Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ashersky]

So, another thought as far as Joseph's fake claim...

So, per his current version of his role, he can poison players, but if they are attacked by scum before dying, the poison is negated.  And then, he claimed his targets in thread, so scum can negate the poison if they want, just by attacking.

So, if that was a true role, and Joseph knows this, why would he agree to claim his targets in thread?  He's given scum all the knowledge and power -- if he targeted town (probable) scum just thanks him for the extra kills.  If he targeted scum, scum just attacks scum and they don't die.

There was no town reason for him to do what we did, if he really had that town role.  He didn't even try to argue against the claim call. 

So many crazy scum things.

And, just as an icing on the cake, this is plain misleading. Scum cannot attack scum because they may not attack their own partners and don't know whether the rest is scum. Also, if that's really what you think, why not bring it up BEFORE Joseph claims anything?

This is a blatant lie or a scum slip.  Scum can 1000000% kill their partners in any normal mafia game, so why would this be different?  If they can't think game, it's because you asked and found out.

[ashersky]

And how incredibly fucking convenient that your result confirms Joseph's role?

[ashersky]

And in your breakdown, you leave out (conveniently) the most likely scenario of all: 4) faust lied.

[Witherweaver]

So, another thought as far as Joseph's fake claim...

So, per his current version of his role, he can poison players, but if they are attacked by scum before dying, the poison is negated.  And then, he claimed his targets in thread, so scum can negate the poison if they want, just by attacking.

So, if that was a true role, and Joseph knows this, why would he agree to claim his targets in thread?  He's given scum all the knowledge and power -- if he targeted town (probable) scum just thanks him for the extra kills.  If he targeted scum, scum just attacks scum and they don't die.

There was no town reason for him to do what we did, if he really had that town role.  He didn't even try to argue against the claim call. 

So many crazy scum things.

And, just as an icing on the cake, this is plain misleading. Scum cannot attack scum because they may not attack their own partners and don't know whether the rest is scum. Also, if that's really what you think, why not bring it up BEFORE Joseph claims anything?

This is a blatant lie or a scum slip.  Scum can 1000000% kill their partners in any normal mafia game, so why would this be different?  If they can't think game, it's because you asked and found out.

Wait, is this really true?  I remember seeing somewhere that it wasn't allowed.

[ashersky]

This is the most caught-scum-scrambling scenario I've ever seen.

I don't blame you, though.  Joseph really bungled the claim and its cover afterward.

[ashersky]

So, another thought as far as Joseph's fake claim...

So, per his current version of his role, he can poison players, but if they are attacked by scum before dying, the poison is negated.  And then, he claimed his targets in thread, so scum can negate the poison if they want, just by attacking.

So, if that was a true role, and Joseph knows this, why would he agree to claim his targets in thread?  He's given scum all the knowledge and power -- if he targeted town (probable) scum just thanks him for the extra kills.  If he targeted scum, scum just attacks scum and they don't die.

There was no town reason for him to do what we did, if he really had that town role.  He didn't even try to argue against the claim call. 

So many crazy scum things.

And, just as an icing on the cake, this is plain misleading. Scum cannot attack scum because they may not attack their own partners and don't know whether the rest is scum. Also, if that's really what you think, why not bring it up BEFORE Joseph claims anything?

This is a blatant lie or a scum slip.  Scum can 1000000% kill their partners in any normal mafia game, so why would this be different?  If they can't think game, it's because you asked and found out.

Wait, is this really true?  I remember seeing somewhere that it wasn't allowed.

I cannot think of a game since I've been here where a mod decided to disallow partner (or self) kills.  There's plenty of strategic space there.

Anyway, I don't know that this is really the point.

My point was Joseph has a million holes in his claim.  Faust's point is he's Joseph's partner trying to save him by discrediting the player who has caught them.

[ashersky]

Look, the scum narrative for Joseph/Faust is super clear.  There have been shit claims (Joseph #1, the backpedal, admitting he targeted XP who died and was the key to our plan, Faust claiming to directly save him); they have been tied together for self-preservation (faust's non-stop, non-sensical defense of Joseph, faust's quick hammer of town, faust claiming a result to save Joseph after he's caught out -- which is why Faust wanted to go last, btw).

The scum narrative for me?  You have to think I'm the biggest asshole in the world...fake fight, fake quitting, someone got Arch to fake seek a replacement, fake a result....all for what?  It's pretty early to be suiciding.

And to argue it's mylo?  No one, definitely not me, thought that at all.  Faust, as scum, would see it, I guess. Sounds like a signal to his unknown scum partner.

(I will note on the record that you are insulting Archetype's integrity to think he'd help a scum player's ploy by faking a substitution search, and I am personally insulted on his behalf as a regular mod on f.ds and a mod/friend of him specifically.)

[Witherweaver]

I don't know.  I think there is a lot of issues with the scum!Joseph scenario.  I tried make the whole thing work many times..

Okay.. maybe it has to be the case that he and Faust concocted this whole plan from the beginning.. but... why?  Maybe Joseph's role was too scummy to claim?  If you're telling the truth, Joseph pretty much can't have his role name...

Okay let's think.  Manipulative Roles.. XP's would have counted.. that moved "kills" from one player to another.  e's would count.  Godfather type doesn't make sense.. there is no true Cop (I'm the closest thing, but I don't get Results), so I don't think it would be in.  I'm trying to play with a scenario where he either got to use XPs power or has a similar kind of power.  I don't know.. if anyone role other than Hydrad's has been reused, then it would have had to gone to scum that isn't claiming it. 

What is the category for Duplicator? What is the downside of telling us this?

Factional Power maybe?  So use role+factional ability?

Okay, I don't know if those are likely.. let's go back to Joseph faking the entire thing.  Why? My original thought was to indicate to the other scum team who to kill.  There needs to be some kind of communication for that to work, or hoping that the other team picks up on vibes.. and his claim is that being Attacked would negate Poison, so that motivates the other team not to Attack his target.

Is it just a bad claim?  Like he felt he had to make up a role that excused being able to kill?  That's kind of like claiming Vig as an SK or something, which seems like something some quick searching on Mafiascum will advise you against.  But look, if that happened, I'm pretty sure Faust would talk him out of it.  And if Faust is unknown to him, then (scum!)Faust isn't 100% certain Joseph is scum, so he's probably not going to go out on a line like this.    Well, unless he got some kind of result on e that he can be absolutely certain he can attribute to a scum!Joseph.  But, still, if Faust is covering Joseph here, it's much more likely that they're teammates. 

So, back to the original... Faust and Joseph come up with this fakeclaim together.. Faust plans ahead of time to "verify" Joseph.  But.... why?  How is this claim good for them?

PPE: Ash's

[Witherweaver]

Look, the scum narrative for Joseph/Faust is super clear.  There have been shit claims (Joseph #1, the backpedal, admitting he targeted XP who died and was the key to our plan, Faust claiming to directly save him); they have been tied together for self-preservation (faust's non-stop, non-sensical defense of Joseph, faust's quick hammer of town, faust claiming a result to save Joseph after he's caught out -- which is why Faust wanted to go last, btw).

This isn't so much the thing that's hard to fit a narrative for, but rather what came before this.  The plan in the first place.

[Witherweaver]

Also.. that Joseph claimed "Weak Poisoner".  Specifically with a modification "Weak" that fits with the theme of other roles... Blind Follower, Partial Governor.  If it's fake then they would have had to realize to throw on a modifying word, and that would require a lot of foresight and one of his partners to also have a modifying word.. which basically leaves me and Ash.  And I don't think Ash would be a partner.  He could have just thought to throw it on, but it still doesn't sound like a made up role to me.

Maybe scum was given fake role claims, but does that ever happen?

Okay, Ash.. honestly, pretend for a second that you don't have a result on Joseph, and go back and look at Day 1.  Doesn't it remind you of how PPS stumbled through explaining his role in Dice Mafia?

[Witherweaver]

Well I guess that last question is pointless if you're scum.  If you're town, well, then you have a really confusing result on Joseph if he's town.. okay, that's probably a pointless question to you. 

Was e's action actually verified?  He could be more of a redirector than  bodyguard.

Who did e claim to target last night?  He claimed it failed?

[ashersky]

What came before was I got a mass claim to happen D1.  They couldn't discuss what to say so Joseph had to make it up.  From there, it just rolled on.  Who discusses "when we mass claim, let's say..." On N0?  We never actually mass claim and someone or three always has the "can't claim now, cAn claim tomorrow" excuse.

As for Joseph's real role?  Dunno.  Could have an effect that weakens players (messes with results, ability to use, etc.).  That's manipulative and sort of fits his way of claiming a poisoner.  He mentioned that knife/bleeding thing, which was really weird.

[ashersky]

Well I guess that last question is pointless if you're scum.  If you're town, well, then you have a really confusing result on Joseph if he's town.. okay, that's probably a pointless question to you. 

Was e's action actually verified?  He could be more of a redirector than  bodyguard.

Who did e claim to target last night?  He claimed it failed?

I gave all sorts of claiming advice to scum in Dune, fwiw.

If anyone manipulated results, seems like it'd be Silver.  His role is manipulative, right?

[Witherweaver]

What came before was I got a mass claim to happen D1.  They couldn't discuss what to say so Joseph had to make it up.  From there, it just rolled on.  Who discusses "when we mass claim, let's say..." On N0?  We never actually mass claim and someone or three always has the "can't claim now, cAn claim tomorrow" excuse.

As for Joseph's real role?  Dunno.  Could have an effect that weakens players (messes with results, ability to use, etc.).  That's manipulative and sort of fits his way of claiming a poisoner.  He mentioned that knife/bleeding thing, which was really weird.

I don't know, I've spoken about fake claims (not necessarily planning for a mass claim, but just in case I have to claim) in the scum QT on Night 0 before.  We did it in our first game together. 

That knife/bleeding thing was really weird.

[ashersky]

As for claiming something specific and having Faust confirm, as they are partners that is easy.

[Witherweaver]

Well I guess that last question is pointless if you're scum.  If you're town, well, then you have a really confusing result on Joseph if he's town.. okay, that's probably a pointless question to you. 

Was e's action actually verified?  He could be more of a redirector than  bodyguard.

Who did e claim to target last night?  He claimed it failed?

I gave all sorts of claiming advice to scum in Dune, fwiw.

If anyone manipulated results, seems like it'd be Silver.  His role is manipulative, right?

I think Silver is a straightup Roleblocker.  Players X, Y, and Z are blocked against Player A.

[ashersky]

Unless he lied, I mean.  I don't really have that kind of read on him though.

[Witherweaver]

Still no thoughts on the "special forum capabilities" that were needed for this game?

[Witherweaver]

Rereading Day 1.. Faust still gutreads town.  Ichi gutreads scum.  Ash reads null.  e is feeling less town.  Silver more.  Joseph more (just on how he posted, not taking into account all this other stuff).  Awaclus null, his sort of indignant responses seem a bit more like town, though.  Chairs null.

[silverspawn]

Look, the scum narrative for Joseph/Faust is super clear.  There have been shit claims (Joseph #1, the backpedal, admitting he targeted XP who died and was the key to our plan, Faust claiming to directly save him); they have been tied together for self-preservation (faust's non-stop, non-sensical defense of Joseph, faust's quick hammer of town, faust claiming a result to save Joseph after he's caught out -- which is why Faust wanted to go last, btw).

Uhm... hm. I agree that it does sound like a plausible narrative. Though, I at least disagree that his defense of Joseph was nonsensical.

The scum narrative for me?  You have to think I'm the biggest asshole in the world...fake fight, fake quitting, someone got Arch to fake seek a replacement, fake a result....all for what?  It's pretty early to be suiciding.

This is also quite compelling. I actually think there is a narrative for lying town here though, that'd make you less of an asshole.

(I will note on the record that you are insulting Archetype's integrity to think he'd help a scum player's ploy by faking a substitution search, and I am personally insulted on his behalf as a regular mod on f.ds and a mod/friend of him specifically.)

well, but this really far fetched. I very much doubt that Archetype is/was being offended.

[Witherweaver]

Actually, no.  You know what?  Fuck this.

vote: faust

Let's make this what you want it to be, a showdown between us.  You've been hounding me since yesterday, using passive-aggressive crap and all to try to run this.  I'm only still playing because a arch couldn't find a replacement.  But that's what you wanted, right?

So let's do it.  Let everyone choose who they trust.  Both our names have come up as possible reps for f.ds at the Mafia Championships.  Here it is, then.  Loser refuses to be put forward as a candidate.  Let's see who really deserves it.

I am confident that my result validates my strong read on Joseph and his crazy backpedal on his claim on D2 with his convenient targeting.  Your crazy defense of him throughout this whole thing ties you to him so strongly, it's partnership.  You lost Hydrad, knew you were in bad shape, have to keep your partner around. 

So, here it is.  You and Joseph vs. me.  Everyone, pick a side!  Whose instincts do you trust? 

If you lynch me, fine.  I'll know I'm past my prime as a player and I don't deserve to be considered as f.ds's rep.  But as of right now, I definitely believe in myself, and I think you should, too.

The gauntlet is thrown, just like you wanted, faust.  Let the one the community thinks is the best man win.

Ash, you never answered my question.  Why is this You vs. Faust at this point?

[Archetype]

I'm back! Huge, huge thanks to sudgy for taking care of things while I was away.

Vote Count 1.0

Joseph (1): 2.7
ashersky (1): faust
faust (2): ashersky, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (5): Witherweaver, Joseph, Awaclus, silverspawn, chairs

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends Tuesday, April 7th at 10:30 AM.

[ashersky]

Ash, you never answered my question.  Why is this You vs. Faust at this point?

Sorry, I wanted to.

It's me vs. faust + joseph.  I was voting Joseph first, based on my read and my result.  Faust came in with his vote and "see ya later doods" seagull poop post, basically stating his intent to play this through to the end.  I reacted.

I mean, is anyone going to honestly argue that no one is lying and there's a rational explanation to this?  Look at my result post and look at faust's.  Tell me which one looks like a planned-out, thought-through fake claim to get someone lynched.

So, either I'm lying or he's lying, right?  So it's me vs. him.

If the sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of lynching Joseph first, that'll happen instead.

[ashersky]

I want to stress again just how incredibly scummy, disengenous, low-down, loathesome, and heretical faust's post was.  He uses a holier-than-thou tone to "break down" the ONLY possible options, but leaves out the most important one, that he himself could be lying.

It's the biggest misdirection ploy in a single post I've ever seen.  It's like:

"The answer to the math question about adding whole, positive numbers is 8.  The only possible way to get 8 by adding whole positive numbers is 1+7, 2+6, and 3+5."

Faust lying is 4+4, and he left it out.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, you never answered my question.  Why is this You vs. Faust at this point?

Sorry, I wanted to.

It's me vs. faust + joseph.  I was voting Joseph first, based on my read and my result.  Faust came in with his vote and "see ya later doods" seagull poop post, basically stating his intent to play this through to the end.  I reacted.

I mean, is anyone going to honestly argue that no one is lying and there's a rational explanation to this?  Look at my result post and look at faust's.  Tell me which one looks like a planned-out, thought-through fake claim to get someone lynched.

So, either I'm lying or he's lying, right?  So it's me vs. him.

If the sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of lynching Joseph first, that'll happen instead.

But your "me or him" post came *before* Faust claimed his night action.  He had only voted you.  How could you know there wasn't a town!Faust explanation?