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[chairs]

I can see the ADK argument, and I think we're stalling on IG (which doesn't necessarily indicate scum given the setup). vote: ADK

[Witherweaver]

Awaclus, why have you been particularly townie?  Confirming your role doesn't really mean anything, c.f., roles, alignment, independence.  That you lurk as town in RMM games is not particularly compelling, and it's especially trivial to emulate as either alignment.  What do you do as scum in RMM?

I don't have a scum read on you, but that argument is kind of lacking.

[Witherweaver]

Faust, why Ichi now?  If anything the recent back and forths have left me feeling that he's being more genuine.

[Witherweaver]

Of note: If ADK and Ichi are both scum, they're most likely not known partners.  This is based on their scuffle on Day 1, which would look pretty weird from partners, I think.  This also implies one would have to be Hydrad's partner.

[Awaclus]

What do you do as scum in RMM?

I think I'd probably explain my votes. It's what I do as scum in regular games, but somehow I got away with it in the Blarnia Mafia.

[Witherweaver]

What do you do as scum in RMM?

I think I'd probably explain my votes. It's what I do as scum in regular games, but somehow I got away with it in the Blarnia Mafia.

But then it's easy enough to just not explain your vote, as scum.

[Awaclus]

What do you do as scum in RMM?

I think I'd probably explain my votes. It's what I do as scum in regular games, but somehow I got away with it in the Blarnia Mafia.

But then it's easy enough to just not explain your vote, as scum.

It's not as easy as you would think!

[Witherweaver]

What do you do as scum in RMM?

I think I'd probably explain my votes. It's what I do as scum in regular games, but somehow I got away with it in the Blarnia Mafia.

But then it's easy enough to just not explain your vote, as scum.

It's not as easy as you would think!

Oh, you mean you're having trouble?

[ashersky]

Why are you all ignoring the single counterclaim issue that came from the entire mass claim thing?

One of Joseph and silverspawn is lying.  We should be lynching there.

[2.71828.....]

Why are you all ignoring the single counterclaim issue that came from the entire mass claim thing?

One of Joseph and silverspawn is lying.  We should be lynching there.

Joseph was lying.  He admitted it (finally). 

[ashersky]

Why are you all ignoring the single counterclaim issue that came from the entire mass claim thing?

One of Joseph and silverspawn is lying.  We should be lynching there.

Joseph was lying.  He admitted it (finally).

I mean, one of them is lying about who they targeted last night.  Yes, we know Joseph lied about his role, but I'm saying the two of them contradicted each other's night actions.  So one of them is lying.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Could someone point me to where this happened? Because I think I missed it.

[faust]

Why are you all ignoring the single counterclaim issue that came from the entire mass claim thing?

One of Joseph and silverspawn is lying.  We should be lynching there.

Joseph was lying.  He admitted it (finally).

I mean, one of them is lying about who they targeted last night.  Yes, we know Joseph lied about his role, but I'm saying the two of them contradicted each other's night actions.  So one of them is lying.

That's not true with how Joseph phrases his power now.

[faust]

Faust, why Ichi now?  If anything the recent back and forths have left me feeling that he's being more genuine.

Well, in your exchange, I feel more towny on you and less so on Ichi, so I voted Ichi over you.

[ashersky]

I tried to poison XP. However, he died, so I must have been roleblocked.

okay, this is interesting. I did actually target Joseph tonight - but I didn't name XP, so it should not have stopped him (reminder, I can only roleblock against a number of people, in this case 3). I named faust, IG, and myself.

and before anyone asks, I chose to do this because

1) I didn't want to be poisoned
2) my power isn't actually that great
3) IG and faust are my biggest town reads, and I think poisoning them would have been a mistake, but I could see Joseph doing it
4) I'm not actually convinced Joseph is town based on his role. I could easily see him being scum with an X-shot modifier to his poisoning, and as an alternative to his attack

needless to say, my power shouldn't have changed anything tonight, as I did not name XP.

[ashersky]

That's not true with how Joseph phrases his power now.

So Joseph claims something, Silverspawn counterclaims him, then Joseph changes his claim to match the counterclaim.

Tell me again why we aren't lyching Joseph yet?

[faust]

That's not true with how Joseph phrases his power now.

So Joseph claims something, Silverspawn counterclaims him, then Joseph changes his claim to match the counterclaim.

Tell me again why we aren't lyching Joseph yet?

Because I can confirm whether or not he's town tonight.

[Witherweaver]

That's not true with how Joseph phrases his power now.

So Joseph claims something, Silverspawn counterclaims him, then Joseph changes his claim to match the counterclaim.

Tell me again why we aren't lyching Joseph yet?

Because I can confirm whether or not he's town tonight.

Hmmm... there's a chance he has the role Poisoner that does something different than what he described.

[ashersky]

That's not true with how Joseph phrases his power now.

So Joseph claims something, Silverspawn counterclaims him, then Joseph changes his claim to match the counterclaim.

Tell me again why we aren't lyching Joseph yet?

Because I can confirm whether or not he's town tonight.

No, you can't.  No one claimed alignment cop, so no one can confirm alignment.

And why would you want to risk another night for this?  This isn't like confirming a doctor claim or a cop claim.  We're talking about a (now) double killer claim.  Why would we want to "confirm" that by having him kill two people?  The likelihood that he actually hits scum is low.

This is the vig that targeted the lynchpin in our plan for Night 1.  He admits to trying to kill XP.  Now he has two kills.  He admits to lying about his role.  He changed his claim when he was caught by a counterclaim.

This is ridiculous.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Joseph

I agree with Ash and think he's a bajillion more times trustworthy than faust right now. faust has defended Joseph super, super heavily, and I don't like it. I also don't like e and whoever else thinking it's a good idea to let Joseph kill more people.

[faust]

So let's run this through. What are the scenarios for scum!Joseph?

1. He actually has the role he claims (or some variant thereof)

First let me state that I think this unlikely because giving scum an extra kill is quite impossible to balance. But okay, let's for a moment work under the assumption that this is possible. What does he do last night? He targets Xerxes with it. I mean, it's conceivable that he lied about this, but really why? With roles confirming stuff, this is dangerous. So we'd have to assume he tells the truth about targeting Xerxes. This makes little sense for scum. Scum targets the player they attack? Why? It robs them off a night kill - and it doesn't even look good on them.
This case is hardly possible. Occam's razor tells us to dismiss it.

2. He lied about this role.

Okay. So he might have another role. This is something we can make sure I can uncover tonight, with little possibility of me dying. But I doubt even this is the case. I mean, what sort of super-crappy fakeclaim is this? If he lied, why claim to have targeted Xerxes? He did the night attack, and is afraid of being Tracked/Watched? There's no such role. Why claim something that in order to work needs help of some other player? Maybe to insinuate that someone is lying. But if this is the case, then why do a full turn before it even plays out? Sorry, but I don't really see this either.
Okay, so there's this chance that he has a role Poisoner that does something different. This would be extremely misleading, like close-to-bastard misleading. It's convention here that mafiascum names are mafiascum roles, and breaking that should at least be announced pregame. And Arch knows about Posioning, he used it in RMM11 I think.

So there's no conceivable scenario where Joseph is scum for me. Still, if you want to be really sure, I can check him tonight. But why would we lynch him? Makes zero sense to me.

[faust]

vote: Joseph

I agree with Ash and think he's a bajillion more times trustworthy than faust right now. faust has defended Joseph super, super heavily, and I don't like it. I also don't like e and whoever else thinking it's a good idea to let Joseph kill more people.

Can you come up with actual arguments instead of dislike?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why are you defending Joseph so heavily?
Why is it a good idea to let him poison more people?

[faust]

Why are you defending Joseph so heavily?
Why is it a good idea to let him poison more people?

I'm defending Joseph because he's town. At least have the decency to respond to my arguments.

[faust]

It's a good idea to let him poison more people because town-controlled kills are good.