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[werothegreat]

So, there's already quite a lot covered by the current sets, probably enough to last all of us our lifetimes.  But let's say Donald announces another expansion - what would you hope to see in it?

Personally, I'd like to see:
-more complex cards in general
-another set of Travellers
-more Reserve cards that use the Tavern mat as a penalty, like Wine Merchant
-cards that interact with Curses other than handing them out as an Attack

Also, I realize that this forum is practically half playtesters at this point, so feel free to not respond if you are one, so it doesn't seem like you're confirming or denying anything.

[qmech]

But I haven't played with the last expansion yet.

[jsh357]

I want a free hat with the next one

[Deadlock39]

I want a card that can trash a card that is in play so we can create infinite loops with Procession and Graverobber and break all the puzzle threads.

(Donald is too smart to allow it to happen, but I still want it.)

[CG19]

Cards that can optionally trash themselves when you remove them from play.

[shmeur]

curse hybrids

[werothegreat]

I want a card that can trash a card that is in play so we can create infinite loops with Procession and Graverobber and break all the puzzle threads.

(Donald is too smart to allow it to happen, but I still want it.)

You can already do that with Hireling and get infinite Hirelings in play.

[Asper]

I'll just quote my last predictions (half serious):

Are you already planning an expansion after Adventures?

If there will be an other expansion, will it have some of the new things from Adventures as well (like events)?

You're not going to get real information, so have some fake:

Expansion 10: Modern Times - introduces a board
Expansion 11: Borders - introduces Team play and player abilities
Expansion 12: The catapult - introduces pantomiming, singing and shooting meeples at the supply
Expansion 13: Legacy - A treasure chest with Vp and coin tokens, Potion costs and the good old team cards from "Borders"
Expansion 14: Secrets - Co-created by Klaus Teuber, introduces player elimination, dice and ressources
Expansion 15: Ultimate - Another treasure chest for Dominion's 40th birthday
That's all planned for now.

[AdamH]

I want a card that can trash a card that is in play so we can create infinite loops with Procession and Graverobber and break all the puzzle threads.

(Donald is too smart to allow it to happen, but I still want it.)

You can already do that with Hireling and get infinite Hirelings in play.

You can already trash cards from play with Bonfire

[LastFootnote]

I want a card that can trash a card that is in play so we can create infinite loops with Procession and Graverobber and break all the puzzle threads.

(Donald is too smart to allow it to happen, but I still want it.)

You can already do that with Hireling and get infinite Hirelings in play.

You can already trash cards from play with Bonfire

That doesn't create infinite loops with Action cards, though; you have to be in your Buy phase to use Bonfire.

I don't see how Procession isn't already filling this role, though.

[Deadlock39]

I want a card that can trash a card that is in play so we can create infinite loops with Procession and Graverobber and break all the puzzle threads.

(Donald is too smart to allow it to happen, but I still want it.)

You can already do that with Hireling and get infinite Hirelings in play.

You can already trash cards from play with Bonfire

That doesn't create infinite loops with Action cards, though; you have to be in your Buy phase to use Bonfire.

I don't see how Procession isn't already filling this role, though.

I was trying to describe a situation where you could generate an infinite chain that would produce infinite Actions, Buys, and/or Coins without ever leaving the action phase in a turn. I thought you could do this if you could trash the starting Procession of a chain, but I don't think it is actually that easy.  What it actually needs is not a card that can trash another action that is in play, but rather just "King's Procession" (Procession that triples actions instead of doubles).

Play 2 King's Processions from the second one play Graverobber to gain a Graverobber a King's Procession and a cantrip on top of your deck, then the cantrip to draw the new set, then the third play repeats infinitely.

[Voltaire]

What I always want to see - alt Victory cards, Kingdom Treasures, the stuff that looks superficially shiny.

[Beyond Awesome]

More events.

More coin tokens.

More vp tokens

Honestly though, for the most part Dominion almost feels complete to me. But we are lacking in vp token generating cards

[Aleimon Thimble]

Dominion feels pretty complete. The newest expansion is really awesome, but I don't think we really need any more anytime soon. Maybe in a couple of years or so.

I agree there should be more VP token generating cards, though. And maybe some stuff that comboes well with cards that are currently very weak, or counters cards that are very strong.

[Awaclus]

A cantrip that just reveals your opponents' hands. Bonus points for not being an Attack, more bonus points for also discarding all Reactions in them.

[markusin]

A cantrip that just reveals your opponents' hands. Bonus points for not being an Attack, more bonus points for also discarding all Reactions in them.

Too bad Lighthouse isn't a Reaction.

[Awaclus]

A cantrip that just reveals your opponents' hands. Bonus points for not being an Attack, more bonus points for also discarding all Reactions in them.

Too bad Lighthouse isn't a Reaction.

Well, it doesn't work from your hand, so discarding it wouldn't do much for the current turn anyway.

[Asper]

What i seriously want:
- More simple cards
- Events
- Cards that change rules for the entire game (on their own cards that are placed next to the supply, similar to Events)
- Ongoing abilities that players can aquire throughout the game (like, "My ally is King Ronald, who allows me to put my deck in my discard whenever i please")
- Alt-VP, for example an attack
- Friendly interaction
- Donald changing his mind on the Transmute/Inheritance ruling
- A board, or a card that has a skill tree (not actually seriously)
- At least one card with hilariously awkward art

[LastFootnote]

-more complex cards in general

- More simple cards

I'm very interested in hearing people's opinions on what makes a card "simple" or "complex". Is there any middle ground between the two, or is each card one or the other? Obviously opinions will differ, and that's fine.

In my opinion, Dominion has very few truly complex cards. I would nominate Library, Pirate Ship, Scrying Pool, Possession, Tournament, Jack of all Trades, Noble Brigand, Hermit, Knights, Count, Rebuild, Butcher, Messenger, Bridge Troll, Giant, Teacher, Warrior, Governor, and Prince.  Some cards—like Outpost and Band of Misfits—can have complex interactions but are simple conceptually and simple to use in most games.

[markusin]

- Donald changing his mind on the Transmute/Inheritance ruling

Wait what is the Transmute/Inheritance ruling in the end?

[Witherweaver]

Moar beards.

[ancientcampus]

- Cards that change rules for the entire game (on their own cards that are placed next to the supply, similar to Events)

I've wanted to do something like that for a while. Things like "Players start every turn with +1 additional action", "Set up: at the start of the game, give every player 2 coin tokens".

Fan versions wouldn't even need to be particularly balanced, just fun for a game or two: "When gaining a card, if it would go to the discard, put it in your hand instead." But that's drifting off topic.

[werothegreat]

- Donald changing his mind on the Transmute/Inheritance ruling

Wait what is the Transmute/Inheritance ruling in the end?

Transmuting an Inherited Estate only gives you a Gold.

-more complex cards in general

- More simple cards

I'm very interested in hearing people's opinions on what makes a card "simple" or "complex". Is there any middle ground between the two, or is each card one or the other? Obviously opinions will differ, and that's fine.

In my opinion, Dominion has very few truly complex cards. I would nominate Library, Pirate Ship, Scrying Pool, Possession, Tournament, Jack of all Trades, Noble Brigand, Hermit, Knights, Count, Rebuild, Butcher, Messenger, Bridge Troll, Giant, Teacher, Warrior, Governor, and Prince.  Some cards—like Outpost and Band of Misfits—can have complex interactions but are simple conceptually and simple to use in most games.

I've actually had this discussion with someone who felt Dominion wasn't complex enough.  Most of the official cards are very compactly worded, and tend to do one or two basic things.  Whereas if you look through the Variants subforum, most of the cards are just ridiculous and do fifty different things.

I think to me, a good way to look at this is comparing MtG and Hearthstone.  MtG keeps coming up with new keywords for things, and if someone plays a card you've never seen before, you usually have to peer at it for about a minute, then argue over whether or not the player is interpreting it correctly.  Whereas with most of the cards revealed for the newest Hearthstone expansion, it's mostly stuff like "if this condition happens, get +1 Attack/Health".  Maybe that's because HS is still kind of in its infancy as a CCG and can still get away with a lot of those simpler things, and MtG is kind of running out of things to do, but it does seem like a lot of the Grand Tournament cards are just kind of... boring.

I think Donald has tried to strike a balance between easy to understand and interesting, and for the most part, has succeeded.  I think most of that success is, instead of having "oh this is the same thing as a previous card, but I gave it +1 card", Donald is trying to have each card do a different thing.  Maybe that's because as a deckbuilder, there isn't that problem of "I can only have 2/3/4 copies of each card in my deck, so I'll just find five different cards that do pretty much the same thing".  So we don't need a Goons that draws cards instead of giving .  We don't need a Grand Laboratory that also gives a +Buy.  So instead we get Butchers and Bridge Trolls and Bands of Misfits.  Donald seems to be actively trying to do things that he hasn't done before.

That said, it would be nice to have some more intricate cards.

[Voltaire]

I am always for simple cards. Simple cards (to me) are about one thing communicated clearly (so that's two pieces).

1. One concept
2. Clear

Library passes 1, fails 2. That doesn't make it a bad card, just not my preferred kind of card. I am glad that Library exists and I like it. But if Dominion were mostly Librarys, the game would be less fun.

Fools Gold is an example of a card that, for me, fails 1 and passes 2. Each of Fools Gold's concepts (or "things") are simple and clear. But why does the reaction go with the top part? It's just kind of there. I think the secret history even says the top and bottom were from separate cards initially and ended up together. That's fine, but not my preference.

So anyway, future cards should be as "simple" as possible as their expansionary nature allows.

EDIT: Changed "thing" to "concept" for clarity

[Voltaire]

I would actually consider Pirate Ship a card that passes my 1 and 2, despite LF calling it complex.

[AJD]

I would actually consider Pirate Ship a card that passes my 1 and 2, despite LF calling it complex.

I don't think the wording of Pirate Ship is very clear (especially in a post-Guilds world). It's a ton of text; it says "take a Coin token" but doesn't really mean it; it comes with a mat but the card text doesn't tell you what to use the mat for; lots of people read the card and think you spend the coin tokens when you use the card for money and then have to build them up again.

[GendoIkari]

I am always for simple cards. Simple cards (to me) are about one thing communicated clearly (so that's two pieces).

1. One thing
2. Clear

Library passes 1, fails 2. That doesn't make it a bad card, just not my preferred kind of card. I am glad that Library exists and I like it. But if Dominion were mostly Librarys, the game would be less fun.

Fools Gold is an example of a card that, for me, fails 1 and passes 2. Each of Fools Gold's things are simple and clear. But why does the reaction go with the top part? It's just kind of there. I think the secret history even says the top and bottom were from separate cards initially and ended up together. That's fine, but not my preference.

So anyway, future cards should be as "simple" as possible as their expansionary nature allows.

I'm not clear on the "one thing" test. Does this mean that you think less of any cards that have an "or" in them? Or any reaction cards? Both of those types of cards are things that by the literal definition can do more than 1 thing.

[Voltaire]

I would actually consider Pirate Ship a card that passes my 1 and 2, despite LF calling it complex.

I don't think the wording of Pirate Ship is very clear (especially in a post-Guilds world). It's a ton of text; it says "take a Coin token" but doesn't really mean it; it comes with a mat but the card text doesn't tell you what to use the mat for; lots of people read the card and think you spend the coin tokens when you use the card for money and then have to build them up again.

Oh well yes, Pirate Ship 100% needs errata to "Pirate Ship tokens", no argument there.

[Voltaire]

I am always for simple cards. Simple cards (to me) are about one thing communicated clearly (so that's two pieces).

1. One thing
2. Clear

Library passes 1, fails 2. That doesn't make it a bad card, just not my preferred kind of card. I am glad that Library exists and I like it. But if Dominion were mostly Librarys, the game would be less fun.

Fools Gold is an example of a card that, for me, fails 1 and passes 2. Each of Fools Gold's things are simple and clear. But why does the reaction go with the top part? It's just kind of there. I think the secret history even says the top and bottom were from separate cards initially and ended up together. That's fine, but not my preference.

So anyway, future cards should be as "simple" as possible as their expansionary nature allows.

I'm not clear on the "one thing" test. Does this mean that you think less of any cards that have an "or" in them? Or any reaction cards? Both of those types of cards are things that by the literal definition can do more than 1 thing.

I am obviously not talking about literally "one thing". Intrigue is not my least favorite expansion. But if there is a choice, the options should have some thematic or strategic pairing. Torturer is fine because you get to choose which punishment you take, for example, and as such it passes.

We're talking about gradients here - pick something on the extremes and you can make any stance look silly.

[JacquesTheBard]

I genuinely do not know. Adventures is incredible: between Travelers, Reserves, Events and Tokens we had enough innovation for multiple expansions. I really just hope that if Donald does more, he keeps the overall quality of the cards high.

And although "greatest hits" / "treasure chest" expansions are fun to speculate about, and fun for fanmade cards, I suspect that such an expansion would be VERY impractical to actually make. Too much stuff for Rio Grande to include in the box.

Knowing Donald, he'll consider an expansion if and when he has incredible ideas for new mechanics. That could take some time, but given how much awesome Dominion he's made already, he can take as much time as he wants.

[iguanaiguana]

I am always for simple cards. Simple cards (to me) are about one thing communicated clearly (so that's two pieces).

1. One thing
2. Clear

Library passes 1, fails 2. That doesn't make it a bad card, just not my preferred kind of card. I am glad that Library exists and I like it. But if Dominion were mostly Librarys, the game would be less fun.

Fools Gold is an example of a card that, for me, fails 1 and passes 2. Each of Fools Gold's things are simple and clear. But why does the reaction go with the top part? It's just kind of there. I think the secret history even says the top and bottom were from separate cards initially and ended up together. That's fine, but not my preference.

So anyway, future cards should be as "simple" as possible as their expansionary nature allows.

I'm not clear on the "one thing" test. Does this mean that you think less of any cards that have an "or" in them? Or any reaction cards? Both of those types of cards are things that by the literal definition can do more than 1 thing.

I am obviously not talking about literally "one thing". Intrigue is not my least favorite expansion. But if there is a choice, the options should have some thematic or strategic pairing. Torturer is fine because you get to choose which punishment you take, for example, and as such it passes.

We're talking about gradients here - pick something on the extremes and you can make any stance look silly.

Both fool's gold's top and bottom half present ways for you to make enough money to get a province. Once you are greening, it is harder to connect fool's golds, so the bottom half helps it stay relevant late game in some cases.

I think the two halves complement eachother nicely and they are certainly flavorful.

[LastFootnote]

I agree that cards should have one concept when possible, but for Reactions I'm willing to be very lenient. Some Reaction cards do just have one concept; "+2 Cards" is not part of Moat's concept. But the line is a bit blurred. Does Horse Traders have one concept or two? What about Beggar? I think ideally the non-Reaction part of a Reaction card is a simple thing that's just not interesting enough to be its own card.

[Voltaire]

I agree that cards should have one concept when possible, but for Reactions I'm willing to be very lenient. Some Reaction cards do just have one concept; "+2 Cards" is not part of Moat's concept. But the line is a bit blurred. Does Horse Traders have one concept or two? What about Beggar? I think ideally the non-Reaction part of a Reaction card is a simple thing that's just not interesting enough to be its own card.

This is a good point.

For me, Horse Traders is one concept because its top part makes it easy to do something with that bigger hand it gives you. Beggar feels like it does two different things, which is bizarre, since it's basically a card that gives you free money, more efficiently if you're "asked". Perhaps I should like Beggar more!

[Voltaire]

Both fool's gold's top and bottom half present ways for you to make enough money to get a province. Once you are greening, it is harder to connect fool's golds, so the bottom half helps it stay relevant late game in some cases.

This is precisely what I'm getting at - by adding the bottom part, Fools Gold becomes a better/more even card. I would rather Fools Gold be more narrow, and just a weak late-game card, for the sake of what I call simplicity. Though Fools Gold certainly is not a problem, it represents an early step on the path of making every card just kind of okay all the time by adding layers, which is what I call "complexity" and what I don't want.

[LibraryAdventurer]

I genuinely do not know. Adventures is incredible: between Travelers, Reserves, Events and Tokens we had enough innovation for multiple expansions. I really just hope that if Donald does more, he keeps the overall quality of the cards high.

And although "greatest hits" / "treasure chest" expansions are fun to speculate about, and fun for fanmade cards, I suspect that such an expansion would be VERY impractical to actually make. Too much stuff for Rio Grande to include in the box.

Knowing Donald, he'll consider an expansion if and when he has incredible ideas for new mechanics. That could take some time, but given how much awesome Dominion he's made already, he can take as much time as he wants.

totally agree.  My first choice would be to see a treasure chest with more cards that use coin tokens, VP tokens, ruins/spoils, reserves, the journey token, etc.  But I know that stuff would be too impractical to publish.  There are some cool mechanics from previous expansions whch are less combersome to publish. Donald already reprised durations, but we could see more multi-type VP/treasure cards, reserves, trash-interactions (I wouldn't mind seeing another card that could pull cards out of the trash), on-trash effects, etc.

[werothegreat]

Remember that Adventures started off as a treasure chest expansion, and Donald X realized that was impractical, except for the case of Durations.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I really just hope that if Donald does more, he keeps the overall quality of the cards high.

This is the one thing I'm certain of. I highly doubt that DXV would ever just crank out an expansion, he cares about Dominion way too much for that.

[Wrclass]

An entire set that focuses on cards that combo with bad cards from earlier sets.

[werothegreat]

An entire set that focuses on cards that combo with bad cards from earlier sets.

Unexplored Territory

- Victory

Worth 1 for every Scout in your deck.

[sc0UT]

curse hybrids

[popsofctown]

-more complex cards in general

- More simple cards

I'm very interested in hearing people's opinions on what makes a card "simple" or "complex". Is there any middle ground between the two, or is each card one or the other? Obviously opinions will differ, and that's fine.

In my opinion, Dominion has very few truly complex cards. I would nominate Library, Pirate Ship, Scrying Pool, Possession, Tournament, Jack of all Trades, Noble Brigand, Hermit, Knights, Count, Rebuild, Butcher, Messenger, Bridge Troll, Giant, Teacher, Warrior, Governor, and Prince.  Some cards—like Outpost and Band of Misfits—can have complex interactions but are simple conceptually and simple to use in most games.

But Library was selected for the base set! And I have never had a single new player ask me to explain the text or explain why they would ever want to set aside cards they bought specifically for their deck!

[NoMoreFun]

Treasure box that still stands on its own:
* New looters, with brand new Ruins (new effects, possibly on cards referencing expansions)
* A different "spoils" that's added to the spoils pile. Mix the 2 together if playing with a Dark Ages spoils gainer.
* Cards and events that involve potion costs,  and a new stack of cards that give potion (that isn't a treasure costing 4 that does nothing else). Some clever way to add to alchemy without doubling it or requiring it.
* 5 new prize cards with new cards/events to earn them. Mix with the tournament prizes when playing with both.
* Coin and VP tokens, with new uses for them (eg putting then on top of supply piles)
* Cards that stand on their own, but refer to mats with the same name as existing cards (eg Haven, Trade Route) with special interactions.

Basically an expansion that rewards and modifies previous expansions,  but doesn't require them.

Lots of ideas for mechanics out there but the old ones still have a lot of potential.

[NoMoreFun]

"Same name, different card" could be an interesting mechanic in general, or blurring the lines between name and type (eg a card that's "Action/Silver" or "Victory/Madman")

[Seprix]

I like the idea for more Prize Cards, but that should be a promo card. Everything else is something Donald can't do because Rio Grande probably won't let him/Donald won't do it because it requires owning other sets beyond the base cards.

[Donald X.]

I'm very interested in hearing people's opinions on what makes a card "simple" or "complex". Is there any middle ground between the two, or is each card one or the other? Obviously opinions will differ, and that's fine.

Originally the cards were all just one concept. And man they were one concept. I felt like +$2 and +2 Cards were things for a card to do when the card concept was giving you $2 or 2 cards. So they didn't even do that extra.

It turned out they had to have those +'s. An effect like Militia just isn't good enough by itself; it needs resources. So the Dominion you know has +'s piled onto whatever other things.

There are different ways to measure complexity. Mark Rosewater has a good essay on this somewhere. Wait I have the internet right here. http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/172. He talks about some Magic-specific stuff; Dominion doesn't so much have board complexity, I mean cards could hypothetically stack up "while in play" abilities that affected decisions in tricky ways but there sure isn't much of that. Anyway there's an article you can read if you want.

So looking at that and just remembering what I tend to say, we can point at some different things that make a Dominion card complex, aside from strategic complexity which we are just generally happy to have.

- It has a lot of words.
- It's hard to understand what it does.
- It does something counterintuitive.
- It does multiple things.

These are all separate. Golem is wordy, Chancellor counterintuitive (which is to say, hard to understand why you want to do that), but neither has the other quality. I guess being hard to understand probably tends to mean having lots of words. Anyway you know. There are these different issues. And they all matter.

- You sit down to play, here read 10 cards. Having lots of words is intimidating, anti-fun. It's fine once you learn the cards but starts out bad.
- If you can't figure out how a card works you will get into rules arguments and have less fun. There's the rulebook but who has time for it. Maybe you will end up playing it wrong in a way that breaks the game; Ferry was an example when it said "kingdom card" instead of "action."
- People will just sit there staring at counterintuitive cards, trying to see what they're missing. They don't like it.
- You can only keep so much in your head. You already can't keep 10 cards in your head. Cards that do multiple things are harder to learn and then harder to remember.

There are obv. cards I've blown it on all these ways. And there are cards where it was intentional because I thought the card was worth it.

[Asper]

As someone who hoped for Adventures having simple cards, i think i'm happy. Most Reserves have a single concept, plus the Reserve aspect (which you learn once), and are therefore fine to me. Travellers are complex, but don't have a condition like Hermit or Urchin, which simplifies the individual cards. Other complex cards (in my book) are Storyteller and Artificer, the last of which is a Peddler, a discard-for-benefit, a gainer and - easy to forget - a topdecker. I always forget when a gainer topdecks cards. It happens with Develop, Graverobber... somehow i feel it should count as an additional "thing" a card does simply because it's so easy to forget. Messenger is also a bit complex, with the Chancellor, the gain and the "first buy" restriction. But that's iall for me. None of the events i remember feel actually complex to me. They shake up the game, but that alone doesn't make them complex.

I think Dark Ages, and even some cards in Guilds (Doctor, Herald) were worse.

[werothegreat]

- You can only keep so much in your head. You already can't keep 10 cards in your head.

<.<

I may or may not have every Dominion card memorized and sorted mentally into appropriate categories...

[Witherweaver]

- You can only keep so much in your head. You already can't keep 10 cards in your head.

<.<

I may or may not have every Dominion card memorized and sorted mentally into appropriate categories...

But newly sitting down and reading cards for the first time, you don't. 

[mameluke]

I'd like to see another card or two that can gain things from the trash. Rogue and Graverobber are fine and all, but with more and more expansions it's pretty rare to see them in a game, yet there are more and more trashers.

Maybe something like: Trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to the cost in coins of the trashed card. The card comes from either the supply or the trash.