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[yed]

Code: [Select]

Hamlet, Pearl Diver, Throne Room, Council Room, Embassy, Haggler, Merchant Guild, Mint, Mystic, Forge
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20141017/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1413552775246.txt

I have misplayed it by buying too many TR early, but is the BM embassy really better than engine here? Maybe it is: The problem is, that there is now way to slow down your opponent.

[Witherweaver]

There seems to be an issue that the only way to increase your hand size with the engine---Council Room and Embassy---help the big money player.  Well, Embassy in the sense that the Silvers don't hurt them like they would an engine.  BM Embassy is already fairly fast, and the draw from opponent's Council Room could accelerate it by a couple of turns.

[flies]

hamlet/embassy doesn't increase your handsize without throne room support, and council room helps your opponent.  My inclination would be to go for a single province semi-engine, going for an early council room with an eye toward mint trashing.  your opponent was lucky to get 5 provinces by turn 14, but you made some mistakes: probably exchange one of the early TR buys for silver, aim to green sooner, plus you had only one council room for draw making for an unreliable engine.  trashing down to exactly $8 was questionable too.

(take all this with a grain of salt as I've been off my game recently.)

[silverspawn]

my intuition is that the engine wins. council room helps the BM player significantly, but the payload for the engine is just so massive. your game isn't very informative I think, you took way too long to get to the first council room.

[flies]

anybody want to play this right now?

[Awaclus]

anybody want to play this right now?

Sure, if you have the cards. I'll be in Outpost.

[shark_bait]

$3/$4 you have to go BM.  There is just no other option. 

With the $5/$2 there is a chance for engine.  I think that it is entirely dependent on whether or not your opening Haggler gets $5.  If you hit it, then you get Council Room/TR (picking up Hamlet with your other turn after the 1st reshuffle).  Then, you need your CR to line up and get a nice Mint turn.  If you manage $9 you can get Mint/TR and TR/Silver whiling trashing most all of your copper.  I don't like forge as much as the Mint because 1st you need a big hand to get Forge and then you need another big hand to Forge everything away.  Mint saves at least 1 turn and possibly 2-3.  At that point you've got about 2 TR, CR, 2xHamlet, Haggler, Mint, Silver and 3xEstate.  Ideally you would get this big turn on either 5 or 6 and then be off to the races with a trim deck.  This is a strong engine and should easily outpace Embassy/BM.  The challenge is that this is an engine where you need good draws for implementation.

[DG]

The problem is a common one with 5/2 hagglers. They sometimes struggle with low income hands. There is an option to open with mystic and it would be a handy card to have later but I'm not sure it gives the right pace of engine development.

[Awaclus]

I think the engine wants both Mint and Forge, to clear out the junk super fast and then gain Golds and turn them and Hamlets into Provinces or do other endgame tricks with Forge.

Also, basically whoever has the best draws will win the game if one goes for the engine and the other goes for BM, and hitting or not hitting $5 with the opening Haggler certainly plays the main role in this.

[flies]

Here are 4 games awaclus and I played on this board link.  we had 5/2 splits on 3 out of the four games, and in each case that player got haggler and went engine.  first two games opened identically, the last one 5/2 went first and, with ideal early draws (hitting $5 w/haggler T3 and then $7 w/haggler on T5, then trashing 4 coppers to mint T8) the engine player mopped up, forging to end the game with 4 provinces T11 - this game was clearly an outlier, but it does show that the engine can be explosive.  evenly distributed wins for engine and BM.  When the engine won, it had minted/haggled golds as payload with 1 CR and 2 embassies for draw (games 2,4), but this didn't work with a 3/4 opening (game 3).  Merchant Guild did not work as an engine payload (game 1).

I think shark_bait has it aright when he says that a lot hinges on 5/2 and then hitting $5 with haggler early.  if you can do that, you're in very good shape.  I dno how to build the engine best with a 3/4 opening, but I think the engine can't afford to avoid treasure.  When the engine won, it opened 5/2 and hit $5 in the first reshuffle; when it hit $5 with 5 coppers (buying council room, though I am now thinking mint would've been better given that there was a silver and a haggler in the deck), the win was narrower.  I agree that Mint and Forge are important for the engine.  The engine needs gold in order to catch up to the BM player, and Forge also helps in this regard, eating the deck in the endgame, forging $5's into duchies, or gold+hamlet/estate or 5+silver or 2xTR into province - or province into province if you should somehow manage to get ahead.