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[Asper]

Here are some mockups i made that can be used to replace some original cards that strike me as being off-balance or boring. I completely removed Rebuild and, by genetic engineering, made one card out of Chancellor and Woodcutter. With the absence of Vanilla Woodcutter, it would be possible to cost Nomad Camp at $3 and give a buy to Fortune Teller, both of which i considered but decided against. If you start doing stuff like this, you'll go on with removing the attack from Scrying Pool, or the passing from Masquerade, and then it's just a small step until Dinosaurs return and we have to allow them to marry.

Be warned that Spy STILL is slow and annoying, but fixing that is beyond the scope of what i'm trying to do here. Also, with the last bonus below the text, it's not as base-friendly as it used to be. The same goes for the Woodcutter replacement i threw in, but hey, instead of two awful attacks it now has one decent one, and instead of an awful +Buy for $3 it has a... mediocre one? So, everybody wins. I just wish there was free Pizza to celebrate.

Let me know what you think.


Note: Cards in OP have been updated

[ChocophileBenj]

Not bad (also you had time putting illustrations instead of plain text, no ? ^^) ! Would you play with these IRL ?

Chancellor : still not exciting but fine as a remix
Woodcutter : Steward with no trashing option... looks redundant, but still better than the original Woodcutter !
Spy : I would have made the vision+attack effect the same as original and put the +1 card after, no matter if it's not base friendly
Thief : Attack is perfect (a bit heavily worded), but I'd have added only +$1 not to make that card too exciting !
Rebuild : Fine but too different from original !
Scout : I'd rather have added a coin to Wishing Well, but it's decent on Scout too.
Feast : maybe "you may put it on top of your deck" would be better, for late-game Duchies... no ?

[Burning Skull]

Scout : I'd rather have added a coin to Wishing Well, but it's decent on Scout too.

A plus coin to a Wishing Well? Why not plus coin to a Hunting Party or to a Lab? WW is already more then fine. And plus coin on Scout doen't make it significantly stronger, barring some edgecases.
P.S. sorry for possible mistakes in spelling, shitballs drunk

[Mr Anderson]

I think you could add +1 Buy to Scout instead of +, since you would need it more often as an engine component with a little bit increased utility in the end game rather than a copper + bonus in Slog games.

[Asper]

Spy : I would have made the vision+attack effect the same as original and put the +1 card after, no matter if it's not base friendly

I have tried a card that gives the effect on Spy without the attack portion, and it works for $2 (being sometimes better and sometimes worse than Vagrant). The important thing is that the decision on whether to discard or keep a card loses room for guessing and assuming. Instead of "will the next card be better or worse than this Copper", you just choose the better revealed card to discard for opponents and the better to put in your hand for you.

Thief : Attack is perfect (a bit heavily worded), but I'd have added only +$1 not to make that card too exciting !

I only changed a single sentence in the middle, the rest is like the original. That early wording looks weird, right?

Either way, i figured the fact that Noble Brigand could also attack engines (clogging them) justified giving two coins instead of one on Thief. Sure, Thief can steal Coppers, Platinums and Kingdom Treasure, but this potential use case doesn't sum up to me as bigger than Noble Brigend always being able to attack on buy. As Noble Brigand is still not strong, and Thief can still be more easily avoided, i figured it was fine. It's not like the second coin is actually needed, though, so admittedly it's more than absolutely necessary.

Rebuild : Fine but too different from original !

I took this from Donald's retrospective comment on Rebuild, where he explains which card he would have put into Dark Ages had he known how overpowered the original is. He mentioned it being well playtested and balanced. As i stated in the OP, i completely scrapped original Rebuild.

Feast : maybe "you may put it on top of your deck" would be better, for late-game Duchies... no ?

Good point. That's better

About your question, probably not. I have no acceptable way of replacing cards with mockups that don't feel worse than original cards. If i had, probably yes for Rebuild, Scout and Spy. Not sure about the others. It's not like i'm the only one playing.

[Asper]

Woodcutter : Steward with no trashing option... looks redundant, but still better than the original Woodcutter !

Oops, i didn't think about Steward. Admittedly, this idea was added on rather short notice, i didn't think about it much.

I think you could add +1 Buy to Scout instead of +, since you would need it more often as an engine component with a little bit increased utility in the end game rather than a copper + bonus in Slog games.

Hmm... I see the point of making it an endgame card, but a buy on its own strikes me as rather weak. Maybe for a lower price.

[Burning Skull]

I think Scout would be more than fine at 3 and with plus one card after the rearrangement.

[Asper]

I think Scout would be more than fine at 3 and with plus one card after the rearrangement.

I'm getting the feeling that this would bring it too close to Cartographer. I mean, it can' discard, but part of the junk is removed either way. Also, with your suggestion, the immediate bonus of a single Scout is better than the immediate bonus of a Cartographer. Considering the 4-5 gap, i'd be hesistant to cost such a card at even $4.

[LastFootnote]

The version of Scout is great. I've had a chance to play several games with it now. In my most recent game, the +$1 was the difference between a $7 hand and an $8 hand twice.

Spy's main issue is that it's slow to resolve. This version is ever slower to resolve (IRL) because you can't just tell an opponent to always put back that Estate.

This version of Chancellor is the one I would have made with my Dominion time machine, but it's less special now that Messenger exists. (I have only myself to blame here.)

I think this version of Thief is probably way too strong on the boards where it's strong (no virtual +$) and still worse than Silver on other boards.

Feast and Woodcutter aren't really worth fixing in my opinion. They don't bring much to the strategy space with or without these fixes.

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.

[Burning Skull]

I think the better comparison would be to a Vagrant. And of the power level, it definitely needs some playtesting.

[LastFootnote]

If you start doing stuff like this, you'll go on with removing the attack from Scrying Pool, or the passing from Masquerade, and then it's just a small step until Dinosaurs return and we have to allow them to marry.

I've removed the attack from my Scrying Pools, partly because it's too strong and partly because it's not really part of the card's concept. For Masquerade, passing cards is the concept, so it would be a bit strange to remove that.

[eHalcyon]

I think the better comparison would be to a Vagrant. And of the power level, it definitely needs some playtesting.

I don't think so.  Scout reaches a lot further, and that single targeted draw is powerful.  It's a lot of utility.  Even if you make it a regular cantrip, it would be more comparable to Cartographer.

[Asper]

Spy's main issue is that it's slow to resolve. This version is ever slower to resolve (IRL) because you can't just tell an opponent to always put back that Estate.

That's true, but on the other hand the attack is now meaningful each time and you have less to think about. Probably you are right, though. It's a power improvement, but doesn't make the game experience better.

This version of Chancellor is the one I would have made with my Dominion time machine, but it's less special now that Messenger exists. (I have only myself to blame here.)

How so? Did you suggest adding the +Buy to Donald?

I think this version of Thief is probably way too strong on the boards where it's strong (no virtual +$) and still worse than Silver on other boards.

Hmm... Good point. Thief really suffers from boards where you can circumvent Treasures and buffing it makes it too good on boards where you can't. I guess i can live with Noble Brigand being a practically-fixed Thief.

Feast and Woodcutter aren't really worth fixing in my opinion. They don't bring much to the strategy space with or without these fixes.

I see that for Woodcutter, but i'm not sure Feast is totally uninteresting in itself. The idea to have a cheap card that you can use as a stepping stone for a better card seems nice to me. Obviously my fix isn't good enough at doing this, either. Hmm... What if it gained cards to your hand? This way, it could serve as a terminal Silver, or as pseudo-BoM with enough actions. Duchies also would still work without clogging your deck, while gaining action cards without an action to spend would still not be better. Obviously this shifts the focus a lot.

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.

Hmm... Maybe i should add it to my playtests, too. It's not like the other cards in that its effect doesn't lead to issues with an existing card.

[LastFootnote]

This version of Chancellor is the one I would have made with my Dominion time machine, but it's less special now that Messenger exists. (I have only myself to blame here.)

How so? Did you suggest adding the +Buy to Donald?

Yup, it's in the secret history and everything.

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.

Hmm... Maybe i should add it to my playtests, too. It's not like the other cards in that its effect doesn't lead to issues with an existing card.

I just sleeve the new versions over the old ones; no conflict.

[Asper]

Despite having printed and sleeved it, I don't think I've tested the new Rebuild yet. I'll try to do that soon.

Hmm... Maybe i should add it to my playtests, too. It's not like the other cards in that its effect doesn't lead to issues with an existing card.

I just sleeve the new versions over the old ones; no conflict.

By that i mean that you could use this alternate version of Rebuild parallel to and without replacing the existing one, as they are not the same concept and neither is strictly better or worse than the other.

[LibraryAdventurer]

The version of Rebuild I've been using for a while is the same as this except with +1 Action for $5, and it works very well.

[Asper]

Whoah. I just realized i swapped the order of +1 Buy and +2$ on Chancellor. I KNEW something was off...

[LastFootnote]

The version of Rebuild I've been using for a while is the same as this except with +1 Action for $5, and it works very well.

Whoa, that sounds way better than the terminal version. Good thinking!

[Co0kieL0rd]

The version of Rebuild I've been using for a while is the same as this except with +1 Action for $5, and it works very well.

I was gonna say the exact same thing, and even suggested it to Asper prior to reading all posts in this thread. With the +action it would feel more akin to the original and it would have self-synergy, as you could play a second Rebuild to upgrade the card you topdecked with the first even further!

[ancientcampus]

The changes look fun!

I agree that the $4 rebuild looks like fun, but as a new card, not as a fix to the old one.

Feast...<snip> The idea to have a cheap card that you can use as a stepping stone for a better card seems nice to me. Obviously my fix isn't good enough at doing this, either. Hmm... What if it gained cards to your hand? This way, it could serve as a terminal Silver, or as pseudo-BoM with enough actions. Duchies also would still work without clogging your deck, while gaining action cards without an action to spend would still not be better. Obviously this shifts the focus a lot.

That sounds... pretty decent, actually. It'd require some playtesting to see if $4 or $5 is better, but I'd definitely enjoy playing with it.

I like the new scout.

I've removed the attack from my Scrying Pools, partly because it's too strong and partly because it's not really part of the card's concept. For Masquerade, passing cards is the concept, so it would be a bit strange to remove that.

That's well-said. I agree, I think scrying Pool's attack slows down the game and is kind of "irrelevant". I guess it's there because it is an interesting mechanic to have when combined with a few other cards, but too weak/boring to give on its own.

[Asper]

So, second try for Feast and Rebuild:



Actually, i'm kind of curious how this version of Feast plays. I'll annoy Co0kieL0rd to test it with me

Also i changed Chancellor in the OP to the correct order of +Buy and +$.

[Seprix]

Posting here so I get updates via new replies to posts.

[eHalcyon]

I think the top-decking version of Feast might be better.  You'll usually want it for picking up $5 actions early, before you have villages.  Putting it in hand is worse for that.

[LastFootnote]

I would put both the +1 Card and +1 Action of Spy under the rest of the text. I think it would look better to have the vanilla bonuses in one place.

[Asper]

I think the top-decking version of Feast might be better.  You'll usually want it for picking up $5 actions early, before you have villages.  Putting it in hand is worse for that.

ChocophileBenj pointed out its use as a Duchy gainer, and i wanted it to stay useable for this. Of course you are right, this makes it more of a flexible engine piece than a stepping stone. Hmm... Allright, "you may put it on top of your deck" is nicer.

[LastFootnote]

I think the top-decking version of Feast might be better.  You'll usually want it for picking up $5 actions early, before you have villages.  Putting it in hand is worse for that.

ChocophileBenj pointed out its use as a Duchy gainer, and i wanted it to stay useable for this. Of course you are right, this makes it more of a flexible engine piece than a stepping stone. Hmm... Allright, "you may put it on top of your deck" is nicer.

One easy solutions is "Gain a card costing up to $5, putting it into your hand or on top of your deck." You don't need a "you may" since it's very rare that gaining a card into your hand is worse than into your discard pile.

[Asper]

Should i edit the OP when i do new versions? I suppose it would make it harder to track what we are talking about, so i'll add new versions in their own posts for now.


Two alternate wordings for Spy. Both do the same (EDGE CASE ALERT: -1 Card token!), with the first having a much shorter wording but Vanilla Bonuses below, while the second is longer but base-fit.

Edit: On second thought, the first is so, so much shorter that it actually strikes me as simpler even though the bonuses are below it.




Also, finally the optionally topdecking Feast:



Also, that guy at the left of the table gives me the creeps...

I think the top-decking version of Feast might be better.  You'll usually want it for picking up $5 actions early, before you have villages.  Putting it in hand is worse for that.

ChocophileBenj pointed out its use as a Duchy gainer, and i wanted it to stay useable for this. Of course you are right, this makes it more of a flexible engine piece than a stepping stone. Hmm... Allright, "you may put it on top of your deck" is nicer.

One easy solutions is "Gain a card costing up to $5, putting it into your hand or on top of your deck." You don't need a "you may" since it's very rare that gaining a card into your hand is worse than into your discard pile.

Hmm... I this makes it a bit more flexible than absolutely necessary. I'd either have the gain to hand, no questions asked, or non-mandatory to the top of your deck. I think both would be nice cards, but allowing topdecking seems to be closer to original Feast. See above.

[eHalcyon]

Why would you not use the concise version of Spy?

[Drab Emordnilap]

Why would you not use the concise version of Spy?

Some people don't aesthetically like the vanilla bonuses being below the card text. The second version avoids that.

[LastFootnote]

Why would you not use the concise version of Spy?

Some people don't aesthetically like the vanilla bonuses being below the card text. The second version avoids that.

Not worth it.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Some people don't aesthetically like the vanilla bonuses being below the card text. The second version avoids that.

Not worth it.

Hey, man, I'm not arguing a side here; I was just answering the question. They can't all be the best aesthetic decision ever.

[eHalcyon]

Why would you not use the concise version of Spy?

Some people don't aesthetically like the vanilla bonuses being below the card text. The second version avoids that.

If it's good enough for Oracle, it's good enough for me.

[LastFootnote]

This version of Chancellor is the one I would have made with my Dominion time machine, but it's less special now that Messenger exists. (I have only myself to blame here.)

How so? Did you suggest adding the +Buy to Donald?

Yup, it's in the secret history and everything.

Whoops, I misread this before. I didn't suggest the +1 Buy; I suggested the Chancellor effect. On Messenger, I mean.

[LibraryAdventurer]

After reading the thread about Adventurer, I wanted to make a version of it that not only balances it, but also makes it more interesting. My original mod for Adventurer was to make it cost $5 and otherwise be the same as the original, but that would still be on the weak side and uninteresting. So while we're modding, we may as well make it more interesting as well.

Adventurern mod2
Cost 4 (or 3?) - Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 treasure cards. Put those treasures in your hand and discard the other revealed cards.
-
You may not buy this unless you have at least one gold or platinum in play.

Adventurer mod3
Cost 6 - Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 treasure cards costing at least $2. Put those treasures in your hand and discard the other revealed cards.

Adventurer mod4
Cost 5 - Action
+1 Buy.
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 treasure cards. Put those treasures in your hand and discard the other revealed cards.

Adventurer mod5
Cost 5 - Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 treasure cards. Put those treasures in your hand and discard the other revealed cards.
-
When you buy this, trash a treasure card from play and gain a treasure costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.

I always thought Mine's effect would be cool as an on-gain/on-buy ability, and it would fit well with Adventurer I think.

I didn't want to add +action because that seems to go against what the card is about, since it can't draw actions anyway.
(I thought I'd necro an old relevant thread instead of starting another new one about this.)

[schadd]

other ones that i will desanctify this thread with

mine: $5 action
trash a card from your hand. if it was a copper, gain a gold. if it was a silver, gain a card costing up to $5, putting it into your hand.

wouldn't it be fun if the weird treasure-warping card from base was good? copper to gold isn't actually that much of a doozy and people get to figure that out from the start; silver to $5 is pretty great also, but it has to be a silver. maybe the person who line this up with village and silver first has a big advantage, but that'll just prepare you for the other 17 expansions. sometimes it'll trash an estate, that's a fun decision. throw the deed into the mineshaft, manservant, i can't stand this neighborhood.

counting house: $5 action
look through your discard pile, reveal any number of copper cards from it, and put them into your hand. you may discard up to 4 coppers from your hand; +1 card for each copper discarded.

the problem with big counting house games is that it's almost impossible to do an engine through them. this can't have +1 action without costing more unfortunately because then it is a better lab, usually you'll have at least two coppers to pick up.

cultist: $5 action
+2 cards
you may play a cultist from your hand.
if you did not play this using another cultist, each other player gains a ruins
_
when you trash this, +3 cards.

there aren't really a lot of good ways to word the thing i wanted to say, and there's even fewer ways to have a fun cultist game. games where you trash all the ruins end up being pretty fun, most of them you don't. you can still spend any spare actions to give the other guy more ruins, so now cultist has any decisions associated with it.

masquerade: $3 action
+2 cards
each player passes a card from her hand to her left.
you may trash a card from your hand.

masquerade's fine. king's court/discard makes for a fun game, i think? i haven't actually done one, but it seems like a proper race to the golden thing that has several roadblocks and mindgames and the like. this is an okay card to be the

Code: [Select]

best one there ever was

[Seprix]

I'll post my 'fixes' soon.

[schadd]

counting house: $5 action
look through your discard pile, reveal any number of copper cards from it, and put them into your hand. you may discard up to 4 coppers from your hand; +1 card for each copper discarded.

the problem with big counting house games is that it's almost impossible to do an engine through them. this can't have +1 action without costing more unfortunately because then it is a better lab, usually you'll have at least two coppers to pick up.

whoops that's super good. i forgot that discarded coppers go back into the discard pile, thus this is a hunting grounds a very lot of the time. how about 2. maybe 3 to let it join the armada of $5 smithy+

[pacovf]

Adventurer
5$ Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Treasure cards. Discard the other cards. Play those Treasure cards in either order. You may trash a Treasure card from play.

There, self-synergy.

[Roadrunner7671]

Counting House
$5 Action
Look through your discard pile, reveal any number of cards from it and put them into your hand.

[Gveoniz]

Counting House
$5? - Action
The player to your left name a card from the supply. Look through your discard pile, reveal any number of copies of the named card from it and put it into your hand.  If you didn't reveal any, either you or all other players gain a copy of the named card, your choice.

Alternatively:
Counting House
$5? - Action
The player to your left name a card from the supply. Look through your discard pile, reveal any number of copies of the named card from it and put it into your hand.  If you didn't reveal any, either you or all other players gain two copies of the named card, your choice.

[navical]

Adventurer
$6 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Treasure cards. Put those Treasure cards into your hand. You may return the first two Action cards you revealed in this way to the top of your deck, in either order. Discard the other cards.

[ConMan]

Adventurer
5$ Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Treasure cards. Discard the other cards. Play those Treasure cards in either order. You may trash a Treasure card from play.

There, self-synergy.

So the new Adventurer needs a Loan every time he goes on a quest?

[gkrieg13]

Counting House
$5? - Action
The player to your left name a card from the supply. Look through your discard pile, reveal any number of copies of the named card from it and put it into your hand.  If you didn't reveal any, either you or all other players gain a copy of the named card, your choice.

Alternatively:
Counting House
$5? - Action
The player to your left name a card from the supply. Look through your discard pile, reveal any number of copies of the named card from it and put it into your hand.  If you didn't reveal any, either you or all other players gain two copies of the named card, your choice.

The bottom one sounds like a very interesting card, but also seems extremely not like what Counting House is originally supposed to be.  Cool new card though