at how many posts are looking at interactions to my opening plays, which was exactly the point. I was thinking it possible TA and Faust were scum partners but now I think TA is just scum and that my initial reads may have at least 2 of 3 scum team identified. My biggest counter argument to that bold claim is that I haven't already been crucified which means they are probably super happy with my current assertions.

[yuma]

Wow

[ashersky]

And I thought I had a really good day1 case there.  unvote

Well I think at this point the second mason should claim because a lack of claim would mean that one of Faust/gk is lying, yes? Plus three ic on day1 is great for narrowing the pool down by a lot!

I'll think about it.  Not sure yet if that's right.

Wow

You must have forgotten PPS's style.

[ashersky]

I think we have some underposters here that need a lookie-loo.

[Witherweaver]

I think I still like vote: Twistedarcher. He's remarkably absent and the posts he has lack content.

In his most recent scum games, TA has been remarkably nonabsent.  His play seems different here.