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Author Topic: Fixing Dominion... again.  (Read 13714 times)

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Asper

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Fixing Dominion... again.
« on: July 08, 2015, 07:17:36 am »
+6

Here are some mockups i made that can be used to replace some original cards that strike me as being off-balance or boring. I completely removed Rebuild and, by genetic engineering, made one card out of Chancellor and Woodcutter. With the absence of Vanilla Woodcutter, it would be possible to cost Nomad Camp at $3 and give a buy to Fortune Teller, both of which i considered but decided against. If you start doing stuff like this, you'll go on with removing the attack from Scrying Pool, or the passing from Masquerade, and then it's just a small step until Dinosaurs return and we have to allow them to marry.

Be warned that Spy STILL is slow and annoying, but fixing that is beyond the scope of what i'm trying to do here. Also, with the last bonus below the text, it's not as base-friendly as it used to be. The same goes for the Woodcutter replacement i threw in, but hey, instead of two awful attacks it now has one decent one, and instead of an awful +Buy for $3 it has a... mediocre one? So, everybody wins. I just wish there was free Pizza to celebrate.

Let me know what you think.


Note: Cards in OP have been updated

« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 09:13:51 pm by Asper »
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2015, 09:56:13 am »
+2

Not bad (also you had time putting illustrations instead of plain text, no ? ^^) ! Would you play with these IRL ?

Chancellor : still not exciting but fine as a remix
Woodcutter : Steward with no trashing option... looks redundant, but still better than the original Woodcutter !
Spy : I would have made the vision+attack effect the same as original and put the +1 card after, no matter if it's not base friendly
Thief : Attack is perfect (a bit heavily worded), but I'd have added only +$1 not to make that card too exciting !
Rebuild : Fine but too different from original !
Scout : I'd rather have added a coin to Wishing Well, but it's decent on Scout too.
Feast : maybe "you may put it on top of your deck" would be better, for late-game Duchies... no ?
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Burning Skull

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2015, 10:09:39 am »
+4

Scout : I'd rather have added a coin to Wishing Well, but it's decent on Scout too.
A plus coin to a Wishing Well? Why not plus coin to a Hunting Party or to a Lab? WW is already more then fine. And plus coin on Scout doen't make it significantly stronger, barring some edgecases.
P.S. sorry for possible mistakes in spelling, shitballs drunk

Mr Anderson

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2015, 10:28:49 am »
+2

I think you could add +1 Buy to Scout instead of +, since you would need it more often as an engine component with a little bit increased utility in the end game rather than a copper + bonus in Slog games.
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2015, 10:57:23 am »
+1

Spy : I would have made the vision+attack effect the same as original and put the +1 card after, no matter if it's not base friendly

I have tried a card that gives the effect on Spy without the attack portion, and it works for $2 (being sometimes better and sometimes worse than Vagrant). The important thing is that the decision on whether to discard or keep a card loses room for guessing and assuming. Instead of "will the next card be better or worse than this Copper", you just choose the better revealed card to discard for opponents and the better to put in your hand for you.

Thief : Attack is perfect (a bit heavily worded), but I'd have added only +$1 not to make that card too exciting !

I only changed a single sentence in the middle, the rest is like the original. That early wording looks weird, right?

Either way, i figured the fact that Noble Brigand could also attack engines (clogging them) justified giving two coins instead of one on Thief. Sure, Thief can steal Coppers, Platinums and Kingdom Treasure, but this potential use case doesn't sum up to me as bigger than Noble Brigend always being able to attack on buy. As Noble Brigand is still not strong, and Thief can still be more easily avoided, i figured it was fine. It's not like the second coin is actually needed, though, so admittedly it's more than absolutely necessary.

Rebuild : Fine but too different from original !

I took this from Donald's retrospective comment on Rebuild, where he explains which card he would have put into Dark Ages had he known how overpowered the original is. He mentioned it being well playtested and balanced. As i stated in the OP, i completely scrapped original Rebuild.

Feast : maybe "you may put it on top of your deck" would be better, for late-game Duchies... no ?

Good point. That's better :)

About your question, probably not. I have no acceptable way of replacing cards with mockups that don't feel worse than original cards. If i had, probably yes for Rebuild, Scout and Spy. Not sure about the others. It's not like i'm the only one playing.
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 11:01:34 am »
0

Woodcutter : Steward with no trashing option... looks redundant, but still better than the original Woodcutter !

Oops, i didn't think about Steward. Admittedly, this idea was added on rather short notice, i didn't think about it much.


I think you could add +1 Buy to Scout instead of +, since you would need it more often as an engine component with a little bit increased utility in the end game rather than a copper + bonus in Slog games.

Hmm... I see the point of making it an endgame card, but a buy on its own strikes me as rather weak. Maybe for a lower price.
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Burning Skull

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 11:08:59 am »
+2

I think Scout would be more than fine at 3 and with plus one card after the rearrangement.

Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 11:14:50 am »
+1

I think Scout would be more than fine at 3 and with plus one card after the rearrangement.

I'm getting the feeling that this would bring it too close to Cartographer. I mean, it can' discard, but part of the junk is removed either way. Also, with your suggestion, the immediate bonus of a single Scout is better than the immediate bonus of a Cartographer. Considering the 4-5 gap, i'd be hesistant to cost such a card at even $4.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 11:24:12 am »
+6

The version of Scout is great. I've had a chance to play several games with it now. In my most recent game, the +$1 was the difference between a $7 hand and an $8 hand twice.

Spy's main issue is that it's slow to resolve. This version is ever slower to resolve (IRL) because you can't just tell an opponent to always put back that Estate.

This version of Chancellor is the one I would have made with my Dominion time machine, but it's less special now that Messenger exists. (I have only myself to blame here.)

I think this version of Thief is probably way too strong on the boards where it's strong (no virtual +$) and still worse than Silver on other boards.

Feast and Woodcutter aren't really worth fixing in my opinion. They don't bring much to the strategy space with or without these fixes.

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 01:15:20 pm by LastFootnote »
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Burning Skull

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 11:25:43 am »
+1

I think the better comparison would be to a Vagrant. And of the power level, it definitely needs some playtesting.

LastFootnote

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 11:37:50 am »
+2

If you start doing stuff like this, you'll go on with removing the attack from Scrying Pool, or the passing from Masquerade, and then it's just a small step until Dinosaurs return and we have to allow them to marry.

I've removed the attack from my Scrying Pools, partly because it's too strong and partly because it's not really part of the card's concept. For Masquerade, passing cards is the concept, so it would be a bit strange to remove that.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2015, 12:54:56 pm »
+2

I think the better comparison would be to a Vagrant. And of the power level, it definitely needs some playtesting.

I don't think so.  Scout reaches a lot further, and that single targeted draw is powerful.  It's a lot of utility.  Even if you make it a regular cantrip, it would be more comparable to Cartographer.
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2015, 01:43:32 pm »
0

Spy's main issue is that it's slow to resolve. This version is ever slower to resolve (IRL) because you can't just tell an opponent to always put back that Estate.

That's true, but on the other hand the attack is now meaningful each time and you have less to think about. Probably you are right, though. It's a power improvement, but doesn't make the game experience better.

This version of Chancellor is the one I would have made with my Dominion time machine, but it's less special now that Messenger exists. (I have only myself to blame here.)

How so? Did you suggest adding the +Buy to Donald?

I think this version of Thief is probably way too strong on the boards where it's strong (no virtual +$) and still worse than Silver on other boards.

Hmm... Good point. Thief really suffers from boards where you can circumvent Treasures and buffing it makes it too good on boards where you can't. I guess i can live with Noble Brigand being a practically-fixed Thief.

Feast and Woodcutter aren't really worth fixing in my opinion. They don't bring much to the strategy space with or without these fixes.

I see that for Woodcutter, but i'm not sure Feast is totally uninteresting in itself. The idea to have a cheap card that you can use as a stepping stone for a better card seems nice to me. Obviously my fix isn't good enough at doing this, either. Hmm... What if it gained cards to your hand? This way, it could serve as a terminal Silver, or as pseudo-BoM with enough actions. Duchies also would still work without clogging your deck, while gaining action cards without an action to spend would still not be better. Obviously this shifts the focus a lot.

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.

Hmm... Maybe i should add it to my playtests, too. It's not like the other cards in that its effect doesn't lead to issues with an existing card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2015, 04:00:27 pm »
+1

This version of Chancellor is the one I would have made with my Dominion time machine, but it's less special now that Messenger exists. (I have only myself to blame here.)

How so? Did you suggest adding the +Buy to Donald?

Yup, it's in the secret history and everything.

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.

Hmm... Maybe i should add it to my playtests, too. It's not like the other cards in that its effect doesn't lead to issues with an existing card.

I just sleeve the new versions over the old ones; no conflict.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 10:45:25 am by LastFootnote »
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2015, 04:24:30 pm »
0

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.

Hmm... Maybe i should add it to my playtests, too. It's not like the other cards in that its effect doesn't lead to issues with an existing card.

I just sleeve the new versions over the old ones; no conflict.

By that i mean that you could use this alternate version of Rebuild parallel to and without replacing the existing one, as they are not the same concept and neither is strictly better or worse than the other.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2015, 05:53:35 pm »
+3

The version of Rebuild I've been using for a while is the same as this except with +1 Action for $5, and it works very well.

Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2015, 05:58:06 pm »
0

Whoah. I just realized i swapped the order of +1 Buy and +2$ on Chancellor. I KNEW something was off...
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2015, 06:04:07 pm »
+2

The version of Rebuild I've been using for a while is the same as this except with +1 Action for $5, and it works very well.

Whoa, that sounds way better than the terminal version. Good thinking!
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 07:46:16 pm »
+3

The version of Rebuild I've been using for a while is the same as this except with +1 Action for $5, and it works very well.

I was gonna say the exact same thing, and even suggested it to Asper prior to reading all posts in this thread. With the +action it would feel more akin to the original and it would have self-synergy, as you could play a second Rebuild to upgrade the card you topdecked with the first even further!
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ancientcampus

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2015, 12:26:03 pm »
+1

The changes look fun!

I agree that the $4 rebuild looks like fun, but as a new card, not as a fix to the old one.

Feast...<snip> The idea to have a cheap card that you can use as a stepping stone for a better card seems nice to me. Obviously my fix isn't good enough at doing this, either. Hmm... What if it gained cards to your hand? This way, it could serve as a terminal Silver, or as pseudo-BoM with enough actions. Duchies also would still work without clogging your deck, while gaining action cards without an action to spend would still not be better. Obviously this shifts the focus a lot.
That sounds... pretty decent, actually. It'd require some playtesting to see if $4 or $5 is better, but I'd definitely enjoy playing with it.

I like the new scout.

Quote
I've removed the attack from my Scrying Pools, partly because it's too strong and partly because it's not really part of the card's concept. For Masquerade, passing cards is the concept, so it would be a bit strange to remove that.
That's well-said. I agree, I think scrying Pool's attack slows down the game and is kind of "irrelevant". I guess it's there because it is an interesting mechanic to have when combined with a few other cards, but too weak/boring to give on its own.

Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2015, 01:02:45 pm »
+1

So, second try for Feast and Rebuild:



Actually, i'm kind of curious how this version of Feast plays. I'll annoy Co0kieL0rd to test it with me >:D

Also i changed Chancellor in the OP to the correct order of +Buy and +$.
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Seprix

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2015, 01:03:31 pm »
+1

Posting here so I get updates via new replies to posts.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2015, 01:20:23 pm »
+2

I think the top-decking version of Feast might be better.  You'll usually want it for picking up $5 actions early, before you have villages.  Putting it in hand is worse for that.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2015, 01:20:53 pm »
+2

I would put both the +1 Card and +1 Action of Spy under the rest of the text. I think it would look better to have the vanilla bonuses in one place.
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion... again.
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2015, 01:23:14 pm »
0

I think the top-decking version of Feast might be better.  You'll usually want it for picking up $5 actions early, before you have villages.  Putting it in hand is worse for that.

ChocophileBenj pointed out its use as a Duchy gainer, and i wanted it to stay useable for this. Of course you are right, this makes it more of a flexible engine piece than a stepping stone. Hmm... Allright, "you may put it on top of your deck" is nicer.
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