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[EFHW]

Wouldn't it be to scum's interests as well? They'll know immediately whether he wins with Chaos or Harmony whereas we need to see both flips to be sure. That could be two mislynches just to find out how faust's winds blow.

In fact, I think you're a smart enough player that you ought to have gotten there before I did given that I'm distracted by work.  vote: EFHW

I wasn't suggesting lynching the people he mentions, and I think the information is more important to town, so that we know when his loyalties are likely to shift.  What do you think scum would do with the information?  They would know before faust would, actually.  But I can't really think of how it helps them.  Can you?

[EFHW]

Possible benefits of knowing:

1. If we eventually found out both were town (or both scum), then faust would become unambivalently allied with town. 

2. Scum would not want them to both flip no matter what.  We might be able to use that for scum-hunting based on how people vote/make cases. 

3. It constrains their nk choices.  We don't know if that is good or bad for us re: PR's, but in general fewer choices for scum is good for town.

4.  If we learn there is exactly one scum in the two, then we know to lynch/distrust faust immediately.  If scum know faust is allied with town, they might kill him, saving an nk of a townie.

5. If there are town players in his choices, they can use knowing they are town to help them identify faust's alignment.

Here's a thought problem for you - is there any benefit for a scum player chosen by faust to fakeclaim town, to make town and faust think he is aligned with town when actually he isn't?  Being named by faust could put a scum player in a pretty pickle.

[EFHW]

re: #4, that actually doesn't work.  If they kill faust we know there are either two town or two scum.  So if he is town-aligned, telling us protects him from the nk -- unless we think scum would be willing to give up the advantage of an ally and would nk him even if he was on their side.

[chairs]

Possible benefits of knowing:

1. If we eventually found out both were town (or both scum), then faust would become unambivalently allied with town. 

- This is only if this would be the 4th of his objectives to be secured. If I understand correctly, he needs 4 of his 7 goals met to win, so if he doesn't meet exactly 3 others, this whole conversation is probably moot. On that note, support: faust so we can get one down.

2. Scum would not want them to both flip no matter what.  We might be able to use that for scum-hunting based on how people vote/make cases. 

- I don't know. If I were scum, I think I'd be okay with seeing them both flip if they were both town. Obviously if they were both scum, or 1/1, I'd be more hesitant. I'll concede there's an argument here about how scum would react to this information.

3. It constrains their nk choices.  We don't know if that is good or bad for us re: PR's, but in general fewer choices for scum is good for town.

- Is this argument because of point 2? If so, I'll stand by "depends on how scum want to play it", but again, that's a thought I hadn't considered.

4.  If we learn there is exactly one scum in the two, then we know to lynch/distrust faust immediately.  If scum know faust is allied with town, they might kill him, saving an nk of a townie.

- Alternately, we could get sufficient objectives secured for faust that he doesn't have to rely on winning with scum to get his 4th objective.

5. If there are town players in his choices, they can use knowing they are town to help them identify faust's alignment.

- I don't think I understand.

Here's a thought problem for you - is there any benefit for a scum player chosen by faust to fakeclaim town, to make town and faust think he is aligned with town when actually he isn't?  Being named by faust could put a scum player in a pretty pickle.

I don't think a scum player would claim scum except if we were in a situation where faust needs to vote with scum to win (e.g. lylo/mylo) and needs to vote according to the scum player's wishes to secure that objective.

[faust]

Though condition seven means he's really more like a traitor who only has a certain chance of actually being scum.

It also makes it hard for him to have loyalty to town, though he would like to, b/c he knows who he picked, and as flips happen he will start to get an idea of which side he should support.

faust would you be opposed to telling us the two people you picked?  It was before the game started, right?  So you were choosing blind?

Yeah. Well, I kinda chose people that I thought were likely to flip early so that I know what's what.

[Hydrad]

Though condition seven means he's really more like a traitor who only has a certain chance of actually being scum.

It also makes it hard for him to have loyalty to town, though he would like to, b/c he knows who he picked, and as flips happen he will start to get an idea of which side he should support.

faust would you be opposed to telling us the two people you picked?  It was before the game started, right?  So you were choosing blind?

Yeah. Well, I kinda chose people that I thought were likely to flip early so that I know what's what.

My bet is Pit is one of them.

[Hydrad]

Hmm maybe me as the other?

[chairs]

I would've guessed Joseph.

[ashersky]

If Faust claims his two, it is supremely manipulate by scum.  Efhw listed some ways.  I can think of others.

Faust should claim each as they are lynched, I think.  Like, after hammer but before flip.

[Joseph2302]

If Faust claims his two, it is supremely manipulate by scum.  Efhw listed some ways.  I can think of others.

Faust should claim each as they are lynched, I think.  Like, after hammer but before flip.

I agree, faust should not claim. The between hammer and flip seems good idea.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 1.7

e (1): Hydrad
chairs (1): e
Joseph2302 (2): Awaclus, EFHW
EFHW (4): ashersky, faust, Joseph2302, chairs
faust (1): Seprix
Pit (1): IG
ashersky (1): Pit

Not Voting (2): ADK, Ghacob

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at 8 May, 5 PM Forum Time.

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: stop talking about faust and start scumhunting.

I don't really like the EFHW case, it's just as likely that she didn't read her PM that closely as a legitimate scumslip. I also kind of like vote: chairs, for jumping on a popular wagon and being chairs.

[chairs]

I didn't even realize I'd jumped on a wagon, lol.

But why you gotta hate? Is it because tables doesn't play Mafia anymore?

[Seprix]

vote: stop talking about faust and start scumhunting.

I don't really like the EFHW case, it's just as likely that she didn't read her PM that closely as a legitimate scumslip. I also kind of like vote: chairs, for jumping on a popular wagon and being chairs.

Yeah, why are people trying to lynch ol' 4-letter? I don't see a reason.

I like Faust much better, he's so scummy he's practically sold his soul to the devil!

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: stop talking about faust and start scumhunting.

I don't really like the EFHW case, it's just as likely that she didn't read her PM that closely as a legitimate scumslip. I also kind of like vote: chairs, for jumping on a popular wagon and being chairs.

Yeah, why are people trying to lynch ol' 4-letter? I don't see a reason.

I like Faust much better, he's so scummy he's practically sold his soul to the devil!

...are you trying to go for the "so off the wall he can't actually be scum" thing?

[2.71828.....]

Actually, in my experience town chairs will hop on wagons.

vote: Awaclus

I am sure we will find him scummy by D3, might as well lynch him now

[Awaclus]

Actually, in my experience town chairs will hop on wagons.

vote: Awaclus

I am sure we will find him scummy by D3, might as well lynch him now

But every time you guys find me scummy, I'm actually town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I still need one more support I think. Is faust fully supported now?

[EFHW]

Actually, in my experience town chairs will hop on wagons.

vote: Awaclus

I am sure we will find him scummy by D3, might as well lynch him now

But every time you guys find me scummy, I'm actually town.

have you ever been scum?

[EFHW]

Actually, in my experience town chairs will hop on wagons.

vote: Awaclus

I am sure we will find him scummy by D3, might as well lynch him now

chairs' didn't just jump on, actually. He had a reason.

[Seprix]

I still need one more support I think. Is faust fully supported now?

support: IG

[Ichimaru Gin]

yeeeeeeeeeeees.

[Hydrad]

Actually, in my experience town chairs will hop on wagons.

vote: Awaclus

I am sure we will find him scummy by D3, might as well lynch him now

But every time you guys find me scummy, I'm actually town.

have you ever been scum?

I remember he was scum in blarnia with me. I have a feeling like he was scum before that also but I can't remember the game

[Hydrad]

faust you mentioned your supports weren't going up? Are they still at 0?

[Seprix]

vote: stop talking about faust and start scumhunting.

I don't really like the EFHW case, it's just as likely that she didn't read her PM that closely as a legitimate scumslip. I also kind of like vote: chairs, for jumping on a popular wagon and being chairs.

Yeah, why are people trying to lynch ol' 4-letter? I don't see a reason.

I like Faust much better, he's so scummy he's practically sold his soul to the devil!

...are you trying to go for the "so off the wall he can't actually be scum" thing?

Just saw this. I've always wanted to make that Faustian joke, so I did it. I went a bit overboard though.