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[A Drowned Kernel]

I don't get it, this just seems like a random continuation of RVS.

You guys are okay lynching Joseph because you think it's more likely scum would make that joke than town would make that joke? I disagree, but more importantly, I think it was just a dang joke. We're lynching someone over a joke?

It seems like it's this joke that's causing the votes, I haven't seen too much about Joseph's reactions as a reason for the vote. I don't get how this is good grounds for a lynch, it's not impossible he's scum but I don't think we've honestly learned anything about him.

I'm okay with lynching joseph because when people gave him negative attention for the joke, his response was to keep joking, and then responded by OMGUS voting me. This is also pretty terrible:

It could be a viable wagon if more people joined. Seriously, he's using as an argument against voting for him "remember that game where I got to L-1 super quickly and fakeclaimed and it screwed things up? You don't want that happening again, do you?"

I'm saying we should try to consider everyone, not just me. There seems to be a tendency on here to assume I'm scum- I guess I don't help this by claiming scum. But I think it's beneficial to look at other candidates too for scum.

PPE:1

He's not arguing that he shouldn't be lynched, he's basically just appealing to "it's too early for a lynch!" It's never too early for a lynch, in my opinion. If someone does something overtly scummy right off the bat (and I think that repeatedly making jokes about being scum is overtly scummy) then they should be lynched right off the bat.

[Twistedarcher]

Ichi seems to be legitimately sold on Joseph being scum on the basis of one post. I...don't know. It seems terribly weak to me, but he definitely seems convinced, and could absolutely be from a towny perspective. There's a shockingly short amount of time between Joseph's "scum like me" post and people deciding that Joseph is absolutely 100% today's lynch.

There's nothing about his viewpoint that makes me think it's scum trying to manufacture a case vs. convinced town, though. There's only about 5 posts to go off of, I was hoping there was more by Ichi when I went back to re-read him.

His case has scummy characteristics but it doesn't necessarily make him scum is what I'm trying to say, I guess.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I just don't see Joseph trying here at all. He claims scum. And how does he expect to avert people's scumreads on him for all of his "joking"? By doing the same thing and purposefully acting scummy--he's embracing it. This is our lynch today people.

Scummy post #2 -- the same traits as scummy post #1. People will try to avoid lynches as town or scum, there's nothing in Joseph's behavior that you've pointed out that I think is even close to an exclusive scum behavior, but once again you're attributing this to Joseph clearly being scum.

I think that Ichi's point is that joseph doesn't seem to be working hard against his own lynch. Again, most of what he's appealed to is the idea that we're too early in the game.

[Twistedarcher]

I don't get it, this just seems like a random continuation of RVS.

You guys are okay lynching Joseph because you think it's more likely scum would make that joke than town would make that joke? I disagree, but more importantly, I think it was just a dang joke. We're lynching someone over a joke?

It seems like it's this joke that's causing the votes, I haven't seen too much about Joseph's reactions as a reason for the vote. I don't get how this is good grounds for a lynch, it's not impossible he's scum but I don't think we've honestly learned anything about him.

I'm okay with lynching joseph because when people gave him negative attention for the joke, his response was to keep joking, and then responded by OMGUS voting me. This is also pretty terrible:

It could be a viable wagon if more people joined. Seriously, he's using as an argument against voting for him "remember that game where I got to L-1 super quickly and fakeclaimed and it screwed things up? You don't want that happening again, do you?"

I'm saying we should try to consider everyone, not just me. There seems to be a tendency on here to assume I'm scum- I guess I don't help this by claiming scum. But I think it's beneficial to look at other candidates too for scum.

PPE:1

He's not arguing that he shouldn't be lynched, he's basically just appealing to "it's too early for a lynch!" It's never too early for a lynch, in my opinion. If someone does something overtly scummy right off the bat (and I think that repeatedly making jokes about being scum is overtly scummy) then they should be lynched right off the bat.

You're right on #2 -- the argument of "I may be scummy, but let's look elsewhere!" is definitely scummy.

PPE -- what about that points to Joseph being scum, though?

[Ichimaru Gin]

From experience. Getting early, sincere suspicion on you as scum is very frustrating. I'm fairly certain he wasn't banking on people finding him scummy this soon into the game. And so far, his reactions seem to fit pretty well with him being frustrated scum.

PPE: 1

(Sorry, this is getting broken up into multiple posts since I'm having trouble formatting on my tablet).

Here's scummy post #1. Getting frustrated at suspicion definitely isn't a scum trait or a town trait, it happens to everyone -- no one likes being lynched, especially when the arguments appear to be fairly empty. What's scummy about this post is that Ichi's taking a neutral action and trying to turn it into Joseph being scummy. Rather than looking at the evidence and making a conclusion, this reads to me like Ichi starting with the conclusion (Joseph = scum) and fitting the evidence to that conclusion.

This can come from both scum trying to manufacture reasons (since they don't have gut reads or anything of the such), or town who's already made up their mind and wants to "prove" their read is correct.

Obviously you either missed or chose to ignore my last sentence. There are different kinds of frustration--and different ways to react to suspicion on you. So far, I have found Joseph's strategy of continuing to joke about being scummy (I understand that he has stopped doing this in recent posts) difficult to see why town would continue to act in that manner. Why would town do this when it is obviously anti-town and was what got him suspected in the first place? Plus, his play just feels a little apathetic. He's not really defending his behavior at all. It's more like a passive defense and a hope that people's attention goes elsewhere. He pretty much admits that too.

I just don't see Joseph trying here at all. He claims scum. And how does he expect to avert people's scumreads on him for all of his "joking"? By doing the same thing and purposefully acting scummy--he's embracing it. This is our lynch today people.

Scummy post #2 -- the same traits as scummy post #1. People will try to avoid lynches as town or scum, there's nothing in Joseph's behavior that you've pointed out that I think is even close to an exclusive scum behavior, but once again you're attributing this to Joseph clearly being scum.

So basically what this comes down to is you don't think Joseph's behavior is a scumtell for him. I disagree. Interesting that you single me out for having the same reasons that other people are voting him. This just feels bad to me.

I'm open to lynching someone else today, but Joseph has acted in a very scummy matter--no matter how much you and WW say his behavior is a null tell, it doesn't feel that way to me. People have taken strong stances on him--and I feel like his partners are working to dissipate that suspicion.

TLDR: you're singling me out from the group that all has pretty similar reasons for voting for Joseph. The question is why?
PPE: ADK I agree completely.

PPE: TA. I can understand your point of view I guess. I feel pretty zealous that Joseph is scum. That being said, I'm not someone that believes in cutting days prematurely short, or going with the first real wagon that shows up D1. It's not impossible for me to be convinced that Joseph isn't scum--it isn't even unlikely. I joined the wagon to help force reactions out of him, and so far those reactions haven't really convinced me at all.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.5:

Joseph2302 (4): Awaclus, Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernel, Egork
Seprix (4): Witherweaver, Joseph2302, silverspawn, chairs
Witherweaver (1): faust
A Drowned Kernel (1): XerxesPraelor
Twistedarcher (1): Hydrad

Not Voting (2): Seprix, Twistedarcher

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 a.m. on February 12, 2015.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I guess I would have expected (or at least hoped) town!joseph be better about scumhunting, rather than just defending himself (defending yourself isn't scummy, though he didn't even do very much of that). I know it's early, but if you're town than your own wagon can be one of the most informative things there is, since you know there's a wagon on town. Most of his posts seem to have been along the lines of "I don't get why this is happening, it's too early to lynch someone guys!", though.

PPE: What's the point of pushing up a wagon if you're not willing to go through with it?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I was and am willing to go through with it--as I said, his reactions have only strengthened my scumread on him. The important part is that the person you vote for thinks that you will go through with it so they feel that they are under genuine pressure. This is why artificial votes aren't really that useful.

[Joseph2302]

I stopped doing the scum thing about 3-4 posts ago, so I don't think it's conclusive evidence.
Also, Seprix's "claim or I'll lynch you" seems super-scummy to me, I just don't think it's the kind of post a town player would make. In my opinion, the wagon evidence on me is weak, I started claiming scum but it was when everyone was doing RVS. So what happens when you lynch me, I'm town, another town dies at night? You begin to wish that D1 had been longer, to get lots more information.

I don't feel like I've been super scummy, the wagon on me seems weak, and I think Seprix's reactions to me were super-scummy. I like my vote on Seprix for this reason.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I stopped doing the scum thing about 3-4 posts ago, so I don't think it's conclusive evidence.
Also, Seprix's "claim or I'll lynch you" seems super-scummy to me, I just don't think it's the kind of post a town player would make. In my opinion, the wagon evidence on me is weak, I started claiming scum but it was when everyone was doing RVS. So what happens when you lynch me, I'm town, another town dies at night? You begin to wish that D1 had been longer, to get lots more information.

I don't feel like I've been super scummy, the wagon on me seems weak, and I think Seprix's reactions to me were super-scummy. I like my vote on Seprix for this reason.

You were still making "I'm scum jokes" when multiple people, including me, were making and discussing serious votes on people.

[Seprix]

I don't get Mafia and how it works. Mafia is social. I am not a social person. I wrote an extremely long thing about it, but even I have common sense enough to know that's not cool to all of you.

I doubt I'll return for a third game, but that is a failure on my part, even if it's something I can't really help.

[silverspawn]

I don't get Mafia and how it works. Mafia is social. I am not a social person. I wrote an extremely long thing about it, but even I have common sense enough to know that's not cool to all of you.

I doubt I'll return for a third game, but that is a failure on my part, even if it's something I can't really help.

Well, I'm not social, I like mafia.

What post are you referring to?

Also, sorry to hear that.

[silverspawn]

though I'm mostly not social because formalities annoy me, and least I hope that's the reason, and there aren't many of that in this forum, so it's probably a different case.

[silverspawn]

*at least

[Seprix]

I don't get Mafia and how it works. Mafia is social. I am not a social person. I wrote an extremely long thing about it, but even I have common sense enough to know that's not cool to all of you.

I doubt I'll return for a third game, but that is a failure on my part, even if it's something I can't really help.

Well, I'm not social, I like mafia.

What post are you referring to?

Also, sorry to hear that.

Oh. Right. I wrote some super long post over this 'issue' I have, but Mafia is not the place for it. I don't really think there's any place for it.

To put it bluntly, I have Asperger's Syndrome. I don't get social things nearly as much as you all do. This is why I post and say awkward things, and I know I have at some point, even if I don't know what it is.

[Twistedarcher]

Hey Seprix, not sure what you're referring to, I didn't notice anything unusual happen at all. I don't think anyone here truly understands how mafia works, we all have been frustrated with the game and its workings. Getting found scummy is just (a very frustrating) part of the game, it happens to everyone. Whatever you want to do is cool with us, don't worry

(FYI -- I have a brother who has Asperger's as well. I know he definitely struggles with forum mafia, but he enjoys it as well, since he's a very logical person and finds it a great way to work through things logically -- he's had times where it's been too much for him, though).

[Seprix]

Hey Seprix, not sure what you're referring to, I didn't notice anything unusual happen at all. I don't think anyone here truly understands how mafia works, we all have been frustrated with the game and its workings. Getting found scummy is just (a very frustrating) part of the game, it happens to everyone. Whatever you want to do is cool with us, don't worry

(FYI -- I have a brother who has Asperger's as well. I know he definitely struggles with forum mafia, but he enjoys it as well, since he's a very logical person and finds it a great way to work through things logically -- he's had times where it's been too much for him, though).

It's okay. Don't let it distract you. I just felt it was time to say that.

[silverspawn]

Have you posted it in this forum? I'd like to read it.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, the issue I have is that ramping up a wagon and getting someone to claim really quickly is bad, because it lets scum know where our PRs bad.  Well, sometimes you can catch scum in fake claims, but as a general practice it's not too good.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, the issue I have is that ramping up a wagon and getting someone to claim really quickly is bad, because it lets scum know where our PRs bad.  Well, sometimes you can catch scum in fake claims, but as a general practice it's not too good.

That should say "where our PRs are".

[A Drowned Kernel]

I mean, the issue I have is that ramping up a wagon and getting someone to claim really quickly is bad, because it lets scum know where our PRs bad.  Well, sometimes you can catch scum in fake claims, but as a general practice it's not too good.

You'll never lynch anyone if you're afraid of putting anyone at L-1, and I think that a quick lynch is generally better than when the day drags on, the game stalls, and we go for a "compromise lynch" at the last second.

[Joseph2302]

I mean, the issue I have is that ramping up a wagon and getting someone to claim really quickly is bad, because it lets scum know where our PRs bad.  Well, sometimes you can catch scum in fake claims, but as a general practice it's not too good.

Yes, that's basically the issue, if I'd claimed there and claimed a PR (power role), then if I'm town, scum knows where one of town's most valuable players is.
And if I'm scum, then the only direct way you'd know I'm scum is if someone else claimed PR, but then they become a target for scum. Although it is good to catch the scum.

Simplifying mafia a lot, you usually want to keep your PRs hidden, so scum can't kill them easily.
(The above discussion is all hypothetical, and does not reflect anything on my actual role in this game)

That's basically why everyone suddenly decided you were scummy, because the move wasn't a good town move. I'm now willing to accept that Seprix reply #207 was not intended as scummy, based on the posts after it, so I'm going to Unvote.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, the issue I have is that ramping up a wagon and getting someone to claim really quickly is bad, because it lets scum know where our PRs bad.  Well, sometimes you can catch scum in fake claims, but as a general practice it's not too good.

You'll never lynch anyone if you're afraid of putting anyone at L-1, and I think that a quick lynch is generally better than when the day drags on, the game stalls, and we go for a "compromise lynch" at the last second.

I think it's pretty clear I'm not saying don't put people at L-1.  You've been a part of these recent games where it's all "Hurry up and get a claim", and I think you'll agree that it's not really that great.

[Witherweaver]

Fastish, or at least not slow, is fine and good.. blitz not so much.

[Joseph2302]

I mean, the issue I have is that ramping up a wagon and getting someone to claim really quickly is bad, because it lets scum know where our PRs bad.  Well, sometimes you can catch scum in fake claims, but as a general practice it's not too good.

You'll never lynch anyone if you're afraid of putting anyone at L-1, and I think that a quick lynch is generally better than when the day drags on, the game stalls, and we go for a "compromise lynch" at the last second.

On the other hand, there have been quite a few recent quicklynches in games that haven't gone the right way. I'm in favour of taking a few days to consider lots of options, and then lynching. However, I think a last minute compromise lynch is often bad.

Also, in answer to someone's claims about me continuing to use "I'm scum jokes", I only mentioned it twice today, and it was in direct response to this:

is joseph even that easy of a mislynch? I think most of the time when we lynched him he was scum.

I've been lynched twice, and both times as scum. I was town in M53, and survived somehow. But this time it's different, I'm not scum. But so far, Day 1 has been pretty much the same as last game.

Let's discuss other possibilities for scum people.

if you tell me the names of your partners, we can discuss them.

This is clearly a sarcastic reply to a post I didn't believe to be serious, since the premise was that I'm scum.


PPE: 2, and I know some of it is pretty much what WW has just said.