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Author Topic: Dominion: Bestiary - Cards that reference themselves (beta: just a few ideas)  (Read 9599 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Inspired by Rats and Magpie (but not Trusty Steed)

Attempting to make a small expansion out of cards that reference themselves. Ideas so far:

King Parrot
Action - $3
Do this twice:
Play an Action card you have in play that isn't a King Parrot or a Duration card.

Cats
Action - $4
Gain a Cats
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Toad
Action/Attack - $4
+$1
You may gain a Toad. If you did, each other player gains a Curse. Otherwise, return this to the supply.

Tiger
Action - $4
+2 Cards
You may play an Action card that isn't a Tiger from your hand.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 11:05:25 am by NoMoreFun »
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GeeJo

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Some neat ideas! Do you think you'd want a non-regular number of beasts in a pile?

I'd specify the types that Tiger can play, unless it's intended that you can use it to "play" Curses and Victory cards (which might be relevant if there's something like Bonfire around).

Throne Rooming a King Parrot which Parrots the Throne Room is going to be weird, though I don't see why it wouldn't work.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 08:02:06 am by GeeJo »
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NoMoreFun

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Some neat ideas! Do you think you'd want a non-regular number of beasts in a pile?

I'd specify the types that Tiger can play, unless it's intended that you can use it to "play" Curses and Victory cards (which might be relevant if there's something like Bonfire around).

Nah, just an oversight.
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Awaclus

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I'd specify the types that Tiger can play, unless it's intended that you can use it to "play" Curses and Victory cards (which might be relevant if there's something like Bonfire around).

I don't think you could have played Curses and Victory cards anyway.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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GeeJo

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The rules for individual phases lay out that you can play Actions in the Action phase and Treasures in the buy phase, but there's nothing in the rules *preventing* unusual types from being played out of their regular phases if a particular card tells you to. Otherwise Storyteller, Black Market and Caravan Guard wouldn't work as printed. It's just that there are no "play any card" cards around, so the issue of playing Curses or pure Victory cards hasn't come up.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 08:14:41 am by GeeJo »
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Awaclus

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The rules for individual phases lay out that you can play Actions in the Action phase and Treasures in the buy phase, but there's nothing in the rules *preventing* unusual types from being played if a particular card tells you to. It's just that there are no "play any card" cards around, so it hasn't come up.

Well, it's essentially a case of "do the card rules overwrite rulebook rules even when there isn't necessarily a contradiction". That has come up with Throne Room and Mining Village, and the answer is no.
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LastFootnote

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The rules for individual phases lay out that you can play Actions in the Action phase and Treasures in the buy phase, but there's nothing in the rules *preventing* unusual types from being played if a particular card tells you to. It's just that there are no "play any card" cards around, so it hasn't come up.

Well, it's essentially a case of "do the card rules overwrite rulebook rules even when there isn't necessarily a contradiction". That has come up with Throne Room and Mining Village, and the answer is no.

??? Link or it didn't happen.

I am quite sure that GeeJo is correct.
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Awaclus

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The rules for individual phases lay out that you can play Actions in the Action phase and Treasures in the buy phase, but there's nothing in the rules *preventing* unusual types from being played if a particular card tells you to. It's just that there are no "play any card" cards around, so it hasn't come up.

Well, it's essentially a case of "do the card rules overwrite rulebook rules even when there isn't necessarily a contradiction". That has come up with Throne Room and Mining Village, and the answer is no.

??? Link or it didn't happen.

I am quite sure that GeeJo is correct.

You can't trash a Mining Village which is already in the trash even though it says that you may trash it.

EDIT: Although, rethinking it, you can probably try trashing it and fail. In that case, you could also try playing a Victory card and succeed.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 09:25:33 am by Awaclus »
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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NoMoreFun

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Adding some Durations so King Parrot doesn't need "Duration (from Dominion: Seaside or Dominion: Adventures)" on its text.

Dolphin
Action/Duration - $4
+2 Cards
If any other player has a Dolphin in play, +$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action

Fish
Action/Duration - $2
+1 Action
+1 Buy
At the start of your next turn, you may return this to the supply. If you do, +$2
---
While this is in play, when you would gain a card, you may instead gain a Fish.
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GendoIkari

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The rules for individual phases lay out that you can play Actions in the Action phase and Treasures in the buy phase, but there's nothing in the rules *preventing* unusual types from being played if a particular card tells you to. It's just that there are no "play any card" cards around, so it hasn't come up.

Well, it's essentially a case of "do the card rules overwrite rulebook rules even when there isn't necessarily a contradiction". That has come up with Throne Room and Mining Village, and the answer is no.

??? Link or it didn't happen.

I am quite sure that GeeJo is correct.

You can't trash a Mining Village which is already in the trash even though it says that you may trash it.

EDIT: Although, rethinking it, you can probably try trashing it and fail. In that case, you could also try playing a Victory card and succeed.

Your edit is correct. There's a rule preventing you from trashing things in the trash. 2 rules actually. One, the track rule, which says that you can't trash it because it's not where it expects it to be. Two, the definition of trash which is to move from somewhere other than the trash to the trash. I don't think the second rule is anywhere explicit; it's just the definition of trash.

There is no rule that says you cannot play victory cards. The rules only spell out what you can do, not what you can't. And they say you can play action cards, and they say you can do what a card tells you to do.
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GendoIkari

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Cats
Action - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it and a Cats.


For clarity, put "gain a cats" before the rest. "And a cats" is ambiguous, sounds like you gain one card that  has to cost 1 more than the trashed card and 1 more than cats.
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popsofctown

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Pretty sure you can play Victory cards.  I'm pretty sure everyone in this forum has played a Victory card.

Just like Storyteller lets you play Harem during your action phase, even though you have no business playing treasures during your action phase.  The game rules do not empower you to do so, but Storyteller's text does.  If Storyteller's checked for the characteristic "a card named Estate" instead of "a card that is at Treasure", there is no reason it would stop working. 
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LastFootnote

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Back on topic, I'm really liking these ideas. Very cool stuff.

King Parrot
Action - $3
Do this twice:
Play an Action card you have in play that isn't a King Parrot or a Duration card.

Early on, Adventures had a similar card that let you replay a card you had in play. The problem is that you usually need a village to make it worthwhile. Maybe doing it twice makes up for that, but I worry that King Parrot will be really strong in the cases where you do have a village available. It might just be too strong across the board.

Cats
Action - $4
Gain a Cats
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Sort of a roundabout Rats/Feast. I mean it's similar in concept to Rats, but maybe different enough.

Toad
Action/Attack - $4
+$1
You may gain a Toad. If you did, each other player gains a Curse. Otherwise, return this to the supply.

Looks promising, although it has the potential to empty the Curses very quickly; even more quickly than Sea Hag. Obviously you're shooting yourself in the foot if you do so, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. Anyway there may be tweaks if that ends up being the case. I like the concept.

Tiger
Action - $4
+2 Cards
You may play an Action card that isn't a Tiger from your hand.

Very simple and very cool.

Dolphin
Action/Duration - $4
+2 Cards
If any other player has a Dolphin in play, +$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action

Neat. You might consider "Choose a player. +$1 per Dolphin he has in play." But maybe that's too much of a boost for the players that go Dolphin (in a game with more than 2 players). Cool idea in general.

Fish
Action/Duration - $2
+1 Action
+1 Buy
At the start of your next turn, you may return this to the supply. If you do, +$2
---
While this is in play, when you would gain a card, you may instead gain a Fish.

Looks cool!
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AJD

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Back on topic, I'm really liking these ideas. Very cool stuff.

King Parrot
Action - $3
Do this twice:
Play an Action card you have in play that isn't a King Parrot or a Duration card.

Early on, Adventures had a similar card that let you replay a card you had in play. The problem is that you usually need a village to make it worthwhile. Maybe doing it twice makes up for that, but I worry that King Parrot will be really strong in the cases where you do have a village available. It might just be too strong across the board.

I think the comparison points here are King's Court and Conspirator. Conspirator is proto–Grand Market, a $7 card, but only if you can play two Action cards before it and still have enough actions left to play Conspirator. If you can play two Action cards before King Parrot and still have an action remaining, King Parrot gives you more flexibility than King's Court, at the cost of using up one more action than King's Court would. I'm... not sure what that adds up to, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is more balanced at $5 than $3.
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LastFootnote

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Back on topic, I'm really liking these ideas. Very cool stuff.

King Parrot
Action - $3
Do this twice:
Play an Action card you have in play that isn't a King Parrot or a Duration card.

Early on, Adventures had a similar card that let you replay a card you had in play. The problem is that you usually need a village to make it worthwhile. Maybe doing it twice makes up for that, but I worry that King Parrot will be really strong in the cases where you do have a village available. It might just be too strong across the board.

I think the comparison points here are King's Court and Conspirator. Conspirator is proto–Grand Market, a $7 card, but only if you can play two Action cards before it and still have enough actions left to play Conspirator. If you can play two Action cards before King Parrot and still have an action remaining, King Parrot gives you more flexibility than King's Court, at the cost of using up one more action than King's Court would. I'm... not sure what that adds up to, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is more balanced at $5 than $3.

You don't need to have played two Actions before King Parrot. Play Laboratory, then play King Parrot, choosing that Laboratory twice. You now have 2 Actions and 9 cards in hand.
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AJD

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Back on topic, I'm really liking these ideas. Very cool stuff.

King Parrot
Action - $3
Do this twice:
Play an Action card you have in play that isn't a King Parrot or a Duration card.

Early on, Adventures had a similar card that let you replay a card you had in play. The problem is that you usually need a village to make it worthwhile. Maybe doing it twice makes up for that, but I worry that King Parrot will be really strong in the cases where you do have a village available. It might just be too strong across the board.

I think the comparison points here are King's Court and Conspirator. Conspirator is proto–Grand Market, a $7 card, but only if you can play two Action cards before it and still have enough actions left to play Conspirator. If you can play two Action cards before King Parrot and still have an action remaining, King Parrot gives you more flexibility than King's Court, at the cost of using up one more action than King's Court would. I'm... not sure what that adds up to, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is more balanced at $5 than $3.

You don't need to have played two Actions before King Parrot. Play Laboratory, then play King Parrot, choosing that Laboratory twice. You now have 2 Actions and 9 cards in hand.

If you play one (non-terminal) Action before King Parrot, King Parrot is as good as King's Court minus one action. What I said was that if you play two Actions before King Parrot, it's more flexible than King's Court minus one action.
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LastFootnote

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If you play one (non-terminal) Action before King Parrot, King Parrot is as good as King's Court minus one action. What I said was that if you play two Actions before King Parrot, it's more flexible than King's Court minus one action.

Gotcha.

Either way, I'd think King Parrot is probably too strong even at $5.
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NoMoreFun

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Thanks for the feedback.

Big oversight with King Parrot, forgetting the value of the initial play that you get. Back to the drawing board there (it's not really exploring anything Royal Carriage doesn't anyway).

Another possible card (will need a Sanity Check)

Parrot
Action - $4
Put a card from your hand onto your Tavern Mat
Play this as if it were an Action card on your Tavern Mat that isn't a Parrot.
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GeeJo

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Without commenting on whether it would be broken or fine since it's something that needs playtesting, some odd interactions:

  • There's an (I assume) unintended side-effect of the new Parrot in that it lets you tuck your junk onto your Tavern Mat. Greening will no longer harm your deck at all. So in addition to its action-copying it's a repeatable Island, too, for the same cost.
  • This doubles the size of a Laboratory or Minion or Hunting Party pile while making half of them cheaper.
  • When a card leaves play, it loses track of what it was doing. What this means is that if I Parrot an existing Reserve card, the Parrot is lost permanently on the mat and can't be called back for effect.
  • Put a Band of Misfits on the Tavern mat; Parrot plays as Band of Misfits plays as Parrot plays as Band of Misfits, etc. I think. I'm not sure whether you can stack "play as" effects like that. But if that's not the case, there's no need for the "other than a Parrot" clause on the card either.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 10:44:05 pm by GeeJo »
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NoMoreFun

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Without commenting on whether it would be broken or fine since it's something that needs playtesting, some odd interactions:

  • There's an (I assume) unintended side-effect of the new Parrot in that it lets you tuck your junk onto your Tavern Mat. Greening will no longer harm your deck at all. So in addition to its action-copying it's a repeatable Island, too, for the same cost.
  • This doubles the size of a Laboratory or Minion or Hunting Party pile while making half of them cheaper.
  • When a card leaves play, it loses track of what it was doing. What this means is that if I Parrot an existing Reserve card, the Parrot is lost permanently on the mat and can't be called back for effect.
  • Put a Band of Misfits on the Tavern mat; Parrot plays as Band of Misfits plays as Parrot plays as Band of Misfits, etc. I think. I'm not sure whether you can stack "play as" effects like that. But if that's not the case, there's no need for the "other than a Parrot" clause on the card either.

The Victory tucking was intentional, but maybe it shouldn't be there.

The Minion and Hunting party issue is the same with BoM and Ferry, as is the issue with BOM+Reserves.

The issue with Band of Misfits needs to be resolved though. The Band of Misfits on the reserve mat never "becomes" a Parrot, but you can still put any number of cards from your hand onto your tavern mat, and Pathfinding etc. ruin everything.

Attempt 3:

Parrot
Action: 5
You may put an action from your hand on your Tavern mat.
Play an action card from your tavern mat twice.
---
While this is in play, when you gain an Action card, you may put it on your Tavern mat.
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Jack Rudd

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Attempt 3:

Parrot
Action: 5
You may put an action from your hand on your Tavern mat.
Play an action card from your tavern mat twice.
---
While this is in play, when you gain an Action card, you may put it on your Tavern mat.
Jack Rudd plays a Parrot
...putting a Parrot on the Tavern mat
...playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
......playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
.........playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
............playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
...............playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
..................playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
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NoMoreFun

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Only if you have infinitely many parrots on your tavern mat. The card you play leaves the mat.
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ancientcampus

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Throne Rooming a King Parrot which Parrots the Throne Room is going to be weird, though I don't see why it wouldn't work.
Brain = Broke.

First off, love the idea for the set.

Second: I love King Parrot in particular. I like the idea of a card that replays cards that are already in play - I realize why it had issues working well, given that it utterly relies on +action in some form.

Conspirator is a great example though - it's okay (read: bad) if you haven't "activated" it yet, but not useless. I'd say a King Parrot that only plays the in-play card once, and provides some benefit if it lacks a target might be workable. Perhaps less exciting, though.

liopoil

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liopoil plays a Parrot
...playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
......playing an Upgrade from the tavern mat twice
........trashing a fortress twice for an upgrade and a parrot on the tavern mat
......playing a Parrot from the tavern mat twice
.........playing an upgrade from the tavern mat twice
............trashing a fortress twice for an upgrade and a parrot on the tavern mat

.
.
.

Now I have all the Parrots and all the Upgrades in my deck, a million actions, and I drew 20 cards from the upgrades. Oh, and I still get to parrot another thing. What did I need? A parrot and upgrade on the mat or in my hand, and another parrot and fortress in my hand. 3-card combo, but this is just an extreme case. This card will have lots of insane things. Maybe that's okay with you though.
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NoMoreFun

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Animals have a thing for rapid self piling given the right conditions.

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