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[ashersky]

What happens if we lynch one of your targets? 

[Ichimaru Gin]

What happens if we lynch one of your targets?

Then whomever I chose to protect is protected from all attacks tonight.
Conversely, if we don't lynch one of my targets, then it takes one less attack to kill them.

[ashersky]

You haven't claimed who's protected, right?  That's a good thing either way.

[ashersky]

What happens if we lynch one of your targets?

Then whomever I chose to protect is protected from all attacks tonight.
Conversely, if we don't lynch one of my targets, then it takes one less attack to kill them.

What if your target was already attacked?  Do they just die?

[Ichimaru Gin]

You haven't claimed who's protected, right?  That's a good thing either way.

Yes. I have not claimed my protection target.

What if your target was already attacked?  Do they just die?

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. It's phrased basically like "the amount of attacks needed to kill them that night will be reduced by one" if one of my lynch choices doesn't go through. Which makes me think that they would have to be attacked at least once on that specific night in order to die...but I'm not 100% positive. I could ask I guess. That'd be kind of weird if it went down to zero attacks needed to kill them, but I guess it's possible.

[Joseph2302]

So, another thought as far as Joseph's fake claim...

So, per his current version of his role, he can poison players, but if they are attacked by scum before dying, the poison is negated.  And then, he claimed his targets in thread, so scum can negate the poison if they want, just by attacking.

So, if that was a true role, and Joseph knows this, why would he agree to claim his targets in thread?  He's given scum all the knowledge and power -- if he targeted town (probable) scum just thanks him for the extra kills.  If he targeted scum, scum just attacks scum and they don't die.

There was no town reason for him to do what we did, if he really had that town role.  He didn't even try to argue against the claim call. 

So many crazy scum things.

Because not claiming them seems scummy when everyone else is claiming their entire roles. Plus, if I've hit scum, scum have to waste half a kill to save their scum partner.

Also, no-one's considered this: There could have been a redirection, so Ash didn't actually see my role, but someone else's.

[faust]

Vote: ashersky I have things to say, soon.

[Witherweaver]

If Joseph hit scum as scum, then he hit an unknown partner.  That means to negate, they have to attack themselves.  (Or Josephs team has to change their mind on their read.). I'm not sure its even possible to target yourself with a kill (or half kill) as scum.  I brought this up yesterday.

[ashersky]

Vote: ashersky I have things to say, soon.

Ah, the desperation of a partner, so very afraid of losing his only hope.

This is like some new type of projected OMGUS.

[ashersky]

If Joseph hit scum as scum, then he hit an unknown partner.  That means to negate, they have to attack themselves.  (Or Josephs team has to change their mind on their read.). I'm not sure its even possible to target yourself with a kill (or half kill) as scum.  I brought this up yesterday.

You are right.  I don't know if Hydrad's partner can self-target, but I assume the pair can target each other.

In any normal mafia game, scum can kill each other if they want.

[ashersky]

Actually, no.  You know what?  Fuck this.

vote: faust

Let's make this what you want it to be, a showdown between us.  You've been hounding me since yesterday, using passive-aggressive crap and all to try to run this.  I'm only still playing because a arch couldn't find a replacement.  But that's what you wanted, right?

So let's do it.  Let everyone choose who they trust.  Both our names have come up as possible reps for f.ds at the Mafia Championships.  Here it is, then.  Loser refuses to be put forward as a candidate.  Let's see who really deserves it.

I am confident that my result validates my strong read on Joseph and his crazy backpedal on his claim on D2 with his convenient targeting.  Your crazy defense of him throughout this whole thing ties you to him so strongly, it's partnership.  You lost Hydrad, knew you were in bad shape, have to keep your partner around. 

So, here it is.  You and Joseph vs. me.  Everyone, pick a side!  Whose instincts do you trust? 

If you lynch me, fine.  I'll know I'm past my prime as a player and I don't deserve to be considered as f.ds's rep.  But as of right now, I definitely believe in myself, and I think you should, too.

The gauntlet is thrown, just like you wanted, faust.  Let the one the community thinks is the best man win.

[2.71828.....]

ooooh, this is fun. 

I need to reread and think about all the stuffs, but more importantly I need to see faust's claim

[silverspawn]

uhm, I don't think this is such a good idea. here is why:

-> I don't like to publicly vote for people. I also don't particularly like it if others do it, though I guess that's not my business.
-> I don't think faust ever meant for this to become a contest between you two.
-> If one of you is town and the other scum, this contest is very unfair, as town can make genuine arguments while scum has to fabricate everything
-> Just because I think faust is right this game does not mean I don't think you're still the better player, or vice versa. This should also go for everyone else. Linking this with the contest includes factors in said contest which don't belong there.

[silverspawn]

You seem to forget the third point in particular. You're acting as if faust arguing against your case is terrible play and/or anti town, but neglect the fact that, if he is scum, he's just doing his job.

[2.71828.....]

I am not a fan of two of my townreads being "the only option" today.  Also not a fan of making this duel (if you will) a symbol of something more than it is.  Because it has nothing to do with who is the better mafia player overall.  It has nothing to do with which player we intrinsically trust more (which is what some of the verbiage in Ash's post almost makes it sound like).

It is a question of who between faust and Ashersky, based on their play from this game, we think more likely to be scum.

Also, before anyone says that they don't like the tone of Ash's post, I want to say I love it.  It is such a well-constructed gauntlet-throwing.  It pulls on emotions, claims, and the implications thereof.  Perfect mafia argument, in my opinion.

ppe:2

[Witherweaver]

Actually, no.  You know what?  Fuck this.

vote: faust

Let's make this what you want it to be, a showdown between us.  You've been hounding me since yesterday, using passive-aggressive crap and all to try to run this.  I'm only still playing because a arch couldn't find a replacement.  But that's what you wanted, right?

So let's do it.  Let everyone choose who they trust.  Both our names have come up as possible reps for f.ds at the Mafia Championships.  Here it is, then.  Loser refuses to be put forward as a candidate.  Let's see who really deserves it.

I am confident that my result validates my strong read on Joseph and his crazy backpedal on his claim on D2 with his convenient targeting.  Your crazy defense of him throughout this whole thing ties you to him so strongly, it's partnership.  You lost Hydrad, knew you were in bad shape, have to keep your partner around. 

So, here it is.  You and Joseph vs. me.  Everyone, pick a side!  Whose instincts do you trust? 

If you lynch me, fine.  I'll know I'm past my prime as a player and I don't deserve to be considered as f.ds's rep.  But as of right now, I definitely believe in myself, and I think you should, too.

The gauntlet is thrown, just like you wanted, faust.  Let the one the community thinks is the best man win.

Loser of what, exactly?  Honestly if Faust is scum, he's played this game pretty fantastically so far and exactly emulated his town meta.  I have a hard time believing Faust is scum here. 

I'm not quite sure of a narrative for you, either. 

[Witherweaver]

That is, I'm not sure of a scum!Ash narrative.

[Joseph2302]

I am not a fan of two of my townreads being "the only option" today. 

Me neither, I'm still thinking both are town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Linking this with the contest includes factors in said contest which don't belong there.

Yeah I agree with this. Let what happens in this game stay relevant to this game. My siding with Ash here is just about who I trust this game.
That being said, I am so totally going to vote: faust

Honestly if Faust is scum, he's played this game pretty fantastically so far and exactly emulated his town meta.  I have a hard time believing Faust is scum here. 

I disagree. He may have fooled almost everyone else, but I've had a scumread on him since D1. Unfortunately, no one ever seemed on board with lynching him and was also content to follow his plans and claim order and whatever.

I stand with Ash!

[Witherweaver]

Man, you just made up a scum read out of the blue on Day 1.  You can't honestly expect us to place any weight on that.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Man, you just made up a scum read out of the blue on Day 1.  You can't honestly expect us to place any weight on that.

How can you think faust is town?

That may be the way you see it, but I disagree. I don't expect people to sheep me all the time or that my reads and/or cases are the most convincing, but I feel my intuition on faust was solid. It wasn't OMGUS--I felt the particular way he tunneled me was very insincere, and he was constantly twisting my words. Plus a bunch of other suspicious stuff I can't remember right now.

I don't require your approval or belief in my reads, just the acknowledgement that they existed. You could be faust's partner for all I know.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And man, a lot of people seemed to think my original post about faust was really good. I hope you're scum, because it's kind of sad if you really think town!me just "makes stuff up" to vote people.

[Witherweaver]

Man, you just made up a scum read out of the blue on Day 1.  You can't honestly expect us to place any weight on that.

How can you think faust is town?

That may be the way you see it, but I disagree. I don't expect people to sheep me all the time or that my reads and/or cases are the most convincing, but I feel my intuition on faust was solid. It wasn't OMGUS--I felt the particular way he tunneled me was very insincere, and he was constantly twisting my words. Plus a bunch of other suspicious stuff I can't remember right now.

I don't require your approval or belief in my reads, just the acknowledgement that they existed. You could be faust's partner for all I know.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit.  This is what happened.

Faust: comments on everyone's claim, places a vote on Ichi.
You: Freaks out and screams bloody hell about being tunneled. 

Seriously go read yourself sometime.

Now you could claim Faust's vote on you was a little questionable, as it was fairly non-committal and a bit disjoint from his prior analysis, and I could see that coming from scum.  But he was in no way tunneling you.  He made a vote, you overreacted, and you guys argued.  "Tunneling" was a result of your actions.  How often do you legitimately drop a vote against someone when they're irrationally arguing with you?

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, town!Faust is a bit more pushy, directorial, and unwilling to consider other views/opinions than scum!Faust.  His insistence of claiming and trying to work out plans with actions revolving around the claim is what makes me think he's town.  The plan itself can come from other alignment, but his treatment of the plan throughout the game looks like town to me.

See Dice Mafia.

I can be wrong about this, but it's what my read is.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Look. Just because I overreacted initially doesn't mean that faust didn't have some incredibly suspicious behavior as time went on. Seriously, people aren't used to this by now?

I don't recall accusing him of tunneling me in my initial post. And no, you're absolutely wrong. I didn't use the word tunneling until a whole irl day later--when faust continued to exclude my role from any of his plans or analysis and just say I was scum over and over. And he was tunneling me at that point, and continued to.

You're overly simplifying this, and I think you know it.

PPE: 1