Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LastFootnote]

Played my first game with Magic Mirror today. It was a 4-player game and I was the only one with a 5/2 split, so I opened Redistrict/Magic Mirror. Nobody else got one except one other player near the end of the game. Sometimes I forgot to save an Action card to discard, but hey, $2. At least once I had more Actions than I could play and it was great. The rest of the time, it was a tough decision whether or not to play an Action to gain a copy of it. I gained a fair few Terraces with it. Anyhow, I won the game, so probably it's not super weak. The real question is whether it's any fun to discard an Action rather than playing it. That's what killed most of the previous iterations of this concept for me.

[pacovf]

You could try a version that gains a copy of an action card in your play area and work your way down from there if needed. It would be sexier, so it will get more playtesting because your friends will be more prone to buying it.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Also, the opposite of Mint should be Yours.

This may or may not be proof that you are or are not married.

[dondon151]

You could try a version that gains a copy of an action card in your play area and work your way down from there if needed. It would be sexier, so it will get more playtesting because your friends will be more prone to buying it.

I agree, this seems good. You can potentially water it down by discarding the Action card in play or by decreasing the +$ bonus to +$1 or even +$0 a la Horn of Plenty.

[TheOthin]

You could try a version that gains a copy of an action card in your play area and work your way down from there if needed. It would be sexier, so it will get more playtesting because your friends will be more prone to buying it.

I agree, this seems good. You can potentially water it down by discarding the Action card in play or by decreasing the +$ bonus to +$1 or even +$0 a la Horn of Plenty.

The thing is, Horn of Plenty already is a +$0 Treasure that lets you gain a card and gets more freedom the more of your deck you can play on that turn. Would another card in that vein really be worthwhile?

[pacovf]

You could try a version that gains a copy of an action card in your play area and work your way down from there if needed. It would be sexier, so it will get more playtesting because your friends will be more prone to buying it.

I agree, this seems good. You can potentially water it down by discarding the Action card in play or by decreasing the +$ bonus to +$1 or even +$0 a la Horn of Plenty.

The thing is, Horn of Plenty already is a +$0 Treasure that lets you gain a card and gets more freedom the more of your deck you can play on that turn. Would another card in that vein really be worthwhile?

Agree with this, actually... IIRC, we've basically got three treasures that gain cards for you: Horn of Plenty, Talisman, and Hoard. The first requires you to play lots of cards, the second requires you to buy specific cards and can only gain cheap-nonVictory cards, the last requires you to buy Victory cards and gains you a specific card (gold). So, MM has to find a niche somewhere in there.

EDIT: not to mention that the new expansion might have some other treasure that LFN is purposefully dodging

[dondon151]

The thing is, Horn of Plenty already is a +$0 Treasure that lets you gain a card and gets more freedom the more of your deck you can play on that turn. Would another card in that vein really be worthwhile?

Most cards get better the more of your deck you can play on your turn.

[TheOthin]

The thing is, Horn of Plenty already is a +$0 Treasure that lets you gain a card and gets more freedom the more of your deck you can play on that turn. Would another card in that vein really be worthwhile?

Most cards get better the more of your deck you can play on your turn.

But most cards don't explicitly look at the cards you've played before them on your turn to directly determine their effect. They get their greater effect through interaction with the actual function of the cards you've played before.

[Awaclus]

Also, the opposite of Mint should be Yours.

This may or may not be proof that you are or are not married.

I'm pretty sure he is or is not married.

[AJD]

Yours - $? Action - Attack
Each other player trashes a treasure card costing $3 or more and gains one costing at most $3 less than it, putting it into his hand (or reveals a hand with no treasures costing $3 or more).

Ours
Trash a Treasure card from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $6 more than it, putting it in your hand. Each other player may trash a Treasure card from his hand and gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more than it, putting it in his hand.

[LastFootnote]

OK, it turns out that the decision of whether or play or gain a copy of an Action card sucks. I knew this going in, but I gave it one more shot. Anyhow, I have a revision.

Magic Mirror
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, you may discard 2 Treasures. If you do, gain a copy of a card you have in play.

EDIT: Haha, I just realized it can always gain a copy of itself (if you have the Treasures to discard). Awesome!

[Witherweaver]

That seems pretty cool at first glance.  I'd be interested in knowing how it plays.

[Jack Rudd]

I'd be particularly interested in how it plays on a Grand Market board, where discarding Coppers is often a non-penalty anyway.

[TheOthin]

I'd be particularly interested in how it plays on a Grand Market board, where discarding Coppers is often a non-penalty anyway.

Combine that with its ability both to help buy Grand Markets and to duplicate them once you start loading up...

[LastFootnote]

I'd be particularly interested in how it plays on a Grand Market board, where discarding Coppers is often a non-penalty anyway.

Combine that with its ability both to help buy Grand Markets and to duplicate them once you start loading up...

Although it means you have to keep some Coppers around (or discard better Treasures), which makes it harder to buy Grand Markets when you don't draw Magic Mirror. And of course it doesn't help you buy your first Grand Market. It's still a combo, but doesn't seem too crazy on the face of it.

[Joseph2302]

I'd be particularly interested in how it plays on a Grand Market board, where discarding Coppers is often a non-penalty anyway.

Combine that with its ability both to help buy Grand Markets and to duplicate them once you start loading up...

Although it means you have to keep some Coppers around (or discard better Treasures), which makes it harder to buy Grand Markets when you don't draw Magic Mirror. And of course it doesn't help you buy your first Grand Market. It's still a combo, but doesn't seem too crazy on the face of it.

It gives you $2, which is $2 towards cost of first Grand Market. Although you do have to keep coppers, which is a penalty, so I don't think it's too crazy.

[Asper]

So if i get this right, it's either a Silver or a Horn of Plenty for cards you have. I assume it's balanced, but i get the feeling that this is just "Mint for actions" with a bit of added complexity (Treasure type, coin production, discard clause...) so they are more different. The basic concept is compelling, if a little redundant, but the stuff beyond it feels... added.

[LastFootnote]

So if i get this right, it's either a Silver or a Horn of Plenty for cards you have. I assume it's balanced, but i get the feeling that this is just "Mint for actions" with a bit of added complexity (Treasure type, coin production, discard clause...) so they are more different. The basic concept is compelling, if a little redundant, but the stuff beyond it feels... added.

Well, the fact that it's a Treasure matters because otherwise you'd be unable to duplicate terminal Actions without a village. Yes, you could have "play an Action then gain a copy of it" or some such, but the Treasure is more flexible in the same way Scheme is: you don't have to always collide the Magic Mirror with the Action you want to duplicate; you can draw the Mirror later.

Because it's a Treasure, the +$2 is nice just because it's nice when Treasures produce coins; that's ostensibly their purpose. It's also nice to differentiate it from Horn of Plenty a bit. But setting those two things aside for a moment, let's compare it to a version that produces $0 and doesn't require you to discard Treasures. That version would be stronger when it's strong and weaker when it's weak, and it's hard to say whether than would be more or less fun. I think it would certainly be crazier. They could really easily gain themselves and then gain a bunch of copies of some powerful non-terminal Action (Baker, Grand Market, Highway, etc.) really quickly. The version I laid out (with +$2) makes it way harder to go crazy because you actually have to have 2 Treasures in hand to discard for each card you want to gain. And at the same time it's better when you fail to match it up with a card you want more of. So it's less swingy than a version worth $0, for better or worse.

My thought process was actually something like, "It would be good if this produced at least $1, but I think it might be too strong if it did that and also gained you a great card. Ah, what if you have to discard a Treasure to 'pay' for the card you gain?" And then I decided that discarding two Treasures made it a bit more meaningful; something you actually had to shoot for, you know? So it's worth $2 instead of $1.

I haven't tested it yet, so I'm not sure it's balanced. I've printed it out, though, so I hope to test it sometime next week at the latest.

[Asper]

So if i get this right, it's either a Silver or a Horn of Plenty for cards you have. I assume it's balanced, but i get the feeling that this is just "Mint for actions" with a bit of added complexity (Treasure type, coin production, discard clause...) so they are more different. The basic concept is compelling, if a little redundant, but the stuff beyond it feels... added.

Well, the fact that it's a Treasure matters because otherwise you'd be unable to duplicate terminal Actions without a village. Yes, you could have "play an Action then gain a copy of it" or some such, but the Treasure is more flexible in the same way Scheme is: you don't have to always collide the Magic Mirror with the Action you want to duplicate; you can draw the Mirror later.

I'm aware that the fact it's a Treasure buffs the card by a fair bit. Not only will you never draw it dead, but the point when you draw it doesn't matter, either. I just feel it's unnecessary for the card idea. Not that i never did a treasure that couldn as well have been an action... And you have a point, HoP is a pretty un-treasure-y official card that seems to have that type for buffing mostly. Anyhow, my alternative would have just been Mint with a +action attached:

+1 Action
You may reveal an Action card from your hand. Gain a copy of it.

Edit: Fixed a double negative.

[LastFootnote]

I'm aware that the fact it's a Treasure buffs the card by a fair bit. Not only will you never draw it dead, but the point when you draw it doesn't matter, either. I just feel it's unnecessary for the card idea. Not that i never did a treasure that couldn as well have been an action... And you have a point, HoP is a pretty un-treasure-y official card that seems to have that type for buffing mostly. Anyhow, my alternative would have just been Mint with a +action attached:

+1 Action
You may reveal an Action card from your hand. Gain a copy of it.

Huh. That's a good point. I can't recall whether I'd ever thought of that version before. For what it's worth, if you look at the Treasure version I posted above, it does not specify Action card like the version in the OP does. So I could do: [+1 Action; You may reveal a non-Victory card from your hand; gain a copy of it], but that seems nuts, doesn't it? It's like a non-terminal Mint that also works on Action cards. Of course it doesn't trash your Coppers on-buy like Mint does, which is arguably Mint's primary function. Maybe it wouldn't be so crazy.

Anyway, I've printed the Treasure version so I might as well test it out. It does fit with Enterprise's subtheme of cards that care about Treasures and despite the "added" stuff, it isn't too terribly complex (3 lines of text). I'm cautiously optimistic.

[GendoIkari]

It seems to me that the non-terminal action version is just too similar to Mint to be interesting. If it can gain non-Victory, it's strictly better than Mint once it's in your deck (which is OK, an on-buy effect still matters), but it just still seems like a buffed Mint. I mean, adding +1 action to a non-terminal is a pretty big buff. So I like the current treasure version. Deciding if you want to discard 2 treasures or not is an interesting decision.

[LastFootnote]

So I got to test the latest version (above) in two games today, and it was a bit of a dud. Once again, only I bought it. I'll probably test it a bit more, but I have a simpler version that I may try as well. Please let me know what you think.

Investment/Magic Mirror
Types: Treasure
Cost: $6
Worth $1. When you play this, gain a copy of a card you have in play.

[popsofctown]

I don't see anything wrong with not playing actions feeling not fun at first.  Buying green cards that makes your deck suckier is not fun at first.

[LastFootnote]

I don't see anything wrong with not playing actions feeling not fun at first.  Buying green cards that makes your deck suckier is not fun at first.

Well, it feels worse; I don't know what to tell you. Usually it's an Action you could have played, and you bought that Action so that you could play it.

Buying a Province feels good because it's a reward for finally getting an $8 hand. That same feeling just doesn't apply to the version of Magic Mirror in the OP.