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[Twistedarcher]

#287 UoS votes Faust for pushing PR/VT discussion. Second time he's voted for setup stuff. Seems to be scumhunting based on setup, not on reads. NOTE to self -- lookback and see where he's had actual reads.

My quick scan of all of UoS' posts is definitely enough for a Vote: UoS . All of his gameplay has been centered around roles and setups (not talking about them explicitly, but rather voting and suspecting the people (XP, Faust) who have driven discussion in that direction). These read as more policy positions than actual reads though. He's been able to skate by D1 based solely on driving XP and Faust, rather than commenting on the actual gameplay-driven wagons (Seprix, Gkrieg come to mind, maybe others?) He's definitely not participating in any parts of the game that require him to put down opinions and I think is playing a very background game in terms of actually working towards a correct lynch based on gameplay, even while maintaining high activity levels.

(Also, XP over Gkrieg is probably clear, given his past suspicion).

I know this might not be a feasible lynch and I'm definitely going to move my vote elsewhere if it's not going to happen today, but I'm interested in what others have to say. It looks like he's gotten mostly town reads thus far.

[chairs]

I'd agree with you if I didn't think that's exactly what town!UoS does on D1 in RMM. In fact, that you've pointed out this is what he's been doing almost leans me more town on him than null

I like XP > Kriegermeister, and whoever SS votes for over anything else because he's making a lot of sense to me.

[gkrieg13]

I still feel like xp is town.  But I did think it was weird that he defended chairs in the same post that he also voted for him.  I can understand this coming the other way around i.e. XP says that his PM is worded one way and then chairs says his is the same.  But it doesn't make as much sense to me with chairs talking about his PM first.  So maybe that should tell me that XP is scum but I still feel like he is town.  Now thinking about it more XP is more of a null read for me now.

PPE: 2

[2.71828.....]

Anything is a feasible lynch right now. 

6. Lynch rules vary by the number of players alive.  With 10 or more players alive, the player with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.  Ties are broken by coin flip.  With nine or less players alive, if a majority lynch is not reached by the deadline, no lynch occurs.

I like this from TA.  I need to reread UoS now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

#438 UoS' reads on leading wagons. Definitely leaning XP over Gkrieg NOTE -- ask why, he doesn't explain.

UoS, why XP over Gkrieg?

Here:

I tentatively agree. vote: chairs

XP votes chairs, sheeping Faust's pointing out of the survivor aligned phrasing.  Immediately after this (1 minute) XP explains that the "tentatively" is because his PR PM is worded similarly, but it could also be in the scum PM.  If XP is town, he should be one of the first to notice this and not sheep it, since he's clearly already thought about it when he votes.

Geekrig just seems new to me, not really seeing the case as particularly scummy.

Don't like your narrative of my votes as being based on setup rather than interactions btw.  I'm certainly using theory and setup discussion as a starting point, but my reads are based on what I perceive as the thought process behind them.  For example, I'm townreading SS, but disagree with him as much as I do with Faust.

Possibly silly question: is there something about my posts that makes it hard to understand what I'm saying?  Like does something stylistic cause people to skim?

PPE: 4

[2.71828.....]

Possibly silly question: is there something about my posts that makes it hard to understand what I'm saying?  Like does something stylistic cause people to skim?

I sometimes skim when trying to catch up.  I don't think it is you in general.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

All of his gameplay has been centered around roles and setups (not talking about them explicitly, but rather voting and suspecting the people (XP, Faust) who have driven discussion in that direction).

I mean, that absolutely is my policy position.  But there have been other people talking about roles.  If you look, I'm not voting based on talking about roles, I'm voting based on drawing out the VTs.

I think drawing out VTs is very pro-scum, and something scum could actually get away with here.  It's behavior more likely to come from scum than from town.

[XerxesPraelor]

How was I doing that?

[Twistedarcher]

#438 UoS' reads on leading wagons. Definitely leaning XP over Gkrieg NOTE -- ask why, he doesn't explain.

UoS, why XP over Gkrieg?

Here:

I tentatively agree. vote: chairs

XP votes chairs, sheeping Faust's pointing out of the survivor aligned phrasing.  Immediately after this (1 minute) XP explains that the "tentatively" is because his PR PM is worded similarly, but it could also be in the scum PM.  If XP is town, he should be one of the first to notice this and not sheep it, since he's clearly already thought about it when he votes.

Geekrig just seems new to me, not really seeing the case as particularly scummy.

Don't like your narrative of my votes as being based on setup rather than interactions btw.  I'm certainly using theory and setup discussion as a starting point, but my reads are based on what I perceive as the thought process behind them.  For example, I'm townreading SS, but disagree with him as much as I do with Faust.

Possibly silly question: is there something about my posts that makes it hard to understand what I'm saying?  Like does something stylistic cause people to skim?

PPE: 4

No, I'm not saying that you are basing your votes/reads base on agreements or disagreements on theory. What I'm saying is that almost all of your discussion has been centered around theory. You've pushed XP for him breadcrumb, and pushed Faust for his reaction to Chairs' slip-up. But these two points have been the majority of your discussion for a day, and from what I've seen have centered around the tenet that 'Anything that works towards revealing PRs is scummy'. And while I agree that it's bad, I'd disagree that it's scummy.

Meanwhile, while you've been pushing this, there are large parts of the day that you simply haven't even commented on. Only recently you commented on the gkrieg case. PPE: Even now, you say "Geekrig just seems new to me, not really seeing the case as particularly scummy", which isn't really a concrete opinion. Are you town on him, or are you null? Which parts of the case do you disagree with?

You also haven't had a single post commenting on Seprix, who's been a significant wagon for most of the day. By focusing on/pushing people who are delving into roles, you've been able to get away without comment on the majority of the day's wagons, wagons that are actually based on gameplay and interactions and not on theory.

Does that make sense? I'm fine going through examples of your posts if you want me to!

[2.71828.....]

Ok, I like UoS.  (as town)

1) He thinks giving passes out is ridiculous and had his brilliant satirical D1 pass for everyone (except 4 people) post.
2) He thinks discussing PRs D1 is ridiculous
3) He has been consistent and active

Yeah, I don't see much scum there at all.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

How was I doing that?

Okay, I was more talking about Faust there.  Although your first post was a bit of that.

My issue with you is more what I just posted above in response to TA: if you're a town PR, why sheep the fabricated-townslip-is-scum-because-VT-PM-worded-differently opinion on chairs while almost immediately pointing out that your own PM was worded that way?  Especially as you've obviously been thinking about the PM wording.

And the way you say your own PM was worded the same way is hedgy, like you're not sure how PR PMs are worded but don't want to be obvious about it.

PPE: 2

[2.71828.....]

#438 UoS' reads on leading wagons. Definitely leaning XP over Gkrieg NOTE -- ask why, he doesn't explain.

UoS, why XP over Gkrieg?

Here:

I tentatively agree. vote: chairs

XP votes chairs, sheeping Faust's pointing out of the survivor aligned phrasing.  Immediately after this (1 minute) XP explains that the "tentatively" is because his PR PM is worded similarly, but it could also be in the scum PM.  If XP is town, he should be one of the first to notice this and not sheep it, since he's clearly already thought about it when he votes.

Geekrig just seems new to me, not really seeing the case as particularly scummy.

Don't like your narrative of my votes as being based on setup rather than interactions btw.  I'm certainly using theory and setup discussion as a starting point, but my reads are based on what I perceive as the thought process behind them.  For example, I'm townreading SS, but disagree with him as much as I do with Faust.

Possibly silly question: is there something about my posts that makes it hard to understand what I'm saying?  Like does something stylistic cause people to skim?

PPE: 4

No, I'm not saying that you are basing your votes/reads base on agreements or disagreements on theory. What I'm saying is that almost all of your discussion has been centered around theory. You've pushed XP for him breadcrumb, and pushed Faust for his reaction to Chairs' slip-up. But these two points have been the majority of your discussion for a day, and from what I've seen have centered around the tenet that 'Anything that works towards revealing PRs is scummy'. And while I agree that it's bad, I'd disagree that it's scummy.

Meanwhile, while you've been pushing this, there are large parts of the day that you simply haven't even commented on. Only recently you commented on the gkrieg case. PPE: Even now, you say "Geekrig just seems new to me, not really seeing the case as particularly scummy", which isn't really a concrete opinion. Are you town on him, or are you null? Which parts of the case do you disagree with?

You also haven't had a single post commenting on Seprix, who's been a significant wagon for most of the day. By focusing on/pushing people who are delving into roles, you've been able to get away without comment on the majority of the day's wagons, wagons that are actually based on gameplay and interactions and not on theory.

Does that make sense? I'm fine going through examples of your posts if you want me to!

But his theory discussion has been interacting with other players that have opposite views that he does.  He is saying X, Y, and Z and defending it.  What else can he do D1?  Again, town!UoS

[Twistedarcher]

Ok, I like UoS.  (as town)

1) He thinks giving passes out is ridiculous and had his brilliant satirical D1 pass for everyone (except 4 people) post.
2) He thinks discussing PRs D1 is ridiculous
3) He has been consistent and active

Yeah, I don't see much scum there at all.

BS, I agree with all of these, and I'd agree with them regardless of alignment. This is the fakest of fake townreads. (And doesn't reflect badly on UoS at all, only you).

[XerxesPraelor]

How was I doing that?

Okay, I was more talking about Faust there.  Although your first post was a bit of that.

My issue with you is more what I just posted above in response to TA: if you're a town PR, why sheep the fabricated-townslip-is-scum-because-VT-PM-worded-differently opinion on chairs while almost immediately pointing out that your own PM was worded that way?  Especially as you've obviously been thinking about the PM wording.

And the way you say your own PM was worded the same way is hedgy, like you're not sure how PR PMs are worded but don't want to be obvious about it.

PPE: 2

Let's just stop talking on this subject. Find something else scummy, that's not it.

[Twistedarcher]

Want to lynch:
UoS, Seprix, 2.7

Would lynch:
Ghacob, Hockey, gkrieg, EFHW

Would lurker lynch, null reads
Mail-mi, Ichi, WW, EgorK, Hydrad

Won't lynch:
Silverspawn, Faust, Chairs, XP

[Twistedarcher]

Ok, I like UoS.  (as town)

1) He thinks giving passes out is ridiculous and had his brilliant satirical D1 pass for everyone (except 4 people) post.
2) He thinks discussing PRs D1 is ridiculous
3) He has been consistent and active

Yeah, I don't see much scum there at all.

BS, I agree with all of these, and I'd agree with them regardless of alignment. This is the fakest of fake townreads. (And doesn't reflect badly on UoS at all, only you).

UoS, thoughts on this townread? Does it read the same way to you it reads to me?

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, it was probably partly for this purpose, but extreme town points to TA for the reread notes.

[Twistedarcher]

Okay, it was probably partly for this purpose, but extreme town points to TA for the reread notes.

It's definitely more for me than for anyone else, but I figured since I had it all written down, why not. I'd encourage others to do the same if they have the time! It definitely helped me to get opinions from a D1 that was very very very muddled.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Are you town on him (gkrieg), or are you null? Which parts of the case do you disagree with?

I'm null on gkrieg.  He hasn't stood out to me much.  I've just spent several minutes trying to look back and find this case on him, and I'm not seeing what it even is.  I actually like how he reacted to the chairs townslip, so thanks for having me reread this.  Slight townpoints for gkrieg.  So yeah, he was null when I started this reply, now he's slight town.

You also haven't had a single post commenting on Seprix, who's been a significant wagon for most of the day.

I actually keep wanting to address Seprix and deleting it for fear of talking about ongoing games.  I'm not interested in lynching him today.  I think his play has been terribly scummy, but I don't think he's scum.  But it's a meta argument and I'm not sure how firm a grasp I have on his meta.  I certainly don't think he's more likely to be scum than average for any of the stuff he's done today.  And much less likely to be scum than XP or Faust.  But I also don't think people thinking he's scum are scummy, because if I weren't having this meta read, I'd think he was scummy too.  I should probably try to find some finished games of his to serve as examples of what I'm thinking.  I'll try to do that tomorrow if he still looks like a top lynch candidate.

Does that make sense? I'm fine going through examples of your posts if you want me to!

Yes, that's much more clearly explained!  I disagree with you, in that I think I am talking about gameplay.  It's just not the same gameplay that has been a lot of the focus.  But I'm of the opinion that a lot of that is noise.  I've been pushing what I found scummiest.  Just because it doesn't jive with what other people are focussing on doesn't mean I'm wrong.  But yeah, I get what you're saying.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Let's just stop talking on this subject. Find something else scummy, that's not it.

You don't get to tell me why I find you scummy.  That's the reason.

[silverspawn]

#167 ss votes Seprix for being jokey and easy to fabricate posts. I too find Seprix scummy up to this point, but I don't agree with the first point and only partially the second. NOTE -- ask silverspawn for more clarification on what posts are "easy to fabricate"

well if you read the stuff Seprix has posted up to that point, it's little content and a lot of jokes and one liners. A few notes about the flavor. Maybe one or two about the setup. One post saying 'UoS' makes sense (which is a nice thing for scum to do; he is making sense after all, and you pointing it out is non-hedgy while also being content, but super easy to do). I don't think content is necessarily always hard to fabricate, but no-content is usually easy. It can be a town tell if someone has a hard time being dégagé (I just looked this word up) as town, but not in Seprix case

PPE 10

[silverspawn]

as town *scum

[UmbrageOfSnow]

TA copy/pasting his notes is helpful.  I'm glad he did it.

Ok, I like UoS.  (as town)

1) He thinks giving passes out is ridiculous and had his brilliant satirical D1 pass for everyone (except 4 people) post.
2) He thinks discussing PRs D1 is ridiculous
3) He has been consistent and active

Yeah, I don't see much scum there at all.

BS, I agree with all of these, and I'd agree with them regardless of alignment. This is the fakest of fake townreads. (And doesn't reflect badly on UoS at all, only you).

UoS, thoughts on this townread? Does it read the same way to you it reads to me?

I think e's townread is silly.  I think it's a reason not to lynch me, but not a reason to townread me.  I could see it as coming from scum, but the way he said it, in response to your case, doesn't read like fake scum townread so much as "I don't like this case."

It doesn't move him into want-to-lynch territory from me if that's what you're getting at.  If it were a read posted unprompted, I'd agree with you.  But as a response to your case, I can see it coming from town or scum.

[Twistedarcher]

Yeah, I agree that a lot of it was "noise". Definitely catch up a few pages at a time I had a hard time following the cases/reasoning (and a lot of it still isn't clear).

Really I'm fine lynching gkrieg/Seprix not because of the cases on them, but the opinions I got from my own re-read. I don't have a good thread on what the "case" is, who's been on wagon/who hasn't been, but I just know that these are players who I found scummy things on when I re-read. And for D1 here I think that's enough honestly. I don't have enough of a read on anyone to avoid wagons based on who's on/off. I'm sure I'll be able to get a lot more focus later on.

I disagree with you on XP, also.

I still think you're scummy, but 2.7's reaction has definitely been scummy than your reaction, so Vote: 2.7.

[Twistedarcher]

#167 ss votes Seprix for being jokey and easy to fabricate posts. I too find Seprix scummy up to this point, but I don't agree with the first point and only partially the second. NOTE -- ask silverspawn for more clarification on what posts are "easy to fabricate"

well if you read the stuff Seprix has posted up to that point, it's little content and a lot of jokes and one liners. A few notes about the flavor. Maybe one or two about the setup. One post saying 'UoS' makes sense (which is a nice thing for scum to do; he is making sense after all, and you pointing it out is non-hedgy while also being content, but super easy to do). I don't think content is necessarily always hard to fabricate, but no-content is usually easy. It can be a town tell if someone has a hard time being dégagé (I just looked this word up) as town, but not in Seprix case

PPE 10

Cool, thanks. I found that post scummy as well.