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Author Topic: Male and female cards (again)  (Read 44710 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2017, 03:19:44 pm »
0

Ah, fair.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2017, 04:24:12 pm »
+1

It seems I have been forgetting another "not thematically forced" card. Mystic and this are the kind of reply I was hoping for. Oh, Expand just came to my mind, too. Maybe it's really more than I thought.

I guess you missed my post where I mentioned Peddler and Goons.

ConMan

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #127 on: November 16, 2017, 05:49:45 pm »
+4

For the cards I'm referring to, it would be statistically probable that if you drew a random representant, you'd draw a male one, because they made up the majority. There were women who fought, but of all fighters, the percentage of women was still below the percentage of man, no? Still a woman was chosen for the card. That's what I mean. It's a less probable representant. I should probably have written "less probable" and not "improbable", but at some point you have to hope people try to see what you talk about, and not just what they can disagree with.
The problem is that when everyone says "There are more X than Y so I will choose X to represent my thing", then that's how you get overwhelming bias towards everything being X. If you've got a list of 10 professions that each has a 60-40 male-female representation and you apply your reasoning about picking whatever's "more probably", then your final list has 10 men on it when you should expect to have about 4 women. As someone who is in the majority group for most of the obvious categories, I appreciate that Donald went so far as to consider the gender split across an entire box of cards and picked not-always-typical options to make sure that the representation is fairer.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #128 on: November 16, 2017, 06:09:26 pm »
+1

What percentage of Pookas are female?

I mean, historically. Not today, obviously.
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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2017, 06:54:25 pm »
0

What percentage of Pookas are female?

I mean, historically. Not today, obviously.

I'd say the statement "Historically, there was no single male Pooka and no single female Pooka" is true.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #130 on: November 28, 2017, 11:16:23 pm »
+3

Here is the list updated for Nocturne (and Dismantle).

Summary of method used:
  • Based on the image on the card related to the name of the card. If the name is a person, is that person man or woman? If the name is an activity or place, I look at the person(s) doing or representing the activity or place.
  • No people, or blurry background people -> not included
  • Both men and women -> counted as 0.5 man, 0.5 woman.
  • Unknown gender -> not counted
  • Based on thematic content, these groups of card are counted as just 1 each: Knight pile, Hermit/Madman, Urchin/Mercenary, Page line, Peasant line, each split pile, Ghost/Haunted Mirror, Vampire/Bat.
BASE (2nd edition)
Male: Bureaucrat, Laboratoty, Militia, Mine, Moneylender, Smithy, Vassal
Female: Artisan, Bandit, Harbinger, Merchant, Poacher, Sentry, Witch
Both: Festival, Market(?)
Unknown: Library

INTRIGUE (2nd edition)
Male: Baron, Conspirator, Duke, Ironworks, Minion, Nobels, Pawn, Replace, Steward, Swindler, Torturer
Female: Courtyard, Diplomat, Harem, Lurker, Patrol
Both: Courtier, Shanty Town (both are men, or one of each), Wishing Well (both are female, or one of each)
Unknown: -

SEASIDE
Male: Ambassador, Bazaar, Cutpurse, Embargo, Fishing Village, Haven, Lookout, Merchant Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Smugglers, Tactician, Wharf
Female: Explorer, Sea Hag
Both: Native Village
Unknown: -

ALCHEMY
Male: Alchemist, Apothecary, Golem, Herbalist, Transmute
Female: Scrying Pool, Possession
Unknown: Apprentice, Familiar

PROSPERITY
Male: Bank, Bishop, Counting House, Goons, Loan, Mint, Mountebank, Venture
Female: Expand, Forge, Peddler
Both: Grand Market, King's Court, Rabble
Unknown: -

CORNUCOPIA
Male: Horse Traders, Hunting Party, Tournament
Female: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Harvest, Princess, Young Witch
Both: Followers, Menagerie
Unknown: Jester

HINTERLANDS
Male: Cartographer, Develop, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Mandarin, Margrave, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Stables
Female: Duchess, Oracle, Trader
Both: Embassy
Unknown: -

DARK AGES
Male: Armory, Bandit Camp, Beggar, Count, Graverobber, Hermit/Madman, Hunting Grounds, Ironmonger, Junk Dealer, Marauder, Necropolis, Pillage, Procession, Rogue, Sage, Scavenger, Squire, Urchin/Mercenary, Vagrant, Wandering Minstrel
Female: Market Square, Mystic
Both: Band of Misfits, Survivors, Knights
Unknown: Death Cart, Cultist, Forager

GUILDS
Male: Advisor, Butcher, Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Herald, Journeyman, Merchant Guild, Stonemason, Taxman
Female: Baker, Soothsayer
Both: Plaza
Unknown: -

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Ratcatcher, Raze, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Royal Carriage, Scouting Party
Unknown: Raid

EMPIRES
Male: Arena(?), Battlefield, Catapult/Rocks, Chariot Race, Conquest, Delve, Dominate, Gladiator/Fortune, Legionary, Overlord, Patrician/Emporium, Royal Blacksmith, Sacrifice, Tax, Triumph, Triumphal Arch
Female: Baths, Donate, Enchantress, Engineer, Farmers' Market, Groundskeeper, Wedding, Windfall
Both: Advance, Annex, Banquet, Basilica, Salt the Earth, Settlers/Bustling Village
Unknown: Encampment/Plunder, Bandit Fort, Wild Hunt

NOCTURNE
Male: Cobbler, Delusion, Devil's Workshop, Fear, Fool, Greed, Haunting, Leprechaun, Locusts, Necromancer, Night Watchman, Raider, Tracker, Tragic Hero, Werewolf, Zombie Mason, Zombie Spy
Female: Bard, Conclave, Druid, Exorcist, Ghost/Haunted Mirror, Guardian, Misery, Pixie, Pooka, Shepherd, Tormentor, Vampire/Bat, Zombie Apprentice
Both: Blessed Village
Unknown: Changeling, Imp, Skulk

PROMOS
Male: Black Market, Dismantle, Envoy, Governor, Prince
Female: Summon
Both: -
Unknown: Sauna

Totals (with "Both" included):
MALE: 157.5 = 66.7%
FEMALE: 78.5 = 33.3%

UNKNOWN: 15

Breakdown for each set, percentage of female cards:
BASE (2E): 50.0%
INTRIGUE (2E): 34.2%
SEASIDE: 14.7%
ALCHEMY: 28.6%
PROSPERITY: 32.1%
CORNUCOPIA: 63.6%
HINTERLANDS: 23.3%
DARK AGES: 14.0%
GUILDS: 20.8%
ADVENTURES: 39.4%
EMPIRES: 36.7%
NOCTURNE: 43.5%
PROMOS: 16.7%

Update 2019-04-06: Changed Devil's Workshop from female to male.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 12:35:46 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #131 on: April 02, 2019, 03:29:50 pm »
+4

Here is the list updated for Renaissance.

BASE (2nd edition)
Male: Bureaucrat, Laboratoty, Militia, Mine, Moneylender, Smithy, Vassal
Female: Artisan, Bandit, Harbinger, Merchant, Poacher, Sentry, Witch
Both: Festival, Market(?)
Unknown: Library

INTRIGUE (2nd edition)
Male: Baron, Conspirator, Duke, Ironworks, Minion, Nobels, Pawn, Replace, Steward, Swindler, Torturer
Female: Courtyard, Diplomat, Harem, Lurker, Patrol
Both: Courtier, Shanty Town (both are men, or one of each), Wishing Well (both are female, or one of each)
Unknown: -

SEASIDE
Male: Ambassador, Bazaar, Cutpurse, Embargo, Fishing Village, Haven, Lookout, Merchant Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Smugglers, Tactician, Wharf
Female: Explorer, Sea Hag
Both: Native Village
Unknown: -

ALCHEMY
Male: Alchemist, Apothecary, Golem, Herbalist, Transmute
Female: Scrying Pool, Possession
Unknown: Apprentice, Familiar

PROSPERITY
Male: Bank, Bishop, Counting House, Goons, Loan, Mint, Mountebank, Venture
Female: Expand, Forge, Peddler
Both: Grand Market, King's Court, Rabble
Unknown: -

CORNUCOPIA
Male: Horse Traders, Hunting Party, Tournament
Female: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Harvest, Princess, Young Witch
Both: Followers, Menagerie
Unknown: Jester

HINTERLANDS
Male: Cartographer, Develop, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Mandarin, Margrave, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Stables
Female: Duchess, Oracle, Trader
Both: Embassy
Unknown: -

DARK AGES
Male: Armory, Bandit Camp, Beggar, Count, Graverobber, Hermit/Madman, Hunting Grounds, Ironmonger, Junk Dealer, Marauder, Necropolis, Pillage, Procession, Rogue, Sage, Scavenger, Squire, Urchin/Mercenary, Vagrant, Wandering Minstrel
Female: Market Square, Mystic
Both: Band of Misfits, Survivors, Knights
Unknown: Death Cart, Cultist, Forager

GUILDS
Male: Advisor, Butcher, Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Herald, Journeyman, Merchant Guild, Stonemason, Taxman
Female: Baker, Soothsayer
Both: Plaza
Unknown: -

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Ratcatcher, Raze, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Royal Carriage, Scouting Party
Unknown: Raid

EMPIRES
Male: Arena(?), Battlefield, Catapult/Rocks, Chariot Race, Conquest, Delve, Dominate, Gladiator/Fortune, Legionary, Overlord, Patrician/Emporium, Royal Blacksmith, Sacrifice, Tax, Triumph, Triumphal Arch
Female: Baths, Donate, Enchantress, Engineer, Farmers' Market, Groundskeeper, Wedding, Windfall
Both: Advance, Annex, Banquet, Basilica, Salt the Earth, Settlers/Bustling Village
Unknown: Encampment/Plunder, Bandit Fort, Wild Hunt

NOCTURNE
Male: Cobbler, Delusion, Devil's Workshop, Fear, Fool, Greed, Haunting, Leprechaun, Locusts, Necromancer, Night Watchman, Raider, Tracker, Tragic Hero, Werewolf, Zombie Mason, Zombie Spy
Female: Bard, Conclave, Druid, Exorcist, Ghost/Haunted Mirror, Guardian, Misery, Pixie, Pooka, Shepherd, Tormentor(?), Vampire/Bat, Zombie Apprentice
Both: Blessed Village
Unknown: Changeling, Imp, Skulk

RENAISSANCE
Male: Barracks(?), Flag Bearer, Inventor, Patron, Priest, Recruiter, Road Network, Seer, Sinister Plot, Villain
Female: Border Guard/Lantern, Experiment, Old Witch, Research, Scholar, Sculptor, Silk Merchant, Swashbuckler, Treasurer/Key
Both: Acting Troupe, Capitalism, Fair, Improve, Lackeys, Piazza
Unknown: City Gate(?), Hideout

PROMOS
Male: Black Market, Dismantle, Envoy, Governor, Prince
Female: Summon
Both: -
Unknown: Sauna

Totals (with "Both" included):
MALE: 170.5 = 65.3%
FEMALE: 90.5 = 34.7%

UNKNOWN: 17

Breakdown for each set, percentage of female cards:
BASE (2E): 50.0%
INTRIGUE (2E): 34.2%
SEASIDE: 14.7%
ALCHEMY: 28.6%
PROSPERITY: 32.1%
CORNUCOPIA: 63.6%
HINTERLANDS: 23.3%
DARK AGES: 14.0%
GUILDS: 20.8%
ADVENTURES: 39.4%
EMPIRES: 36.7%
NOCTURNE: 43.5%
RENAISSANCE: 48.0%
PROMOS: 16.7%

Update 2019-04-06: Changed Devil's Workshop (Nocturne) from female to male.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 12:38:53 pm by Jeebus »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #132 on: April 02, 2019, 07:52:40 pm »
0

Are you sure the Donate person is a female?
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #133 on: April 02, 2019, 11:13:17 pm »
0

Are you sure the Donate person is a female?

No; there are many of these I'm not 100% sure of. But I think it's reasonable to go with how an artist would choose to portray a man or a woman - i.e. assuming that there's no reason why an artist (in this context) would choose to depict a man with feminine features or a woman with masculine ones.

LastFootnote

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2019, 12:06:34 pm »
0

By what evidence do you claim the person in the foreground of Barracks is male? And are all the people in the background also male?
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2019, 12:50:23 pm »
0

By what evidence do you claim the person in the foreground of Barracks is male? And are all the people in the background also male?

The blurry people in the background don't matter; see the description of my criteria above.

But good question about the foreground person. There's at least one other card like that - Arena. I was mainly going by what most artists would intend to be portraying with a person in armor from medieval times. (Barracks should have a question mark like Arena.)

I was also assuming that women didn't usually wear this kind of armor, which is supported by this interesting article: "If we are talking about actual medieval history, women wearing armor was rare and women in plated suits of armor even rarer." But since Dominion art puts women in all kinds of roles that were rare in actual history, maybe this is not a good reason.

I might be that Arena and Barracks should be "unknowns". My first reason still stands though, and is connected to what I wrote above about feminine/masculine features and artist's intent.

Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2019, 03:49:54 pm »
+1

Are you sure the Donate person is a female?

No; there are many of these I'm not 100% sure of. But I think it's reasonable to go with how an artist would choose to portray a man or a woman - i.e. assuming that there's no reason why an artist (in this context) would choose to depict a man with feminine features or a woman with masculine ones.

I could be misremembering, but I believe Donald has indicated elsewhere that the directions to the artist suggested a woman for Donate.
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #137 on: April 04, 2019, 01:10:07 am »
+2

I could be misremembering, but I believe Donald has indicated elsewhere that the directions to the artist suggested a woman for Donate.
Dictated, yes.
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CaptainTheo

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #138 on: April 04, 2019, 03:48:34 am »
0

Devil's Workshop, Tormentor and Bard are female? I thought they were all male - Bard being amusingly androgynous in being dressed like a male but looks more feminine when zoomed in. (And Bards are typically male, though so are lots of the cards depicted as female.) Looking more carefully at these three cards they do look more 'ambiguous' than 'male'.

I agree with Donate as female though.
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Asper

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #139 on: April 04, 2019, 06:05:30 am »
+1

I think all Bard, Donate, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are ambiguous. I mean, they could be women, but I wouldn't say they have to.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #140 on: April 04, 2019, 10:53:42 am »
0

I think all Bard, Donate, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are ambiguous. I mean, they could be women, but I wouldn't say they have to.

Zooming in on Bard and looking at the face and hands, I have no doubt that it's a woman. The others are less clear. I think my decision for Tormentor was based on what seems like breasts.

Maybe Donald can shed some light on Tormentor and Devil's Workshop? Others that maybe were based on instructions could be Plan, Wild Hunt, Skulk, Flag Bearer, Hideout and Barracks.

LastFootnote

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #141 on: April 04, 2019, 01:05:09 pm »
+2

I think all Bard, Donate, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are ambiguous. I mean, they could be women, but I wouldn't say they have to.

Zooming in on Bard and looking at the face and hands, I have no doubt that it's a woman. The others are less clear. I think my decision for Tormentor was based on what seems like breasts.

Maybe Donald can shed some light on Tormentor and Devil's Workshop? Others that maybe were based on instructions could be Plan, Wild Hunt, Skulk, Flag Bearer, Hideout and Barracks.

Tormentor is 100% a woman, according to my memory of the artists' notes. Bard is too. Donate is obviously a woman.

I don't know about Devil's Workshop, but I think that's a man. I could be wrong there.
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ElisabetK

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #142 on: April 04, 2019, 01:32:37 pm »
+2

I'm not sure why Market is listed as "both". If that figure with the money is supposed to be female it's clearly not doing the job, lol. That card is truly a wasted opportunity.

Yes, the gender disparity came up years ago in real life for people I was playing with when the Harem card came out. The few female cards were pretty negative or dependent portrayals (e.g. Witch).

I for one really appreciate seeing new cards like Sentry and Bandit making the gender issue less of a distraction. As someone upthread pointed out, it's not a Medieval simulation game. The world is much closer to a storytelling world, as in fairy tales and Tolkien and modern Ren Fairs. As such I don't think it owes more to the historical Middle Ages than it does to the modern storytellers.

An example: showing my age here, I played DnD way back in the '70s, with the original 3 booklet set. I hid those from my parents like they were porn because the art in particular was so sexist. Not surprisingly, there was roughly a 1:25 female to male ratio among players I knew. But the 5th Edition has taken that issue head on. It may not be "historically accurate" - whatever that means when you have faeries and elfs - but it's a whole lot more fun for female players.

I'd like to see more racial diversity for the same reason. Making Dominion more inclusive doesn't take away from it being still a really great game.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 01:40:25 pm by ElisabetK »
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Donald X.

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #143 on: April 04, 2019, 02:36:14 pm »
+7

Maybe Donald can shed some light on Tormentor and Devil's Workshop? Others that maybe were based on instructions could be Plan, Wild Hunt, Skulk, Flag Bearer, Hideout and Barracks.
If the women all had chainmail bikinis, I suspect someone would be complaining about that too.

We got the sketch for Tormentor.

DXV: Tormentor / Imp / Devil's Workshop sketches are fine, except the Tormentor should be a woman.
Claus: I wanted to make her look like an old and strict kind of female inquisitor. Would you prefer her to be younger and prettier?
DXV: Old is fine; I just couldn't tell from the sketch that it was a woman.

Tormentor is a woman. Devil's Workshop is a man. Time does not permit looking them all up for you.

At the very beginning the artists just got card titles, and didn't always draw the right things, and almost always drew men. I started having artist notes, with the separate part about the expansion theme noting that we didn't want all men. The artists almost always drew men. For Guilds Jay decided to have only women do the art. They drew mostly men. From Adventures on, the artist notes have specified gender for every card supposed to be depicting someone, with half women. The varying %'s on those sets, that are never 50%, show how well the artists followed these instructions, and how often they added people somewhere unexpected and hey made it all men, or drew a crowd scene where everyone is a man. And, to a lesser degree, how much you-all assume any unclear figure to be a man.
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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #144 on: April 04, 2019, 02:57:51 pm »
0

Maybe Donald can shed some light on Tormentor and Devil's Workshop? Others that maybe were based on instructions could be Plan, Wild Hunt, Skulk, Flag Bearer, Hideout and Barracks.
If the women all had chainmail bikinis, I suspect someone would be complaining about that too.

I mean, someone is already complaining about the needlessly sexy Vampire.
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #145 on: April 04, 2019, 03:32:29 pm »
0

Tormentor is a woman. Devil's Workshop is a man. Time does not permit looking them all up for you.

Thanks. The one I'm most curious about is Flag Bearer. (After that, Skulk.)

I'm not sure why Market is listed as "both". If that figure with the money is supposed to be female it's clearly not doing the job, lol. That card is truly a wasted opportunity.

I'm quite sure that frightening creature with the purse is a woman. The headdress gives it away.

ElisabetK

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #146 on: April 04, 2019, 05:53:49 pm »
0

Not so sure about the headdress. I assumed it was a coif with a pillbox hat or a hat with a wide band. Something like this picture of Dante (who I'm pretty sure is male!)
https://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/a/andrea/castagno/2_famous/7dante.html


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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #147 on: April 04, 2019, 05:58:37 pm »
+2

While we're talking about art confusions, here's something I've always wondered: Is the Count the wrinkly grey guy or the other guy?
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ElisabetK

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #148 on: April 04, 2019, 07:55:37 pm »
+4

The one who's counting "One!"?
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Jeebus

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Re: Male and female cards (again)
« Reply #149 on: April 04, 2019, 07:55:58 pm »
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Not so sure about the headdress. I assumed it was a coif with a pillbox hat or a hat with a wide band. Something like this picture of Dante (who I'm pretty sure is male!)
https://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/a/andrea/castagno/2_famous/7dante.html



Okay, I concede that it's not as straight-forward as I thought. But I still don't think that the kind of bag hat that Dante is wearing is the same as on Market. To me it looks like the Market person is wearing a fillet, which was typically worn by women.
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