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Author Topic: Definition of Combo discussion  (Read 22755 times)

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ehunt

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2015, 07:07:16 pm »
+3

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Donald X.

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2015, 07:35:12 pm »
+5

Fortunately we're posting in a thread dedicated to discussing, among other things, where the cutoff should be! And even if there were no cut and dry point at which a combo is different from a synergy, that doesn't mean that the distinction doesn't exist. The colors blue and green exist even though there's no specified wavelength at which blue transitions into green.
In Magic, since people are talking about that, "synergy" does not require a combo at all. For example fast creatures and direct damage have synergy but aren't a combo.

In Magic, "combo" means "a strategy based on combos," while "a combo" is 2+ cards where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Northern Paladin plus Sleight of Mind, Royal Assassin plus Icy Manipulator, Orcish Artillery plus CoP: Red (I am old), and so on are combos, they are in fact classic combos from the early days of Magic. They aren't things that ever won tournaments. They are still combos, they are endlessly referred to as combos by Magic players. These Magic players would also say "control beats combo," meaning, the one kind of strategy trumps the other (it's because you counter their key combo piece and then they have nothing).

Me personally, I do not confine combo to good combos, or strong combos, or fun combos. They are all combos. And when I use "combo" the way I use it, I bet people won't have a hard time understanding me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2015, 07:39:44 pm »
0

Fortunately we're posting in a thread dedicated to discussing, among other things, where the cutoff should be! And even if there were no cut and dry point at which a combo is different from a synergy, that doesn't mean that the distinction doesn't exist. The colors blue and green exist even though there's no specified wavelength at which blue transitions into green.
In Magic, since people are talking about that, "synergy" does not require a combo at all. For example fast creatures and direct damage have synergy but aren't a combo.

In Magic, "combo" means "a strategy based on combos," while "a combo" is 2+ cards where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Northern Paladin plus Sleight of Mind, Royal Assassin plus Icy Manipulator, Orcish Artillery plus CoP: Red (I am old), and so on are combos, they are in fact classic combos from the early days of Magic. They aren't things that ever won tournaments. They are still combos, they are endlessly referred to as combos by Magic players. These Magic players would also say "control beats combo," meaning, the one kind of strategy trumps the other (it's because you counter their key combo piece and then they have nothing).

Me personally, I do not confine combo to good combos, or strong combos, or fun combos. They are all combos. And when I use "combo" the way I use it, I bet people won't have a hard time understanding me.

So in Magic, "synergy" and "combo" are different.  For you personally, when talking about Dominion, any synergy is a combo?

I think the last line is key here.  However people use "combo", I can usually tell what they mean through context.
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Donald X.

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2015, 08:52:48 pm »
+5

So in Magic, "synergy" and "combo" are different.  For you personally, when talking about Dominion, any synergy is a combo?
No. Synergistic cards are cards I want in the same deck, whether or not they are combos. They go together but do not necessarily have interacting rules. They help pursue the same strategy, that is what makes them synergistic.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2015, 09:16:50 pm »
0

Hmmm.  Makes me wonder if one-color decks are possible.

They wouldn't be as good as other games using color identifiers. It's be fun to do. Two colors is easy; yellow & green.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2015, 09:27:09 pm »
+1

Hmmm.  Makes me wonder if one-color decks are possible.

They wouldn't be as good as other games using color identifiers. It's be fun to do. Two colors is easy; yellow & green.

I want to make a completely tan deck.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2015, 09:38:17 pm »
+5

EDIT 2: Creating an arbitrary distinction between "combo" and "combo deck" is even sillier than narrowing the definition of "combo." Do you mean to tell me that most combos cannot form a combo deck? That's even more confusing!

Dude, think in practical terms. People have a natural intuition of what a combo is, and trying to globally redefine the word is a nearly impossible task with no real benefit for success. If you want to use the term "combo" only to refer to a subset of card combos, you go right ahead. But telling everybody else they're using the word wrong is a losing battle. That's why the burden to come up with a new term for "combo that is an entire strategy" is on the people who desire such a term.
This particular line stuck out to me. You guys are mostly talking about how combos in Dominion relate to combos in MtG. Then someone brought up food deal combos, which doesn't evoke the same thoughts as MtG combos. The term "combo" is very prevalent in fighting games, and combos are more associated to fighting games than the way it's used in MtG and Dominion.

In fighting games, combos are basically sequences of moves that, when executed under certain conditions, cause something special to occur that would not occur if the moves were executed in isolation. For example, a move is automatically added to the move chain, or the last hit is always critical, or every move in the chain is guaranteed to connect if the first one does.

Hearthstone's "combo" mechanic lines up with this concept of the combo. Combo effects on cards are only activated if the card is played after another one, and never execute if the card with the combo effect is the only card played in a turn.

Now with Dominion, I think of combos as card interactions that result in strong assertions that cannot be made if the cards are played individually. These "strong" assertions are things that are more than just a card being better at what it's expected to do.

Non-Combo Example:
"Play Plaza, discarding a treasure for a coin token, then play Library to draw up to 7."
So here, the Library mitigates the drawback of having to discard a card with Plaza. But after playing both cards, I have a coin token and have 7 cards in hand. This is something I'd expect to have as a result from the union of the effects of Library and Plaza. Mitigating weaknesses in this way is a synergy.

Combo Example:
"Play Rebuild, naming Tunnel, to reveal the entire deck without finding a VP card not named Tunnel. Every revealed Tunnel is discarded to gain a Gold."
If Tunnel is the only VP card in my deck, then I can assert that playing Rebuild, naming Tunnel, makes me gain a Gold for every Tunnel in my deck. This is not just more than the sum of Rebuild and Tunnel, this is creating an event that should not result from using these cards under most circumstances. In fact, just having a single Estate in my deck makes the "gain 1 Gold per Tunnel" effect no longer hold.

Another Combo Example:
"Play King's Court to play Scavenger 3 times. Discard the deck on the first play of Scavenger and put King's Court, Scavenger, and Silver on top of the deck. On the next turn, buy Province and repeat the King's Court->Scavenger play."
By playing KC->Scavenger to topdeck KC, Scavenger, and Silver, I can assert that I'll be able to buy a Province every turn, so long as I have extra copies of those cards in my deck after cleanup and draw. As strong as it would be to topdeck 2 KCs and 1 Hunting Party, that doesn't guarantee that I'll be able to buy a Province next turn.

With NV/Bridge, if you reach the critical mass of Bridges on your NV mat, then you just empty the Provinces, most likely winning the game. Same with Hermit/MS if you reach the precise balance of Madmen/Hermit/MS. That stuff doesn't happen if you replace NV/Bridge with Highway/Worker's Village and Hermit/MS with Hermit/Market/Ferry (making Market cost 3 to gain with Hermit). In short, these combos create events, significant events, outside of what is reasonably expected by simply resolving all the effects on these cards in some random order.

Tactician + Black Market is kind of in the middle. I lean towards considering it to be just a really, REALLY good synergy. The result you get from playing both is what you'd expect from the cards being played individually and then those results are mashed together. However it's still reasonable consider "play all treasures for value despite playing Tactician" to be a significant event outside of what Tactician and BM normally provide, thus making it a combo. Tactician/Vault however is definitely a combo if you can guarantee to draw Vault and Tactician every turn, as this leads to a Province every turn.

Following this idea of combos, Golden decks like those possible with Bishop also fit into the definition of a combo, analogous to endless chains in a fighting game (presumably broken if an endless combo chain is possible).

If every synergy was considered a combo, then engines would just be a long combo chain. Some players are bound to actually see engines this way, calling engines "combo decks". I think people I've played with have described them as such. For us on this forum, we see combos as interactions that lead to the same results you might expect from an engine with what seems to be way less.

So ultimately, I do think the term "combo" should be restricted to an interaction producing a result at a certain power level. Not only that, that result should be something that feels almost like you entered a cheat code to get something that you wouldn't expect at all from standard use of the cards that are part of the combo. Notice that a lot of combos are dependent on rather restrictive conditions being met, like having the right amount of Madmen compared to Hermits for Hermit/MS and having Tunnel be the only VP card in your deck for Rebuild/Tunnel. From there, you can classify between viable power combos (like NV/Bridge) and support combos (like Rebuild/Tunnel).
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werothegreat

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2015, 10:04:54 pm »
+1

I think there are two questions you have to ask if you're wondering whether it's a "combo" or not:

1) Does the combo no longer work if I try to substitute one of the pieces?
2) Can I pull this off with only these two cards, and no other additions?

If you answer "yes" to both of these, then it's a "combo" in the very strictest, WanderingWinder-article sense.  The first question definitely has more leeway that's up to intuition, though: can I still pull off Chancellor/Stash if I use a Messenger instead of Chancellor?  Well, sure, because they're essentially doing the same thing.  Does that mean Chancellor/Stash isn't a combo?  I don't think so; that question is really more to weed out broad card categories that work well together: Village/Smithy is not a combo, not by any definition.  However, I'm certainly for calling "synergistic" relations between cards "combos" if they're interesting enough and notable: you're certainly not going to win a game just with Worker's Villages and Peddlers, but the interaction is useful enough that if you go for it and your opponent doesn't, you're going to pull out ahead.

That said, there is certainly a difference between "combo" sensu stricto and what some of us might call "synergy".  Fool's Gold likes Copper trashers - that doesn't mean I'm going to call Doctor/Fool's Gold a combo.  However, Mint/Fool's Gold is a combo, because of additional qualities to Mint beyond simply being able to trash Coppers.  Mint gets rid of a lot of Coppers at once early on, and gives you free additional Fool's Golds.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that whether it's a "super combo" or just "synergy", it really should only be worth noting if something about the combination of these two cards clicks in some way.  Two cards bouncing off of one another in a way that is greater than the sum of their parts, and usually is non-obvious.  I honestly was skeptical of Hermit/Market Square until I tried it; who the hell would have thought of that just looking at the cards?  So yeah.  I dunno.  Stuff.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 10:06:07 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2015, 10:12:03 pm »
0

So what I learned:

Combo Strategy and Combo Synergy are both called "combo" and causes arguments about if you mean strategy or synergy.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2015, 10:15:21 pm »
+1

So what I learned:

Combo Strategy and Combo Synergy are both called "combo" and causes arguments about if you mean strategy or synergy.

That's why I put this on the wiki page:

Quote
A combo can refer to two things:

1) Two or more cards with a particular synergy
2) A cohesive strategy that relies only on two (sometimes three) cards

The first can act as a supplement or centerpiece to a larger strategy, and is typically the broader category. But when talking about a combo deck, it is the second that is being referred to.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2015, 10:47:30 pm »
0

As the antagonist in this drama, I am willing to accept that correcting someone's definition or otherwise trying to impose a particular definition is probably the wrong way to go about it.
However, I think it is always useful to make sure that everyone is on the same page regarding what it is they are actually discussing.

The reason I felt the need to define the word combo in the Storyteller+Bank thread is because I could already see the discussion degrading into an argument where each person was using a different definition of the word.
Basically an argument might look like this:

Person A: It is a combo!
Person B: It isn't a combo!

When actually the argument is really going down like this:

Person A: It is a synergy!
Person B: It isn't a strategy!

So, without clarifying what each person means by "combo" they could end up arguing endlessly, despite the fact that they fundamentally agree with each other. They might easily both be able to agree that those two cards have an excellent synergy, but not really enough to define an entire strategy.

But, yes, it's probably not good form to be so prescriptive in pronouncing a definition.
I guess the better way of doing it is to ask the person to expand on their meaning, rather than telling them they're using a term incorrectly (according to your own meaning).
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2015, 10:49:08 pm »
+1

I'm totally confused by this thread.  LF starts off by saying that any 2+ cards with positive synergy should be called a "combo", but now he's giving +1 to posts from Donald which explicitly say synergies and combos are different things.

For clarity, here's how I think of it:

Synergy: Cards that work well together, cards that have a positive interaction. This has a very low threshold, e.g. Scout+Great Hall, Oasis+Rebuild.

Combo: Synergistic cards that are strategically relevant, that are worth watching for.  Cards that are more than the sum of their parts in a way that matters outside of mere edge cases.  They may support a variety of strategies or they might form the center of a strategy, e.g. Quarry+Stonemason, University+Library.  The two examples I gave for "synergy" don't fit in here.

Combo Deck: A combo that is pretty much the entirety of the strategy by itself.  Basically what WW says in his article, e.g. NV+Bridge, PS+Herbalist.

A synergy is not necessarily a combo.  A combo does not necessarily form a combo deck.  All combo decks use combos.  All card combos have cards that are synergistic.

All three levels have examples that may be weak or strong, but generally I think of "combo" as something more significant than "synergy", but the line is somewhat fuzzy.  A combo deck is something else, not necessarily stronger than a combo.  PS+Herbalist isn't that amazing, for example.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2015, 11:04:36 pm »
0

I'm totally confused by this thread.  LF starts off by saying that any 2+ cards with positive synergy should be called a "combo", but now he's giving +1 to posts from Donald which explicitly say synergies and combos are different things.

For clarity, here's how I think of it:

Synergy: Cards that work well together, cards that have a positive interaction. This has a very low threshold, e.g. Scout+Great Hall, Oasis+Rebuild.

Combo: Synergistic cards that are strategically relevant, that are worth watching for.  Cards that are more than the sum of their parts in a way that matters outside of mere edge cases.  They may support a variety of strategies or they might form the center of a strategy, e.g. Quarry+Stonemason, University+Library.  The two examples I gave for "synergy" don't fit in here.

Combo Deck: A combo that is pretty much the entirety of the strategy by itself.  Basically what WW says in his article, e.g. NV+Bridge, PS+Herbalist.

A synergy is not necessarily a combo.  A combo does not necessarily form a combo deck.  All combo decks use combos.  All card combos have cards that are synergistic.

All three levels have examples that may be weak or strong, but generally I think of "combo" as something more significant than "synergy", but the line is somewhat fuzzy.  A combo deck is something else, not necessarily stronger than a combo.  PS+Herbalist isn't that amazing, for example.
These examples do make me think that the line between synergies and combos is quite fuzzy. Certainly, what constitutes a "strategically relevant" interaction is up for debate. There is also the possibility that using multiple positive synergies available in the kingdom is strong enough to become a strategy. Saying those synergies are not strategically relevant is too dismissive in that case.

I don't even know what to call PS/Herbalist. It's just like, a synergy that is so strong that you can sort of build a decent deck out of it. Every part of the effect of those cards goes to complement the other. I do think University/Watchtower is more of a combo than University/Library just because of the topdecking effect. Really, it's just that draw-to-X has synergy with all disappearing actions like Festival and Fishing Village.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2015, 11:41:30 pm »
0

I'm totally confused by this thread.  LF starts off by saying that any 2+ cards with positive synergy should be called a "combo", but now he's giving +1 to posts from Donald which explicitly say synergies and combos are different things.

For clarity, here's how I think of it:

Synergy: Cards that work well together, cards that have a positive interaction. This has a very low threshold, e.g. Scout+Great Hall, Oasis+Rebuild.

Combo: Synergistic cards that are strategically relevant, that are worth watching for.  Cards that are more than the sum of their parts in a way that matters outside of mere edge cases.  They may support a variety of strategies or they might form the center of a strategy, e.g. Quarry+Stonemason, University+Library.  The two examples I gave for "synergy" don't fit in here.

Combo Deck: A combo that is pretty much the entirety of the strategy by itself.  Basically what WW says in his article, e.g. NV+Bridge, PS+Herbalist.

A synergy is not necessarily a combo.  A combo does not necessarily form a combo deck.  All combo decks use combos.  All card combos have cards that are synergistic.

All three levels have examples that may be weak or strong, but generally I think of "combo" as something more significant than "synergy", but the line is somewhat fuzzy.  A combo deck is something else, not necessarily stronger than a combo.  PS+Herbalist isn't that amazing, for example.
These examples do make me think that the line between synergies and combos is quite fuzzy. Certainly, what constitutes a "strategically relevant" interaction is up for debate. There is also the possibility that using multiple positive synergies available in the kingdom is strong enough to become a strategy. Saying those synergies are not strategically relevant is too dismissive in that case.

I don't even know what to call PS/Herbalist. It's just like, a synergy that is so strong that you can sort of build a decent deck out of it. Every part of the effect of those cards goes to complement the other. I do think University/Watchtower is more of a combo than University/Library just because of the topdecking effect. Really, it's just that draw-to-X has synergy with all disappearing actions like Festival and Fishing Village.

Well for the two examples I gave, Scout+Great Hall have positive synergy but they are so weak that I would not call it a combo.  Rebuild+Oasis has positive synergy (Oasis improves cycling, gives some coin so it's a bit easier to hit $5) but not so much that I would call it more than the sum of its parts; it's just a strong card and a decent card doing their usual things.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2015, 03:03:46 am »
0

So now "combo" just means "a strategy that doesn't fit into the other four deck types recognized by f:ds"?

That's the impression I keep getting. If that's the case, why not just call it a "Miscellaneous" deck? Ooh, or how about a "Bag o' Tricks" deck? That sounds way more fun than "Combo" and probably makes more sense.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2015, 03:18:16 am »
+3

Why is it that when some people say "combo" in reference to two cards, other people think "deck" ?
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2015, 03:56:31 am »
+1

Hmmm.  Makes me wonder if one-color decks are possible.
Certainly. All-white decks where at least one of the cards in the deck is Goons, for starters.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2015, 05:15:31 am »
0

So now "combo" just means "a strategy that doesn't fit into the other four deck types recognized by f:ds"?

That's the impression I keep getting. If that's the case, why not just call it a "Miscellaneous" deck? Ooh, or how about a "Bag o' Tricks" deck? That sounds way more fun than "Combo" and probably makes more sense.

It's not the case. There are strategies that don't fit into the other four deck types without being combos: for example, the mass Baker thing. "Hoarding a ton of coin tokens in the mid game and spending them in the late game to overcome the negative feedback loop of greening" is a type of strategy that's based on regular Dominion strategy principles, therefore it's not combo. It could be argued that f.ds should recognize it as one of the fundamental deck types, but OTOH it's very rarely the best strategy on the board (which could be said about big money as well, but the fact that big money is always available means that weak kingdoms where it's the best strategy are much more common), and on a third hand it can actually be combined with other types of strategies pretty well which is not true for any of the deck types that f.ds does recognize.

It's mostly true in practice, though, since most of the competitive other strategies are combo strategies. But it's not the definition, it's just a result of the facts that 1) combo decks are based on card interaction rather than the regular strategy principles, 2) f.ds are pretty good at Dominion strategy so we recognize the relevant strategy types and 3) when you ignore the regular strategy principles and you don't even have strong card interaction, your strategy probably sucks.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2015, 09:24:00 am »
0

Well for the two examples I gave, Scout+Great Hall have positive synergy but they are so weak that I would not call it a combo.  Rebuild+Oasis has positive synergy (Oasis improves cycling, gives some coin so it's a bit easier to hit $5) but not so much that I would call it more than the sum of its parts; it's just a strong card and a decent card doing their usual things.

I think that every synergy in Dominion has its component cards producing more than the sum of its parts. Even with Rebuild + Oasis, Oasis is producing slightly more $ on average compared to a non-Rebuild deck because the Rebuild deck will have a higher Victory card density and therefore it's less likely to discard a Copper to Oasis.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2015, 10:14:13 am »
+5

LF starts off by saying that any 2+ cards with positive synergy should be called a "combo", but now he's giving +1 to posts from Donald which explicitly say synergies and combos are different things.

My +1s do not mean that I fully endorse the arguments in a post; only that the post makes a good point. I think LF is fairly generous with his +1s, too.
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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2015, 11:35:52 am »
0

Well for the two examples I gave, Scout+Great Hall have positive synergy but they are so weak that I would not call it a combo.  Rebuild+Oasis has positive synergy (Oasis improves cycling, gives some coin so it's a bit easier to hit $5) but not so much that I would call it more than the sum of its parts; it's just a strong card and a decent card doing their usual things.

I think that every synergy in Dominion has its component cards producing more than the sum of its parts. Even with Rebuild + Oasis, Oasis is producing slightly more $ on average compared to a non-Rebuild deck because the Rebuild deck will have a higher Victory card density and therefore it's less likely to discard a Copper to Oasis.
It's more like synergies help bring out the full potential of cards. For example, the discard part of Oasis is normally a drawback, but in Rebuild decks where Oasis always ends up diacarding VP cards the drawback is negated. In fact, the discard effect can be a benefit in Rebuild games because it let's Rebuild hit the discarded VP card. So, the 2 cards make each other better. So it's more than the sum of their parts on average, but they are still behaving in essentially the same way.

Also, can someone explain to me the Inn/Graverobber/Procession/Feast combo and what it accomplishes? Like, does it gain a Province every turn or something? Are extra generic components required as well?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2015, 12:18:20 pm »
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I'm totally confused by this thread.  LF starts off by saying that any 2+ cards with positive synergy should be called a "combo", but now he's giving +1 to posts from Donald which explicitly say synergies and combos are different things.

I think any two cards that have synergy can be called a combo. You don't have to use that word. Saying they have synergy is fine, too.

Prior to Donald's post, I hadn't considered the idea that two cards could have synergy but not have interacting rules. I'd like a few examples of that.
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swedenman

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2015, 12:21:29 pm »
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Rebuild+Oasis has positive synergy...but not so much that I would call it more than the sum of its parts

But that's what "synergy" is  ;D
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 12:23:27 pm by swedenman »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2015, 12:32:09 pm »
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Rebuild+Oasis has positive synergy...but not so much that I would call it more than the sum of its parts

But that's what "synergy" is  ;D

He's right. That is the literally the definition of synergy.

synergy
[sin-er-jee]
noun, plural synergies.
1. the interaction of elements that when combined produce a total effect that is greater than the sum of the individual elements, contributions, etc.; synergism.
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Donald X.

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Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2015, 02:39:42 pm »
+2

Prior to Donald's post, I hadn't considered the idea that two cards could have synergy but not have interacting rules. I'd like a few examples of that.
We can take a viewpoint of synergistic cards that makes them always a combo; the distinction in the end is that in card-game contexts people don't use the word "combo" to refer to things that don't interact via their rules.

Again let's consider fast creatures plus direct damage in Magic. In Magic I am trying to kill you. 10 damage plus 10 damage is I win; it's more than the sum of its parts. So fast creatures and direct damage interact with the same thing and "combine;" however people don't refer to that as a combo, because they don't have interacting rules. They are just things you want in the same deck. Similarly when two cards are similar, they tend to be synergistic; Stone Rain and Strip Mine both destroy a land, so you want them in the same deck when your goal is to destroy all of someone's lands. They don't have interacting rules but destroying two lands can hurt more than twice as much as destroying one land (though it also may not; sometimes you just want to destroy a few lands while beating them up with cheap guys).

In Dominion, consider the case of going for Gardens. Market and Workshop both help you do that. Market and Workshop don't have interacting rules though. They are combos with Gardens and synergistic with each other.
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